View Full Version : Carabiner as Toggle?
Hangandy
02-15-2011, 22:46
Hey all. I usually have used an S-Biner to attach my Whoopie Slings. Last night I couldn't find one of my S-Biners and used a regular carabiner. It dawned on me that I could just hook it through my web strap and then use it as a toggle. Worked great. Seems to make more sense than using toggles as I usually will have a biner or two around. Added plus you can still hook things to the biner (though I don't know what or why).
I'm sure I'm not the first, is there a reason this isn't a more common practice?
I think in part its because a straight toggle can quickly and easily slide out of the MSH whereas the teeth and the curve of the biner makes it slightly more difficult to undo in comparison. I have seen it done and have tried it myself and it worked great but for the reasons I mentioned I like a straight toggle. JMO.
Hangandy
02-15-2011, 23:13
Makes sense that would be quicker. OTOH biners would store quicker and safer to your pack. Kind of 6 of one 1/2 dozen the other. I think I'm stickin' to the biner just cuz I figured out (though obviously not 1st) myself. And I always have lots of them sittin' round. :)
Biners are convenient because they are something many carry anyways. They don't even have to be climbing biners to work as a toggle.
SmokeBait
02-16-2011, 00:00
Hangandy, no reason not to use a carabiner. Anything of sufficient strength to hold the MSH will work. As stated, lots of folks prefer a toggle for ease of removal, small size and light weight. I can see where a biner could have advantages too. There is no real right way, just the way that works best for you.
You certainly can use a carabiner as your toggle in a marlin spike hitch. What I don't understand is how you were using S-Biners to attach your whoopie slings? Highest rated S-Biner is only 100#.
pig.slayer
02-16-2011, 04:31
I've tried using the micro biner's from Mountain fitter as a "toggle" with dynaglide whoopie slings, Worked fine but had a bit of a fiddle factor, not much though.
I figure the aluminium biner, approx. 4mm x 3mm (thick) would take a good deal of force under a shearing load to fail used in a MSH.
I'm only about 75kgs though.
dragon360
02-16-2011, 09:47
I have used biners as toggles as well as regular straight toggles. I keep going back to the biners because I can lock the end of the whoopie sling through the biner and over the knot ensuring that nothing will slip out on me.
dragon360
02-16-2011, 09:53
Not sure where i found this (had it in some files) but this is what i meant.
That looks like one of those micro beaners can that support a 200 lbs person?
Hangandy
02-16-2011, 10:29
I was using the #5 S-Biner and it held fine.
http://www.niteize.com/collections/s-biner/products/s-biner-stainless-steel-1
I read 100KG on the package which is roughly 220 lbs but then it also says 100 lbs. :confused:
Even then, I was under the impression that the load would be shared across the pair. Is that wrong?
dragon360
02-16-2011, 10:40
Seems to. Ha. So far. I've heard of people using cut off pieces of plastic clothes hangers. from my understanding (and i could easily be wrong) is that the strap and knot take the brunt of the weight and not the toggle - if done properly. Saying that I am only about 160 pds. And I have used fuller biners as well (higher rated climbing).
Hangandy
02-16-2011, 11:01
Dragon360, Thanks for the pic. Exactly what I did.
And after reading the S-Biner package I noticed the disclaimer,
"Warning: Not for use where disengagement could result in bodily injury or property damage. Not for climbing."
So looks like I should be doing it the new way anyway, but for those interested, I am 185lbs and hung fine with some gear in winds from a pair of #5s.
IMO S-Biners are lots stronger than they look (and are rated for).
Timberrr
02-16-2011, 11:26
Like (nearly) everyone, I like the toggle because it's easy to use. I also like being able to hang a small gear bag on my suspension strap, so I just clip a cheapo 'biner on the strap (uphill from the toggle). Now the 'biner is easy to move or put on/take off without having any load on it.
Of course I'm not a gramophobe so carrying both isn't a big deal for me.
My 2c.
You certainly can use a carabiner as your toggle in a marlin spike hitch. What I don't understand is how you were using S-Biners to attach your whoopie slings? Highest rated S-Biner is only 100#.
I use #4 s biners in place of Dutch clips on my webbing I am 250lb and have never had any trouble we did a few tests on the #1's they are rated to 2.5kg(5lb) but it failed at 85kg(190lb( so #4+#5 IMHO are more than strong enough for hammock use!
Not sure where i found this (had it in some files) but this is what i meant.
That looks like one of those micro beaners can that support a 200 lbs person?
Used that way, it can, because it's just being used as a toggle. The stress is not on the 'biner.
I'm not making friends with this subject, but people, please stop using devices in your suspension that aren't rated for the load. Just because it hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it won't. The cost of doing it right is just too low to risk your back.
At a 30 degrees from horizontal hang angle, the load on each side of the suspension is equal to the weight of the person. Less than 30 and the load starts to climb quickly. Shock load easily multiplies the numbers. If a 100# rated device hasn't failed that's because most hardware products have a safety factor built into them.
Sorry if I sound like a jerk but better that than someone gets badly hurt.
I have to agree with Knotty. Lack of failure in the present does not mean lack of failure in the future. Check out this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB46ACfEaQI). I'm sure the first time he tried it, he had no problems but eventually it caught up with him.
dragon360
02-17-2011, 09:34
Are most toggles used rated for the load? Would there be a way to determine it with the aluminum toggles, arrow shafts and such?
Are most toggles used rated for the load? Would there be a way to determine it with the aluminum toggles, arrow shafts and such?
Can't say there are any real ratings for equipment used as toggles. There are reports of carbon arrow shafts failing when used that way. http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24642
dragon360
02-17-2011, 10:04
May keep using my climbing biners for now. I have a couple of smaller ones so...
Knotty, what are you using now?
canoebie
02-17-2011, 10:08
I don't think load is an issue with a toggle if the marlin spike hitch is tied properly. The load should be on the knot.
I agree with Knotty. I check and recheck my suspension and it is all up to spec because I don't want to risk injury to myself or my back. I have used cheap biners without the notch on the gate so they slide out easily as toggles. I like to hang things from them as yet another place to keep stuff.
Works well for me. Gargoyle first introduced me to the idea over a year ago.