View Full Version : DIY Cuben Tarp - minimal sewing, using VHB Tape
SGT Rock
08-02-2011, 22:51
A friend of mine asked me to make him a Cuben Tarp. As some may know, I did mine using VHB tape for most of the work, keeping sewing to a minimum. I think it makes for a stronger tarp overall.
So this time I made a video about it so you DIY guys can see how it is done. Maybe it will help some of you to think through a Cuben Tarp DIY project, maybe it will scare some of you off.
BiFy90s_Zng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiFy90s_Zng
Where did you get your Cuban and what's the weight?
SGT Rock
08-02-2011, 23:05
www.zpacks.com
7.84 ounces (222 grams) for a 8'10"x11' tarp with all the cords for set up.
Fantastic! Thanks for posting this Sgt Rock.
I'm one of those DIY folks that's been sitting on the fence, trying to decide whether to jump into cuben or not. I definitely want the cuben gear, but I didn't want to mess up a bunch of expensive fabric either. This visual is what I needed. Thanks again!
nothermark
08-03-2011, 07:14
Nice video, thanks!
Great job. There is more good information on working with cuben in this video than any other source I can think of, by far. I like the way you did your tie outs. I'm still experimenting with mine, and I may well adopt your technique. Thanks!
You're fortunate to have an assistant. I don't have that luxury, so I've had to find another way to do the long seams. What has worked best is to lay a 4' x 8' piece of masonite on the floor and put a 4' x 4' piece next to it, so I have a work surface 12' long. Then I put one half of the tarp down and pull it taut, fastening it at each end with weights and pieces of painters' tape. I use a long strip of blue painters' tape to mask the edge of the 1" edge that will be bonded, so I can apply the Primer 94 with a small paint brush. The throw-away foam brushes work fine. Then I apply the 9460 VHB tape to the primed area. Because the cuben is held flat, one person can do this quite easily. Then I remove the blue masking tape. Next, I prime a 1" strip on the other half of the tarp in a similar fashion. Then I put the primed edge of the second tarp half over the taped edge of the first half and fasten it in place with weights and tape at each end. The backing paper is still on the VHB tape, but everything is lined up for bonding. Then I carefully start peeling the backing paper off at one end, but instead of pulling it straight back in line with the edge, I pull it at an angle to one side, so I'm pulling it out from between the two sheets of cuben, which are already in contact. To get it started you need to move the weights and lift one corner of the top piece. Once a 3" end of the backing paper is free, you can roll the bond and put the weight back. Then roll the entire seam as you pull the backing out, with the roller following an inch behind the backing as it comes off. If I did have an assistant, I think I would still use this method, with the assistant pulling the backing paper, so I'd have two hands to hold the cuben down ahead of the bonding area and roll it tight immediately after. I use 1" wide tape. A single backing strip is easier to pull than two, but it can be done. :) It's possible to prepare the cuben by trimming the edge with a soldering iron along a metal straightedge just before applying the primer, but using a cutting mat and rolling cutter is just as easy. I have thought about a cutting mat that's 6" wide and 12' long, but I don't do enough of this stuff to justify the expense. (Besides, they don't exist.)
dragon360
08-03-2011, 08:09
Great video - was hoping a few DIY cuben vids would surface sooner than later!
Perkolady
08-03-2011, 08:40
Thanks for doing this video, SGT Rock! I was wondering about this project and that tape, but hadn't seen anything about it yet. WOW! What a project!
Thank you, Sgt. Rock. I've been on the fence about making my own cuben drybags, and this definitely helped clear things up for me in several areas.
A question, though: does the tape work with materials other than cuben (I know you taped the tie-outs with patches, but I'm unsure whether the tape was adhering to the 550 cord or to the cuben patches or both)? For example, Neoprene and nylon? Or do I need to find another type of adhesive and/or sew and then glue patches over the sewn parts?
Also, thank you for your website; it was what originally got me to try hammock camping!
vinnya42
08-03-2011, 09:10
This should be sticky'ed to this page...Great job with the instructions Sgt Rock!
Cuben is just amazing!
VInce
Very nice SGT ..... this should be a sticky for sure
Thank you, Sgt. Rock. I've been on the fence about making my own cuben drybags, and this definitely helped clear things up for me in several areas.
A question, though: does the tape work with materials other than cuben (I know you taped the tie-outs with patches, but I'm unsure whether the tape was adhering to the 550 cord or to the cuben patches or both)? For example, Neoprene and nylon? Or do I need to find another type of adhesive and/or sew and then glue patches over the sewn parts?
Also, thank you for your website; it was what originally got me to try hammock camping!
3M makes many different adhesives for different materials and applications. Search for their technical manuals and spec sheets to see what works with what. They describe materials with varying degrees of "surface energy". Generally it's easier to bond to high surface energy materials (like aluminum). Polyester has moderately low surface energy, but bonding is improved by using their Primer 94. Good luck. There's a lot of material out there, but it's not easy to track down. Think of it as an exercise that will dramatically improve your search skills. Perseverance furthers. :)
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 10:05
Great job. There is more good information on working with cuben in this video than any other source I can think of, by far. I like the way you did your tie outs. I'm still experimenting with mine, and I may well adopt your technique. Thanks!
No problem. I got quite a bit of information from your tie out points experiment. I don't think my tie outs are perfect, but they work. What I think would work better is a wider strip of nylon sewn on with a wider stitching area to distribute the stress across a wider point under the patch. Maybe a 1/2" wide ribbon with both ends sewn under the patch area.
You're fortunate to have an assistant. I don't have that luxury, so I've had to find another way to do the long seams. What has worked best is to lay a 4' x 8' piece of masonite on the floor and put a 4' x 4' piece next to it, so I have a work surface 12' long. Then I put one half of the tarp down and pull it taut, fastening it at each end with weights and pieces of painters' tape. I use a long strip of blue painters' tape to mask the edge of the 1" edge that will be bonded, so I can apply the Primer 94 with a small paint brush. The throw-away foam brushes work fine. Then I apply the 9460 VHB tape to the primed area. Because the cuben is held flat, one person can do this quite easily. Then I remove the blue masking tape. Next, I prime a 1" strip on the other half of the tarp in a similar fashion. Then I put the primed edge of the second tarp half over the taped edge of the first half and fasten it in place with weights and tape at each end. The backing paper is still on the VHB tape, but everything is lined up for bonding. Then I carefully start peeling the backing paper off at one end, but instead of pulling it straight back in line with the edge, I pull it at an angle to one side, so I'm pulling it out from between the two sheets of cuben, which are already in contact. To get it started you need to move the weights and lift one corner of the top piece. Once a 3" end of the backing paper is free, you can roll the bond and put the weight back. Then roll the entire seam as you pull the backing out, with the roller following an inch behind the backing as it comes off. If I did have an assistant, I think I would still use this method, with the assistant pulling the backing paper, so I'd have two hands to hold the cuben down ahead of the bonding area and roll it tight immediately after. I use 1" wide tape. A single backing strip is easier to pull than two, but it can be done. :) It's possible to prepare the cuben by trimming the edge with a soldering iron along a metal straightedge just before applying the primer, but using a cutting mat and rolling cutter is just as easy. I have thought about a cutting mat that's 6" wide and 12' long, but I don't do enough of this stuff to justify the expense. (Besides, they don't exist.)
I do count myself lucky. I think if we did this a lot we would have a better system. As I was finishing up making the patches, I realized having a way to hold the cuben material down while I was working would have been a good thing. With the mat I was using, I was thinking I could have used some binder clips or something to fasten it to the mat. I did work out having the material turned over into place and then pulling the tape backing out when doing the hems - that worked great and it sounds like what you do as well. If I did a bunch of these I would definitely get some 1" wide tape for doing the patches and the ridge.
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 10:10
Thanks for doing this video, SGT Rock! I was wondering about this project and that tape, but hadn't seen anything about it yet. WOW! What a project!
I wouldn't have ever made a video because once I made mine and figured out how I was going to do it, well I had already done it and there was no record nor a reason to make a tarp just to make a record of the process. But since a friend wanted me to make him a BIG version of my SUL tarp, I decided it was the perfect time to document the process. Big thanks to my friend Rick to whom I delivered the tarp to this morning.
Thank you, Sgt. Rock. I've been on the fence about making my own cuben drybags, and this definitely helped clear things up for me in several areas.
A question, though: does the tape work with materials other than cuben (I know you taped the tie-outs with patches, but I'm unsure whether the tape was adhering to the 550 cord or to the cuben patches or both)? For example, Neoprene and nylon? Or do I need to find another type of adhesive and/or sew and then glue patches over the sewn parts?
Also, thank you for your website; it was what originally got me to try hammock camping!
3M makes many different adhesives for different materials and applications. Search for their technical manuals and spec sheets to see what works with what. They describe materials with varying degrees of "surface energy". Generally it's easier to bond to high surface energy materials (like aluminum). Polyester has moderately low surface energy, but bonding is improved by using their Primer 94. Good luck. There's a lot of material out there, but it's not easy to track down. Think of it as an exercise that will dramatically improve your search skills. Perseverance furthers. :)
What he said.
Something else I was thinking of when after I had already seam sealed the tie outs and then taped over them: What if I put enough seam seal on them to create a good surface for the cuben and 3M tape to bond too? I think that maybe if I were to do it again I would use 1/2" wide ribbon instead of para cord, and I would cover them with enough seam seal to help bond them to the patches.
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 10:22
This should be sticky'ed to this page...Great job with the instructions Sgt Rock!
Cuben is just amazing!
VInce
Not to blow my own horn, but I agree. When I was thinking about doing my first tarp I tried for weeks to find some good instructions on working with the stuff. I almost chickened out on trying because I couldn't find much solid on working with cuben fiber. WV's thread about cuben pull-outs was about the best piece of information I could find about working with it at the time.
GrizzlyAdams
08-03-2011, 11:45
I expect a sticky is coming, I will certainly suggest so to the mods.
Was happy to see this, I've been working with Cuben and Sgt Rock does a great job of pointing out the things to which you must be attentive.
great job Sgt
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 12:00
The thing almost didn't happen. The camera I used did something different this time and the files wouldn't edit. I had to play with about three different programs trying things like file conversions and such until I got them to where the editor would recognize them and use them. It was totally baffling since I didn't change anything I normally did, and the .avi files normally open just fine. If I hadn't figured out a solution yesterday afternoon I was about to scrap trying to make a youtube video altogether.
I vote for STICKY, STICKY, STICKY...
Oops, I voted 3 times :sneaky:
Something else I was thinking of when after I had already seam sealed the tie outs and then taped over them: What if I put enough seam seal on them to create a good surface for the cuben and 3M tape to bond too? I think that maybe if I were to do it again I would use 1/2" wide ribbon instead of para cord, and I would cover them with enough seam seal to help bond them to the patches.
My next round of tie-out testing will have 1/2" polypropylene straps sewn to DP's "Triastic" fabric, which is a polyester spinnaker cloth with a polyester coating. Then I'll bond the Triastic to cuben and see how much force it takes to cause failure and where it breaks.
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/1/1/8/0/cuben_-_fabric_tieout_test_-_1_thumb.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=14889&c=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=1180&cutoffdate=-1) Here's a picture of my test cuben, 15" x 15" bonded to a piece of aluminum on one edge so I can pull it evenly across the whole width. Below it is the 2" x 2" square of Triastic with the strap sewn to it.
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/1/1/8/0/cuben_-_fabric_tieout_test_-_2_thumb.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=14888&c=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=1180&cutoffdate=-1)Here is the Triastic patch bonded to the cuben with 3M 9460 adhesive transfer tape (plus Primer), ready for the pull test. I have already tested the Triastic-to-cuben connection, both sewn and with 9460 tape, and I know that both methods of connecting them are strong enough. What I expect to learn is where the cuben material will tear and how much force it takes to tear it. From Sgt. Rock's video, I see I could further strengthen the connection by adding a layer of cuben over the Triastic patch, and I may do that in the future because it would provide a way of tapering the reinforcing patch (if the cuben added was bigger than the Triastic). Earlier pull tests have shown that a strong reinforcing patch on cuben will fail right at the edge of the patch. Tapering may help spread the force over a larger area, resulting in a stronger connection.
I'll post test results in this thread, with a link to my earlier tests. As this one builds on what we learned earlier, it make sense to sticky this thread, adding new information as it appears.
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 13:25
WV,
It looks like a good solution. What I have come to believe is if you spread the ends out so they lay side by side instead of directly top and bottom from each other, that this would spread the force over a greater area. I need to make an example of what I am thinking of to illustrate this.
WV,
It looks like a good solution. What I have come to believe is if you spread the ends out so they lay side by side instead of directly top and bottom from each other, that this would spread the force over a greater area. I need to make an example of what I am thinking of to illustrate this.
Gotcha. I do that a lot when sewing grosgrain loops on nylon. The orange polypro straps are pretty thick (for polypro), and I didn't cut them very long, so it was a bit difficult to get the ends to lie side by side while sewing so I didn't bother. I also figured that the fabric reinforcing patch is supposed to be compensating for localized stresses, so I could use a less-than-perfect webbing attachment as part of the test. (That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! ;))
DiscoveryDiver
08-03-2011, 15:28
SR - This is great stuff. May I ask...for the tarp you made, what would the approximate cost of the Cuben have been...?
On tie outs...it would be great if a no-sew solution could be had here. What if someone used a braided dyneema cord, same approximate length as the paracord you used. And unravel this cord at the ends so it spreads out thin and wide for the last inch or so...I wonder if that could be successfully glued to the Cuben and then sandwiched as you did...strong enough to hold the forces involved with a tie out point...
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 15:41
SR - This is great stuff. May I ask...for the tarp you made, what would the approximate cost of the Cuben have been...?
$26 per linear yard, used 8 yards. So $208 for the cuben fiber. zpacks does you good on shipping, less than $4 if I recall.
The tape and primer with shipping and tax was another ~$66. They eat you up on shipping from that place. But as far as I know rshughes is the best source on that. I could very well be wrong.
On tie outs...it would be great if a no-sew solution could be had here. What if someone used a braided dyneema cord, same approximate length as the paracord you used. And unravel this cord at the ends so it spreads out thin and wide for the last inch or so...I wonder if that could be successfully glued to the Cuben and then sandwiched as you did...strong enough to hold the forces involved with a tie out point...
It could work. I'm not sure. Another idea I came up with is to run a LARGE loop of dynaglide around the entire perimeter within the hem, but have some come out in about 1/2" loops in all the places you want to have tie outs. That way the stress would be distributed all the way around the edge where it is double layered already. I don't know if it would work, but it would eliminate all sewing and probably be VERY strong.
great job S. my tarp about the same size. used for 3 yrs now, all glued, no sewing.
Tie outs 1.5 in gorilla tape, 6 in long, apply to top, use a 1.5 small carbon fiber tube,in the angle where the tape double back on itself. Double back, put on bottom.(opposite the top piece) put your tie outs in the center of the tube, (make a small hole.) the tube distributes the stress, and the tape holds well. no sewing at all.
you can also make a Cuben (tape) using the double sided tape and a piece of C instead of the gorilla. I never use the solvent, just the double sided tape, have not had any trouble yet.
I have used the M stuff and several other tapes,( a 1 in I believe, mylar tape , one sided is available which is pretty useful in C) some 1/2 in some other sizes.
As I am fundamental lazy, I do not make a hem on the sides of the tarp. The Cuben by definition, can not ravel.
wonderful to see so much work done with C.
Re stuff sacks, I just poke holes in the top of the all glued sacks and run the draw strings thru the holes. ( I told you I am lazy)
my stuff rarely is pretty but It usually works well enough!!! gnome
colonel r
08-03-2011, 17:13
The chickens remind me of mission trips to Nicaragua.
Was there a discussion about using cat cut on the ridge or the edges?
Could you show a pic of the setup tarp from the outside?
Rick
littlebigpole
08-03-2011, 17:42
So watching your video on putting the two pieces together and I get how that could be difficult. My question / possible solution to the problem is this.
Could you use a long, straight flat piece of wood, say like a yard stick but longer, and tape that along the top of the piece your working with so that you and your partner would flip the entire piece over at one time? Im thinking of taping the piece of wood / straight edge down then you would just need to keep the other piece under control. I hope that makes since. Double sided tape on the wood to fiber and then same on the fiber to the table. Would keep them both in place.
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 17:59
You lost me. But that happens all the time.
littlebigpole
08-03-2011, 18:42
Ok Ill try again. It seems the issue is getting the two fabrics stuck together without losing the straight edge or getting a wrinkle in the fabric while attaching them. My solution would be to have the two pieces stuck to two different surfaces that would allow the fabrics to be wrinkle free and to be able to stick the entire edge at one time.
On the long edge of the ridge line. You put say a double sided tape to hold the first side to the table. Then prime the edge. Then you would put the 3 M tape on that just like you show in the video. Then the other piece you would tape a long straight edge to that piece. This would keep the edge straight. Then apply the primer and stick the two pieces together. My thinking is that it would allow you to keep the entire length of the tarp going on that straight line. You could in theory then do the project without a helper.
If that dont do it I will have to start with a paint drawing.
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 18:58
I think it could work. I don't know if you could make them 11' long or not. It would seem like the issue would be to get them started on the end at the right alignment and then keeping that alignment the entire way down while monkeying with a 11' board in your hands.
littlebigpole
08-03-2011, 19:02
So yeah I would think the side edge would be the first trick. The long edge I would think might be the easy part. The long wood piece would be resting on the table or floor or whatever you were working on. It would be gravity working for the rest of it. Controlled gravity that is. My next question would be is how long can that primer sit before you actually have to stick it.
Just a thought. Thanks for your input. Your video was very informative.
SGT Rock
08-03-2011, 19:14
I don't know how long it can wait, I usually went within a few minutes of applying it since it dries fast.
So yeah I would think the side edge would be the first trick. The long edge I would think might be the easy part. The long wood piece would be resting on the table or floor or whatever you were working on. It would be gravity working for the rest of it. Controlled gravity that is. My next question would be is how long can that primer sit before you actually have to stick it.
Just a thought. Thanks for your input. Your video was very informative.
LBP, the primer needs to dry, which it does within 5 minutes under good conditions. After that it can wait quite a while, but the work should be kept clean - don't let dust settle on it, for instance. So, finishing the bond within an hour or so is fine, maybe a lot longer.
Take a look at my description of taping the cuben to a masonite work surface again. That works well, and it's easily done by someone working alone. Your idea of taping the cuben to a long stick would be much more difficult, IMO, because you need to get the whole length aligned accurately and placed all at once. An 11' piece of wood bends a lot under its own weight, unless it's a 4 x 4. It's better to have the cuben pieces already aligned and held in place, so they bond instantly as the backing paper is removed.
littlebigpole
08-04-2011, 07:22
Ok, so I see the point of the wood bending. Didnt think of that. That thought just came to me while looking at the video.
Thanks for the replies.
Violent Green
08-04-2011, 13:04
My next round of tie-out testing will have 1/2" polypropylene straps sewn to DP's "Triastic" fabric, which is a polyester spinnaker cloth with a polyester coating. Then I'll bond the Triastic to cuben and see how much force it takes to cause failure and where it breaks.
Here is the Triastic patch bonded to the cuben with 3M 9460 adhesive transfer tape (plus Primer), ready for the pull test. I have already tested the Triastic-to-cuben connection, both sewn and with 9460 tape, and I know that both methods of connecting them are strong enough. What I expect to learn is where the cuben material will tear and how much force it takes to tear it. From Sgt. Rock's video, I see I could further strengthen the connection by adding a layer of cuben over the Triastic patch, and I may do that in the future because it would provide a way of tapering the reinforcing patch (if the cuben added was bigger than the Triastic). Earlier pull tests have shown that a strong reinforcing patch on cuben will fail right at the edge of the patch. Tapering may help spread the force over a larger area, resulting in a stronger connection.
I'll post test results in this thread, with a link to my earlier tests. As this one builds on what we learned earlier, it make sense to sticky this thread, adding new information as it appears.
WV,
I've seen 3M 9460 used here and there, but haven't used it myself. Do you know how it compares to 9485pc? Suppose I could look at the data sheets, but real world experience is helpful too.
Ryan
WV,
I've seen 3M 9460 used here and there, but haven't used it myself. Do you know how it compares to 9485pc? Suppose I could look at the data sheets, but real world experience is helpful too.
Ryan
There are two differences between 9460 and 9485: type of adhesive and thickness. First, 3M uses two different adhesives for these tapes. Both work for polyester (which includes CTF3 or cuben fiber). The adhesive used for 9485 is called "350" and the adhesive used for 9460 is called "100MP". The difference between these two is that 100MP requires a primer ("Primer 94") to achieve the strongest possible bond, but with that primer, it is stronger than "350", especially in resisting peel forces. To some extent, that's academic because we should be designing to limit loading on our tarp seams to shear forces, not peel. It's also not terribly important because both types of adhesive are "strong enough" for our uses. FWIW, using Primer 94 with 9485 improves its bonding, too, but it's still second-best when it comes to bond strength. Using Primer 94 is very easy, so I chose 9460.
The second difference between the two tapes is the thickness of the adhesive layer. Both types of adhesive transfer tape are made in two thicknesses, 2 mil or 5 mil. 2 mil is good for very flat or very thin and flexible materials (like CTF3). 5 mil is good for bonding stiffer materials with rougher surfaces (like an aluminum sign to a brick wall). Tapes using 100MP adhesive are 9460 (2 mil) and 9469 (5 mil). Tapes using 350 adhesive are 9482 (2 mil) and 9485 (5 mil).
The information on the relative strengths of the bonds is from the 3M data sheets, and it was confirmed in my testing. I use 2 mil tape (9460) with primer for construction and 2 mil tape (9482) for on-trail repairs (which I haven't needed so far, but I have pieces of CTF3 with tape applied ready to use).
Hope this helps. Everything works, for the most part, but it's nice to feel that you're using the best possible combination of materials and bonding agents.
SGT Rock
08-04-2011, 17:10
Reading that, I wonder if one could bond nylon pull-outs to cuben using 9485? And if you could, how strong would it be?
Violent Green
08-04-2011, 17:37
There are two differences between 9460 and 9485: type of adhesive and thickness. First, 3M uses two different adhesives for these tapes. Both work for polyester (which includes CTF3 or cuben fiber). The adhesive used for 9485 is called "350" and the adhesive used for 9460 is called "100MP". The difference between these two is that 100MP requires a primer ("Primer 94") to achieve the strongest possible bond, but with that primer, it is stronger than "350", especially in resisting peel forces. To some extent, that's academic because we should be designing to limit loading on our tarp seams to shear forces, not peel. It's also not terribly important because both types of adhesive are "strong enough" for our uses. FWIW, using Primer 94 with 9485 improves its bonding, too, but it's still second-best when it comes to bond strength. Using Primer 94 is very easy, so I chose 9460.
The second difference between the two tapes is the thickness of the adhesive layer. Both types of adhesive transfer tape are made in two thicknesses, 2 mil or 5 mil. 2 mil is good for very flat or very thin and flexible materials (like CTF3). 5 mil is good for bonding stiffer materials with rougher surfaces (like an aluminum sign to a brick wall). Tapes using 100MP adhesive are 9460 (2 mil) and 9469 (5 mil). Tapes using 350 adhesive are 9482 (2 mil) and 9485 (5 mil).
The information on the relative strengths of the bonds is from the 3M data sheets, and it was confirmed in my testing. I use 2 mil tape (9460) with primer for construction and 2 mil tape (9482) for on-trail repairs (which I haven't needed so far, but I have pieces of CTF3 with tape applied ready to use).
Hope this helps. Everything works, for the most part, but it's nice to feel that you're using the best possible combination of materials and bonding agents.
Good info. So you really need to use primer 94 for best results. Think I will stick with 9485pc then since both are more than strong enough in shear, and I'm a little burned out on multi-step adhesives right now(thank you Hysol). Thanks WV
Ryan
Reading that, I wonder if one could bond nylon pull-outs to cuben using 9485? And if you could, how strong would it be?
Here's (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-Industrial/Adhesives/Resources/Know-Your-Surface/) what 3M says about nylon and other materials. Nylon is very close to polyester in surface energy, so both types of adhesive transfer tapes should stick to it. The surface of a woven strap is rough, so a thicker tape (9469 or 9485) would be better.
That's the theory, anyway. When I'm doing my tie-out tests I'll try it. I wonder if one of the urethane glues like Hysol or Aquaseal wouldn't work just as well. It's hard to get them thin enough for bonding sheets, but they might penetrate a woven strap and work the better for it. I think I'll try 1/2" grosgrain to CTF3.
Violent Green
08-04-2011, 17:41
Reading that, I wonder if one could bond nylon pull-outs to cuben using 9485? And if you could, how strong would it be?
I've bonded grosgrain to cuben quite a bit w/ 9485pc, but never tested for the strength a tie out would need(I use it on cuben dry bags). I can run some tests if you like.
Ryan
*edit* - WV beat me to it.
man i need to get some cuben now..... :rolleyes:
SGT Rock
08-04-2011, 18:11
I think if the 9485 works well, it would eliminate my need to sew anything. Just get some grosgrain webbing and tape it into place.
I've bonded grosgrain to cuben quite a bit w/ 9485pc, but never tested for the strength a tie out would need(I use it on cuben dry bags). I can run some tests if you like.
Ryan
*edit* - WV beat me to it.
But I'll let you do the tests ... :lol: Besides, you have actual experience with the bond on your dry bags. That's valuable.
Violent Green
08-04-2011, 20:56
But I'll let you do the tests ... :lol: Besides, you have actual experience with the bond on your dry bags. That's valuable.
Haha...You're too kind! I will be in the Smokies from tomorrow through early Sunday, so will put something together Sunday evening or Monday. I've still got some Hysol left as well as some Aquaseal and epoxies so I can throw those in there too.
Ryan
Sgt Rock,
I've searched this thread and it's probably here somewhere, but as my wife says, I'm a blind mouse.
What thickness of cuben did you use for that wonderful tarp?
SmokeHouse
08-08-2011, 21:41
Great job Rock,,, thanks
SGT Rock
08-09-2011, 06:02
Sgt Rock,
I've searched this thread and it's probably here somewhere, but as my wife says, I'm a blind mouse.
What thickness of cuben did you use for that wonderful tarp?
www.zpacks.com their 0.51oz per square yard stuff.
www.zpacks.com (http://www.zpacks.com) their 0.51oz per square yard stuff.
AKA "CT1K.08" at Cubic Tech. :)
Thanks. I was hoping it was the 0.51 stuff. That makes for an unbelievably whispy tarp :D
SGT Rock
08-09-2011, 13:24
FWIW, I did try to estimate the weight of the tape after it is set, it came out to 0.001159 ounces per square inch. It may not be a perfectly determined weight, but it can get you into the ballpark.
Great video SGT Rock
I used a CF tarp for about 50 days on the AT this summer and will probably never go back for summer use.
Now I may try to make one myself in a smaller size
joehasbeard
08-14-2011, 13:26
Some of the specs that I'm reading online say that VHB's operating temp is between 50 and 300 deg. Is this true or am I reading the specs of a different product than the one you're using?
SGT Rock
08-14-2011, 14:32
There are different VHBs. WV probably knows them all better than I do. What I think you may be looking at for the low is the application temp:
Ideal tape application temperature range is 70°F to 100°F (21°C to 38°C). Initial tape application to surfaces at temperatures below 50°F (10°C) is not recommended because the adhesive becomes too firm to adhere readily. However, once properly applied, low
temperature holding is generally satisfactory.
From the spec sheet from this site: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTt58T2o8z6EVuQE cuZgVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=70-0709-3862-9.PDF
The VHB™ Tapes have also performed well in tests, similar to MILSTD 883, which
are commonly used to qualify durable products for the electronics industry. Under
this testing, protocol bonds are subjected to 1000 hours at 150°C, 1000 hours at 85°C
and 85% relative humidity, and 1000 hours of thermal shock which cycles hourly
from -50°C to 150°C. Figure 3 shows the excellent performance of the VHB™
Adhesive Transfer Tape F-9460PC in similar testing which involved bonding
polyimide to aluminum. Typically the bond strength increases with time due to the
high performance PSA’s more complete wet out of the surfaces.
You will have to look through the document to see the graph. But simply stated the tape is tested to -50C which is -58F.
50 degrees is the lower limit for applying the adhesive in F9460PC. Once the bond is established, it's very strong. These are quotes from 3M technical bulletins.
These VHB adhesive transfer tapes are made from the same adhesive system and are
thermoplastic in nature, becoming softer as temperature increases and firmer as
temperature decreases. As the adhesive becomes firmer, the adhesion performance
generally increases. At low temperatures (lower than -40°F, the VHB adhesive
transfer tapes become very firm and glassy; the ability to absorb impact energy is
reduced.Also
The VHB™ Tapes have also performed well in tests, similar to MILSTD 883, which
are commonly used to qualify durable products for the electronics industry. Under
this testing, protocol bonds are subjected to 1000 hours at 150°C, 1000 hours at 85°C
and 85% relative humidity, and 1000 hours of thermal shock which cycles hourly
from -50°C to 150°C. Figure 3 shows the excellent performance of the VHB™
Adhesive Transfer Tape F-9460PC in similar testing which involved bonding
polyimide to aluminum. Typically the bond strength increases with time due to the
high performance PSA’s more complete wet out of the surfaces.Sarge, you're too fast for me!
hangin around
09-05-2011, 14:03
Sergent Rock
As I was reading this thread, I was wondering if the tie outs could be made of doubled over Cuben strips that then get taped on to the edges. Since they would be made at home, they could even have larger ends than the strip part. This would add strength to the adhered part and minimize the number of pieces.
I have not ever used CF but have been doing research recently.
Thanks for the great video.
SGT Rock
09-07-2011, 13:28
I thought of that. One thing cuben does not stand up to well is abrasion and I assume where ever the pull out meets the cord there will be a lot of abrasion. That is why I didn't try it.
I thought of that. One thing cuben does not stand up to well is abrasion and I assume where ever the pull out meets the cord there will be a lot of abrasion. That is why I didn't try it.
Something that might be worth doing is taking a piece of cuben and encasing it in something resistant to abrasion (ripstop or cordura, maybe?) over the majority of its length, and then taping the end pieces to the tarp as the tie-outs.
See stupid little ascii graphic below for what I mean:
----------
====================
----------
-: Ripstop (sewn to itself to make a sleeve for the cuben).
=: Cuben (taped to tarp at ends to make tie-out "skeleton").
The cuben provides the immense tear strength that cuben is noted for, along with an easy attachment method that doesn't perforate the tarp itself. The ripstop (or cordura, or...you get the idea) provides the abrasion resistance versus the guyline that the cuben can't.
Just a thought.
DiscoveryDiver
09-07-2011, 15:46
Or perhaps pulling some cuben through a tube of some sort and then gluing the two ends of the cuben to the tarp...
SGT Rock
09-08-2011, 05:57
It could work. I would suggest 5" x 1/2" wide cuben run through the shell of paracord. I would tape 2" at each end to give a good weld to the tarp and use the paracord to protect the 1" of cuben where the tie out meets it.
When "3M 9460" was searched, a PDF file of 3M Technical Data showed some application tips on page 4 of 4. A clean surface was recommended with the cleaner being isopropyl alcohol/water or heptane. Let's talk about those two cleaners.
Isopropyl alcohol is the chemical name for rubbing alcohol. The drugstore has it in 91% and 70% alky/water ratio for about a dollar a pint. IIRC, isopropyl absorbs water vapor from the air so it is never 100% alcohol. No, you do not need to thin it with water, the water mentioned is just already in there as it comes out of the bottle. My opinion is that is an inexpensive cleaner if it is suitable for the cuben.
Heptane is a refined petroleum product like a super clean gasoline and likely smells that way. Not a pleasant solvent to work with. I'm guessing that is what the stinky "94" 3M solvent is. My question is, is 94 necessary for cuben, or is that just 3M upselling their product when cheap iso alcohol is adequate and smells slightly better?
The application tips also mentioned pressure would improve bonding so Sgt. Rock's use the roller not only pushes out bubbles but matches 3M's bonding advice. At BPL forums, Steve Evans weights/squeezes his bonded seams while they cure for a period of time. As an engineer, he may even understand some of that lingo on the tech data page.
As part of the same Google search, Amazon.com has 36-yard single rolls of half inch, 3/4 inch, and one inch wide 9460 tape for $25/$36/$49 from CS Hyde with free shipping. RS Hughes is not the only retail source. A case of each type of tape is over a thousand dollars direct from 3M.
Just telling you what I saw on the internet.
Heyyou, thanks for adding to the knowledge base. I believe Primer 94 is more than just a solvent, though you may be right about the solvent that is in it. The instructions advise to shake it well before using it. Also, when I was doing pull tests with 2" x 5" strips of CT3 I laid them out on a scrap of formica and used a paint brush to apply the primer. Some primer got on the formica around the edges, but it dried clear and wasn't sticky, so I left it. Now I can see clearly where the strips were because the primed formica collects dirt.
When I bond a seam with 9460 and primer I use blue painters' tape to mask the area of the bond while applying the primer.
Your question about the necessity for primer is a good one. My tests showed that the bond with 9460 and 9469 is significantly stronger with Primer 94. Primer also improved 9482 and 9485, but only a bit. If you don't use primer, 9482 and 9485 are a bit stronger than 9460 and 9469. For many uses 9482/9485 would be fine. 3M says that Primer 94 also increases peel strength. All my tests were for shear stresses, such as a tarp seam would be subject to.
Nice to hear that Amazon has these tapes. Compare prices to Uline.com.
the_gr8t_waldo
09-10-2011, 15:10
thank you S.R. this vid was all i needed to launch head long into a new tarp. the lay out pic at the end was too small for me to read....could you post it to tha pic section, when you get a chance?
SGT Rock
09-10-2011, 20:03
thank you S.R. this vid was all i needed to launch head long into a new tarp. the lay out pic at the end was too small for me to read....could you post it to tha pic section, when you get a chance?
Here you go:
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=15404&c=15
patentdoc
09-20-2011, 06:34
Looks like another project to add to the list!
For the content of 3m Primer 94 see their MSDS sheet
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00xl82eM8txnv70k 17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS--
It has a number of substances as well as carriers.
the_gr8t_waldo
09-26-2011, 18:11
could the "surface energy" of, lets say poylprope or even nylon be increased by wetting out the contact portion of the loop with something like pvc glue ( maybe thined out with acetone) then allowed to dry before introducing the 3m adheasive?
4 dog knight
09-26-2011, 23:01
Sgt.,
Got the O.A. weight...what wgt. material did you use...PLEASE
SGT Rock
09-27-2011, 07:45
My stuff was the Zpack 0.51 oz per square yard stuff.
http://www.zpacks.com/materials.shtml
Strung out
09-27-2011, 07:57
Great write up SGT.
Thanks a lot for inspiring others to work with this stuff.
Now I have cuben, VHB backer, and down :eek: all over the workroom!
This is easier than sewing if you ask me.
Note on the Primer: It is not just a cleaner. It adds some type of tacky substance to your seam. The 9460 sticks far better with primer.
USE THE PRIMER WITH CUBEN AND 9460 ADHESIVE. IT IS NOT OPTIONAL IMO.
Have fun everyone :D
Great write up SGT.
Thanks a lot for inspiring others to work with this stuff.
Now I have cuben, VHB backer, and down :eek: all over the workroom!
This is easier than sewing if you ask me.
Note on the Primer: It is not just a cleaner. It adds some type of tacky substance to your seam. The 9460 sticks far better with primer.
USE THE PRIMER WITH CUBEN AND 9460 ADHESIVE. IT IS NOT OPTIONAL IMO.
Have fun everyone :D
Agreed on all points.
Surface energy of a material is related to its molecular structure.
Just adding something, unless it reacts with the material, substrate won't change its surface energy. Polyester (Mylar is a polyester trade name) is not a particularly low surface energy material I think it get identified typically as being "medium". Polyethylene (spectra/dyneema) is definitely low surface energy.
Great video!
I love VHB tape. I recently started using it in some designs. It is marvelous. I am using the 15 mil VHB to bond polycarbonate sheet to aluminum. The 3M FAE (tech rep) says that this stuff starts to bond correctly after 15psi is applied for one second. Full strength develops in 72 hours.
I wonder if you could use 1/2" tape for the ridge line, and 1/4" wide tape for the hem? This stuff is amazingly strong. I have only experimented with small amounts so far. A long seam does look like a challenge.
Thanks again.
When I added cat cuts to my tarp I used 1/4" tape for the folded hem. It's doing fine. I've wondered about using 1/2" for seams, but I still use 1" out of caution. Slitting wider widths to make smaller ones is a sticky business. It's better to buy two different width rolls if you need them.
Thanks Sgt. Rock for the great video and valuable link to Zpacks.com. I also wanted to thank the others who contributed additional information to the thread. This is my first post here and although this thread is a bit old now I appreciate the info. Your video also made me smile. Highlights: Cursing when the rollover hem didn't go so well to begin with. You holding the roll of VHB tape in your mouth while pressing down the tape. Dog barking in background, wind blowing your tarp and making you temporarily disappear and finally the rooster. Your low tech/high tech video is what forums are all about and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Looking forward to building my own tarp very soon.
SGT Rock
10-09-2011, 10:16
I'm pretty low tech.
I'm pretty low tech.
I hope my comment did not come off as insulting? I meant quite the opposite. I'm copying your lemonade cozy idea as well. Very nice, thanks.
SGT Rock
10-09-2011, 20:12
No, on the contrary it is what I strive to achieve. Reality.
No, on the contrary it is what I strive to achieve. Reality.
Awesome, keep it up. :cool:
JohnSawyer
10-17-2011, 23:33
Love the tape together tarp. That's a little more logistically challenging, but a lot less work than sewing! I wonder if I could VHB together a Sil tarp... hmmmm...
Love the tape together tarp. That's a little more logistically challenging, but a lot less work than sewing! I wonder if I could VHB together a Sil tarp... hmmmm... Probably not. :(
Alligator
10-31-2011, 22:00
I recently constructed a cuben tarp following the instructions in the video. I opted for a square tarp 10.5'X10.5'. The video and instructions were top notch help in fabrication. I made three minor modifications in the pullouts.
1. I used triangular pullouts 6 inches on the hypotenuse. Four patches can be made from a 6 inch square. Two patches make a pullout. These are effectively the same area as two 3 inch square patches, as the same layering was done on the pullouts as in the video. I do not think there is much difference in effectiveness of a triangle vs. a square.
2. I used the two layer pullouts which creates a pullout with three layers, the two patches and the tarp. I sewed the pullout loops though to one pullout patch, not the tarp. The pullout with the sewn loop was than sandwiched between the tarp and another patch. I put both patches under the tarp. This worked out good because on my first patch the sewing machine feed dogs chewed up the patch and I had to work out a good feed dog height and cut a new patch.
3. Somewhere a poster noted that changing the direction of the bias on the cuben fiber might create a stronger fabric. So I changed the direction of the triangular patches so that one patch was at 0/90 and the other at 45/135 degrees. This could be done with the square patches. However care needs to be taken when assembling as I mixed them up at 2:30 a.m.
I used a 1" foam brush for the primer. This works good for sizing the primer as one inch of primer is needed for all areas. Ridgeline is two pieces of 1/2' tape, the hems are one piece of 1/2' tape and the material is folded over. The foam lays down a good bit of primer though so perhaps a 1" brush would be better.
The tarp was square. This required a second ridgeline. This does not optimally reduce weight. The additional fabric to reach 10.5' is about 22.5" in width. So that additional weight in the ridgeline is being distributed onto a smaller width than a nearly full width piece of fabric.
I used a little silnet that I had to seal the paracord loops. The VHB tape does not appear to bond well with the silnet. I was sloppy in putting it on, so use a brush not a paper towel.
My tarp came out slightly heavier than a SUL tarp might. I know I used a lot of primer with the foam brush plus the extra ridgeline puts the tarp at 8.6 ounces (no stuff sack yet). That's 25% larger area and 33% less weight than may 8x10 silnylon tarp so it works for me.
The 16 pullout patches (which are subsequently doubled up to make 8 pullouts), with paracord loops, I think weighed 0.72 oz total. That includes the tape with the pullouts ready to go on the tarp.
Last tip remember that when joining the ridgeline, for one half, primer for the ridgeline has to go on the opposite side of the fabric as primer for the hems. Rubbing alcohol will take this off if you hastily primer all the way around the second panel. If you have two ridgelines, and don't primer two of the three panels properly, I will repeat that rubbing alcohol will again take the primer off.
SGT Rock
11-01-2011, 06:53
That sounds similar to my first efforts at the pull outs. I had a hard time getting the sewing machine to sew the patches without bunching the material up and making a mess on that version. Glad it worked for you, probably what made it work was your larger patches than I used.
Alligator
11-01-2011, 20:54
I did ruin two triangles right away. The bar tacks I made weren't particularly even either. What I figured out for sewing this was to mark off 6 inch squares and mark the diagonals but not cut them. I sewed the loops onto the triangles, prepped them with primer and tape then I cut them, 4 triangles to a square. I got the idea from the way you had laid out all of your pullouts together to get the tape on them easier.
SGT Rock
11-02-2011, 06:43
I did something like the first time I tried making my pull outs - they were smaller than yours though, and even leaving them all together on the sheet for sewing it didn't work so well, but it did work.
A friend of mine asked me to make him a Cuben Tarp. As some may know, I did mine using VHB tape for most of the work, keeping sewing to a minimum. I think it makes for a stronger tarp overall.
So this time I made a video about it so you DIY guys can see how it is done. Maybe it will help some of you to think through a Cuben Tarp DIY project, maybe it will scare some of you off.
Great video! After watching how much is involved in this, I think this might be one of those pieces of gear I just have to break down and buy. At least now everyone understands why these cost so much...with the cost of the cuben fiber and all the hard work, $300 almost sounds too cheap!
How long did it take you to make it? Maybe, just maybe, I can find some time when the kids are out of the house (or asleep) long enough to make one.
SGT Rock
11-07-2011, 18:59
I didn't track time, but I would guess about 6 hours.
well thought out and executed video Thank you so much for the effort of making this. Makes me a feel alotmore comfortable spending the money on cuben and not having to experiment with it.
You guys think the 3M Adhesive Transfer Tape 9485PC would work on polyester for adding pull-outs?
BushcraftNsite
01-05-2012, 17:07
awesome vid, yeah once ya go cuben you dont go back. living in the future is rad haha
SGT Rock
01-05-2012, 19:10
You guys think the 3M Adhesive Transfer Tape 9485PC would work on polyester for adding pull-outs?
I don't know. I'm waiting to hear from someone that tries it.
Violent Green
01-05-2012, 22:33
You guys think the 3M Adhesive Transfer Tape 9485PC would work on polyester for adding pull-outs?
Polyester webbing? I know 9485pc sticks very well to nylon grosgrain for tie outs if you wanted to try that. Either way, I can mail you a little 9485pc if you want to test it out.
Ryan
adventurer
01-05-2012, 22:42
where did you get the VHB and will it work with nylon
Polyester webbing? I know 9485pc sticks very well to nylon grosgrain for tie outs if you wanted to try that. Either way, I can mail you a little 9485pc if you want to test it out.
Ryan
Sure neighbor I'll try it as soon as my tarp gets here. You are nice and close, only an hour away.
I tried it on nylon tonight.
w o w! works amazingly well, even with out trying it with the primer.
I think it would be wise to use WV's suggestion of looking at the 3 M site as to what is 'more appropriate' for nylon, but my little test piece of material
for a sock looks amazing.
Violent Green
01-05-2012, 23:00
Sure neighbor I'll try it as soon as my tarp gets here. You are nice and close, only an hour away.
Yep, not far. I've been to Morristown up that way a couple times, but never Russellville. Just remind me when your tarp gets here and I will send you some to try. It sticks very well to polypro so I'm thinking polyester would also work.
Ryan
Strung out
01-05-2012, 23:05
It does stick well to polyester webbing.
I used double thickness "tape" and also used primer.
Although, the adhesive has a tendency to creep, so I also added a couple rows of stitching to help that.
DemostiX
01-06-2012, 00:20
So this NOT to be confused with a tape which sometime in the last several years was reported at Backpacking Light to perform very well until adhesion was lost as very low (-20F?), and then restored when temps rose. (I can't find the link. The report "sticks" in mind because the lint and dirt was reported to adhere very well during the time the tape unstuck.)
SGT Rock
01-06-2012, 11:24
I'd be interested in hearing how the VHB 9485 works in the field long term. That sounds like an excellent solution to applying tie outs without sewing.
Ya because from what some people have said it's hard as heck to sew them on.
Bannerstone
01-06-2012, 15:00
A question for Sgt Rock, do you think there would be any strength advantage if the tie outs are sewn after they are laminated between the reinforcements?
David
SGT Rock
01-06-2012, 15:59
I think the best way to do it is with as little sewing as possible. If there is a good way to attach the tie outs without sewing at all, then I would be all for that. If 9485 can do that, it would be worth it.
Violent Green
01-08-2012, 10:42
The below is probably the best designed cuben tie out I ever saw. Lawson used it some on his tarps at one time I believe. Not the lightest tie out, but probably the strongest. Here is his description of it:
"It's two layers of CT5K.18 1.5oz Black Cuben fiber laminated together with a piece of 5/8" grosgrain laminated in between.. The grosgrain webbing is then box stitched to help with lap sheer and peel strength.. It is then laminated to the CT2K.08 .75oz Green Cuben tarp and the tarp edges lap over the laminated section by 1/2" to further help with strength. No holes in the tarp body."
Ryan
Cedar Tree
01-17-2012, 19:28
I finally found time to try cuben tarp making. Mine is CT2K.08, the .7 or so oz/yd2. I used the tie out method shown above by Violent Green. It is pentagon shaped with a 10'8 ridge, 8'6 along the bottom sides and 8'6 wide.
It is almost new sew. I did sew the tie outs like above but I glued them on. The middle seam and perimeter hem are glue taped. I didn't do cat cut sides or ridge but it seems to set up pretty tight. Weighs more than I hoped at 9.2 oz.
An absolutely wonderful thread and video! Thanks Sgt. Rock.
Here are two questions I had that I haven't found.
Q1. Couldn't you just sandwich two or three layers of the Cuben (one turned at a 45 degree angle and the other at a 90 degree angle for strength), then cut them into strips and primer and clue them to the sandwiched reinforced corners? This way you'd have a strong tie out, but also have the tie out material be no sew and UL? This would replace the grosgain or paracord.
Q2. I don't seem to see the Cuben being used in a diamond/asym shape at least often. Is this because of a lack of strength on the diagnal?
SGT Rock
01-18-2012, 07:40
An absolutely wonderful thread and video! Thanks Sgt. Rock.
Here are two questions I had that I haven't found.
Q1. Couldn't you just sandwich two or three layers of the Cuben (one turned at a 45 degree angle and the other at a 90 degree angle for strength), then cut them into strips and primer and clue them to the sandwiched reinforced corners? This way you'd have a strong tie out, but also have the tie out material be no sew and UL? This would replace the grosgain or paracord.
It could work
Q2. I don't seem to see the Cuben being used in a diamond/asym shape at least often. Is this because of a lack of strength on the diagnal?
Probably because it isn't very cost effective to make a diamond. If you went one piece at 54" x 108" it would make a very small tarp, smaller than the smallest Hennessy. To get it big enough you would probably want to make one with a ridge line down it. That would mean cutting two separate diamond halves and combining them in the center. That means you would probably start with about 5 yard in length of material and end up with a tarp that would be about ~70"x106" and have a ridge length ~134" (~5.73 Sq yards coverage), but have ends you have to cut off that equal about 1.8 square yards that are not used in the tarp. True some of that will be used to re-enforce corners and maybe make a stuff sack, but that is still a good bit of material left over at $26 a linear yard. In this build it would cost about $22.68 per square yard of tarp.
To get the most square yards for your money, most people will cut the tarp at right angles so they get the most square yards of tarp for their money. If you go 7 yards to make a tarp that is ~120" long and ~105" wide after you leave enough remainder for a stuff sack and reinforcements. This would give you ~9.72 square yards of coverage, and would equal ~$18.72 per square yard of tarp.
Thanks for the response Sgt. Rock.
So, the Asym/diamond isn't done due to cost. With all the UL backpackers, I'm amazed we haven't heard of anyone trying the cuben tie out.
SGT Rock
01-18-2012, 08:19
Thanks for the response Sgt. Rock.
So, the Asym/diamond isn't done due to cost. With all the UL backpackers, I'm amazed we haven't heard of anyone trying the cuben tie out.
It would probably work best with some heavier CF as a base for the pull outs.
Violent Green
01-18-2012, 22:49
I finally found time to try cuben tarp making. Mine is CT2K.08, the .7 or so oz/yd2. I used the tie out method shown above by Violent Green. It is pentagon shaped with a 10'8 ridge, 8'6 along the bottom sides and 8'6 wide.
It is almost new sew. I did sew the tie outs like above but I glued them on. The middle seam and perimeter hem are glue taped. I didn't do cat cut sides or ridge but it seems to set up pretty tight. Weighs more than I hoped at 9.2 oz.
That's a nice tarp Cedar Tree. Bonding is heavy compared to sewing, but also stronger so don't be too disappointed over the weight. With the .74 oz cuben and those tie outs you have a very strong tarp there. Not to mention still much lighter than if it was silnylon.
Ryan
SGT Rock
01-19-2012, 21:12
9.2 ounces is still good in my book.
where do i get some VHB tape?
SGT Rock
01-30-2012, 16:32
http://www.rshughes.com/
or
http://www.zpacks.com/materials.shtml
YeahIdIDThat
02-06-2012, 00:35
An absolutely wonderful thread and video! Thanks Sgt. Rock!:boggle:
Hi there ... I have just stitched up a tarp for my hammock with re enforced corners the lot! I need some kind of seam sealant, is VHB the way to go regarding sealing over my stitched seams, or is there another alternative to plug the perforations created using this method?
I probably would have tried seamless only I have just spotted this link .... Gaaah !
I Live in Belfast and we get a lot of heavy rain, so I need it to be a bulletproof sealant otherwise I'm stuffed!
Any ideas I would be grateful!
I may be repeating someone else's concerns ... Apologies in advance!
Shiver
Hi there ... I have just stitched up a tarp for my hammock with re enforced corners the lot! I need some kind of seam sealant, is VHB the way to go regarding sealing over my stitched seams, or is there another alternative to plug the perforations created using this method?
I probably would have tried seamless only I have just spotted this link .... Gaaah !
I Live in Belfast and we get a lot of heavy rain, so I need it to be a bulletproof sealant otherwise I'm stuffed!
Any ideas I would be grateful!
I may be repeating someone else's concerns ... Apologies in advance!
Shiver
Shiver, this is a good question. The answer depends in large measure on what your tarp is made of. If you used CTF3 ("cuben"), then taping over the stitching with a DIY tape made with VHB adhesive transfer tape and a strip of cuben would be great. It would reinforce both the stitching and the tarp material at the join, and it would make it totally waterproof. There may be single-sided tapes available that are made for bonding cuben, too. Check with one of the oft-cited cottage industries that sell cuben products.
If, however, your tarp is made of some other material, such as silnylon or urethane coated nylon, you may need a different type of adhesive to seal it. I like the idea of a taped seam - in fact, I have a silnylon tarp with some less than wonderful seam work :blush:, so I'll do a test with VHB cuben tape. I'll use 3M 9460 adhesive and Primer 94 on a strip of CT.6K.08, but I expect to find that it doesn't adhere as well as silicone seam sealant.
Has anyone else made their own seam sealing tape with either silicone or urethane adhesives?
Shiver, I just looked at the Z-packs site that SGT Rock included. Joe says that the cuben tape he sells will not stick to silnylon, however he does suggest that silicone seam sealer can be used with cuben sewn seams, so I may try a DIY tape with cuben strips and silicone seam sealer as adhesive.
Brilliant! .... Thanks for the help .... It's great to have so many peeps who help out on here, I mean those who experiment and try different methods ... It's definitely getting my brain working .....
I'll check it out with the sealant ..... And the tape and run a few tests also ...
Happy trails
Shiver
sawgrassbrothers
05-23-2012, 14:31
Sweet tart sarge.
sawgrassbrothers
06-17-2012, 19:15
Sweet tart sarge.
Oops meant to say tarp :blush:
SGT Rock
06-18-2012, 18:37
WV did you ever find a good solution that had high peel strength? I've been thinking that only gorilla tape had this for pull outs.
WV did you ever find a good solution that had high peel strength? I've been thinking that only gorilla tape had this for pull outs.
I've always designed around it - none of my tarps have mid-panel pull-outs, so all the stresses are in shear. I didn't test for peel strength at all. 3M's technical info suggests that 9460 with primer has high peel strength compared to other adhesive choices, but I'd guess it's still pretty low compared to its shear strength. If I needed strong mid-panel tie outs I might borrow something I used on edge tie-outs and also on the attachment for shroud lines on my adjustable hammocks (where the forces are much bigger than they are for tarps) - namely using carbon fiber tubes for short toggles to spread the forces out. If you put a toggle on the inside of a tarp and run the line though a hole to attach to it, then bond the toggle to the inside of the tarp, it would be pretty strong. You'd need to experiment to see how much reinforcement material you'd need to use to keep the end of the toggle from poking a hole in the tarp. It should be possible to make something that's very strong and light.
Alternatively, Grip Clips work well on cuben. When you take them off, you can see where they were - it's not flat any more - so they may cause some wear on the material. I haven't seen any problems with the one I leave in place to close the upwind end of my rectangular CT.6K.08 tarp, though. You could reinforce the tie-out location with a cuben patch and then install a Mini Grip Clip. Pretty simple solution. Just a Grip Clip, with no reinforcement at all would still be a lot stronger resisting peel forces than any tape connection. Simpler still.
SGT Rock
06-19-2012, 02:47
Thanks. On my cuben hammock I have the "footbox" system similar to what UKHammocks does with string instead of material. It worked OK for about a week, but then the primed 9460 failed under repeated stress on the system by peeling off the hem. So now I am trying to figure out a better way to keep it in place, and I was hoping maybe gorilla tape would do it. But I re-read some of your stuff on tie outs and it looks like most of your peel experiments were not very demanding and most stuff peeled off at about 3.5 pounds stress. I'm trying to avoid sewing anything to the hammock body at all, but it looks like I may have to sew a tie out for that, and then possibly laminate a layer over where I sew to put strength back into the spot and counter act the damage sewing into the body produces.
MOWOGO '72
07-03-2012, 15:12
Hey Sarge,
I am getting ready to attempt a 2QZQ type Pole Mod on my HG4S Cuben Tarp and will make the triangular pockets from the same Cuben as the tarp. Planning to sew and use VHB for the pockets. Figure I should use the 3M 94 Primer.
Obviously I will not need a whole 8 oz can and the small tubes would be better to use in an emergency repair kit on the trail.
Question is, on your video you say that the primer tubes did not work well. Was that simply because of the scale of the project or was there another reason? Just wondering if they would be more suitable for this small scale job and to keep for trail repairs.
SGT Rock
07-03-2012, 15:15
Hey Sarge,
I am getting ready to attempt a 2QZQ type Pole Mod on my HG4S Cuben Tarp and will make the triangular pockets from the same Cuben as the tarp. Planning to sew and use VHB for the pockets. Figure I should use the 3M 94 Primer.
Obviously I will not need a whole 8 oz can and the small tubes would be better to use in an emergency repair kit on the trail.
Question is, on your video you say that the primer tubes did not work well. Was that simply because of the scale of the project or was there another reason? Just wondering if they would be more suitable for this small scale job and to keep for trail repairs.
Tubes would do OK for that and on the trail. If you plan for this to work I would recommend sewing the pockets to the tarp then laminating some cuben with VHB over the stitching. I think the peel strength on VHB will probably not live up to what you need for a pole pocket. I do have another thing you might want to look into - I did a pole mod without pockets using Dutch Hooks. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLU6tSG1clQ&list=PL173705773C81C126&index=2&feature=plpp_video
You could use a normal pole and attach the hooks to it instead of using trekking poles.
MOWOGO '72
07-03-2012, 16:42
Tubes would do OK for that and on the trail. If you plan for this to work I would recommend sewing the pockets to the tarp then laminating some cuben with VHB over the stitching. I think the peel strength on VHB will probably not live up to what you need for a pole pocket. I do have another thing you might want to look into - I did a pole mod without pockets using Dutch Hooks. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLU6tSG1clQ&list=PL173705773C81C126&index=2&feature=plpp_video
You could use a normal pole and attach the hooks to it instead of using trekking poles.
Sarge,
Attached is a .pdf of my plan for the pockets. What do you think?
SGT Rock
07-03-2012, 19:37
I think it should work, however, Cuben does not stand up well to abrasion. I would be worried that over time the cup of the pocket would wear through from abrasion caused by the pole.
MOWOGO '72
07-03-2012, 19:59
I think it should work, however, Cuben does not stand up well to abrasion. I would be worried that over time the cup of the pocket would wear through from abrasion caused by the pole.
No worries, tarp only gets used 3-4 times a year.
I can't imagine that abrasion would have an affect that fast.
SGT Rock
07-05-2012, 17:03
You'll probably love it then. Good luck.
thanks for putting the video up. Have been wanting to make some dry bags out of cuben and this really helped.
No worries, tarp only gets used 3-4 times a year.
I can't imagine that abrasion would have an affect that fast.
You may find that you end up using the tarp more often, and the abrasion could happen pretty quickly in a windy location. Also, if it doesn't wear through until the second or third year, it's still undesirable. My $ .02. :)
So about, what is the cost for making a cubin fiber tarp?:D
Clockw3rk
10-19-2012, 18:11
Nice post! I'm saving for cuben!
BushcraftNsite
12-18-2012, 23:39
So do you guys really think cuben tarp is worth all the money? Im thinking of biting the bullet and getting one
xcrazydx
12-19-2012, 00:07
So do you guys really think cuben tarp is worth all the money? Im thinking of biting the bullet and getting one
Perhaps if that's the last item in your pack your are looking to lighten up on. There are far more things that shave more weight than a few ounces lighter for a tarp.
It saves a few ounces and doesn't stretch like silnylon when wet.
Weigh you're options and your wallet and decide if that's worth it.
xcrazydx has his feet planted firmly in reality, so listen up. Then go buy a tarp; they're worth it. Good luck! :)
SGT Rock
12-19-2012, 22:42
It is hard to say for someone else. For me it was.
not sure if this is the same primer ?? but it looks to me like its just a cleaner :-)
3M VHB Surface Preparation Products
To obtain optimum adhesion for 3M VHB Tapes, the bonding surfaces must be clean, dry and well unified. Typical cleaning solvents are 3M VHB Cleaner, a mix of isopropyl alcohol and water or heptane. The alternative 3M VHB Surface Cleaner Sachets and Scotch Brite 7447 Hand Pads.
SGT Rock
01-08-2013, 17:09
I don't know if it is the same stuff. WV would know better.
http://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/c-340-3m-vhb-surface-preparation-products.aspx
I found that text here
42
SGT Rock
01-14-2013, 07:32
http://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/p-1237-3m-primer-94.aspx
That is the stuff we use.
Big Bacon
01-16-2013, 21:49
love the vid i learned a whole lot about working with this fabric. my question is if you used a web loop insted of 550 cord than doubled it like you did would i still need to sew it
SGT Rock
01-16-2013, 22:04
Yes. I'm pretty sure you would.
Nature_nathan
02-04-2013, 23:36
Very nice!
Hey, Sarge. I started trying to cut cuben on one of those cutting sheets, too. The problem I ran into was the wheel would start to press the material into the groove it created on the board. I had some 1/8" MDF type sheets with a slick side that you'd use for a wall covering to protect my dining table. I turned it over to the coarse back side and realized that it was wonderful for cutting cuben. I mean like butta'! It was amazing! Also, I definitely agree that it is great to have a partner help with cuben projects.
SGT Rock
02-13-2013, 15:25
Hey, Sarge. I started trying to cut cuben on one of those cutting sheets, too. The problem I ran into was the wheel would start to press the material into the groove it created on the board. I had some 1/8" MDF type sheets with a slick side that you'd use for a wall covering to protect my dining table. I turned it over to the coarse back side and realized that it was wonderful for cutting cuben. I mean like butta'! It was amazing! Also, I definitely agree that it is great to have a partner help with cuben projects.
I've had problems cutting sometimes if I don't press hard enough, and sometimes even when I do. I'll have to look for that sheet you mention when I do another cuben project.
hangnout
02-13-2013, 19:12
I have been working with a few cuben projects over the last few months. I have found that a standard utility razor blade works best for me. I use the blade by itself most of the time.
DemostiX
02-13-2013, 19:44
Think of it as fiber-reinforced film and not as fabric, and preferred ways of working with it come to mind first.
Just got around to watching this. The possiblities of Cuben are awesome. Just wish it wasn't so darn expensive.
Firetruck
04-02-2013, 16:13
Does anyone know if this tape will bond silnylon?
Edit: I was told it would not adhere to silnylon.
fishbait
04-11-2013, 15:44
Just got around to watching this. The possiblities of Cuben are awesome. Just wish it wasn't so darn expensive.
No kidding it definitely makes you think twice about Cuben DIY projects.
Sarge, thanks for the video, you've got me thinking about tackling a project like this, but first I'll have to put aside the a little bit of money for the materials.
The best way to get started with Cuben is to make some no-sew stuff sacks. All you need is some Cuben and some two-sided tape, draw cord, cord lock and presto you're done.
Watch this video and you all be amazed how quick you can make a stuff sack.
Click here to see video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mvtZMxINZU&feature=youtu.be)
Thanks for the video, Sarge.
Ordered the material for a 9x10 tarp and expect it to arrive soon. Can't wait!
Just got a Fiskars cutting mat, 18x24, for this and other DIY projects. I appreciate hangnout's tip above about a razor. Discovered recently that a razor strop keeps a nice edge on them.
I'll try 3M VHB tape for the main ridgeline seam and Loctite plastic epoxy for reinforcements and tabs.
.
DemostiX
05-20-2013, 10:16
The best way to get started with Cuben is to make some no-sew stuff sacks. All you need is some Cuben and some two-sided tape, draw cord, cord lock and presto you're done.
Watch this video and you all be amazed how quick you can make a stuff sack.
Click here to see video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mvtZMxINZU&feature=youtu.be)
Funny, how my professionally-made cuben stuff sacks are failing at the seams and failing at creases.
So, yes, stuff sacks are easily made of cuben. But, imo, it is the wrong material for the purpose. When there's minimal mass to begin with, there are minimal weight savings to be had, and micro-fractures in the film eventually cause the sack to fail, where "eventual" means, in my experience, long before a quality sil-nylon sack fails.
SGT Rock
05-22-2013, 08:32
Funny, how my professionally-made cuben stuff sacks are failing at the seams and failing at creases.
So, yes, stuff sacks are easily made of cuben. But, imo, it is the wrong material for the purpose. When there's minimal mass to begin with, there are minimal weight savings to be had, and micro-fractures in the film eventually cause the sack to fail, where "eventual" means, in my experience, long before a quality sil-nylon sack fails.
After using cuben stuff sacks for a couple of years I would have to agree, most of mine fail due to abrasions.
The real point of the video was to point out to those SUL hikers that use lightweight disposable back packs meant for the purpose of one thru hike (zpacks for instance) that you could make a set per thru hike...certainly not as a long term product...additionally there are many members here that have cuben tarps and that will eventually experience breakdown of the material but I don't see too many complaining... it's all about what you want out of your equipment HYOH :cool:
SGT Rock
05-22-2013, 21:32
The real point of the video was to point out to those SUL hikers that use lightweight disposable back packs meant for the purpose of one thru hike (zpacks for instance) that you could make a set per thru hike...certainly not as a long term product...additionally there are many members here that have cuben tarps and that will eventually experience breakdown of the material but I don't see too many complaining... it's all about what you want out of your equipment HYOH :cool:
Agreed. I still use cuben stuff sacks with the understanding they will need replacing regularly.
aka.jobbe
06-23-2013, 14:50
is the stufsak and everything en cuben includet in the omount you bought?
When you are taken down the tarp, do you fold it before putting it in the stufsak, og just press it in there as you go?
is the stufsak and everything en cuben includet in the omount you bought?
Yup
When you are taken down the tarp, do you fold it before putting it in the stufsak, og just press it in there as you go?
stuff it
Awesome Info Here! I'm gonna try my hand at a fully bonded(hysol u-09FL) cuben catenary tarp in the coming months.
Tehghost132
08-05-2013, 22:18
I would love to make my own tarp, but **** if im not scared of messing up that expensive material. I'll give it a try for sure someday, thanks for the video!
Flounder
08-06-2013, 03:52
Tegghost132, if you want to play around with cuben to see if the DIY approach is for you without making a huge investment in materials, you should check out the below link. Yama Mountain Gear sells DIY cuben stuff sack kits that come with everything you need and they have videos on the steps necessary to construct them. They are reasonably priced. The steps are applicable should you want to make your own tarp.
http://www.yamamountaingear.com/gear-room/kits/cuben-fiber-stuff-sacks
Tehghost132
08-06-2013, 04:09
Tegghost132, if you want to play around with cuben to see if the DIY approach is for you without making a huge investment in materials, you should check out the below link. Yama Mountain Gear sells DIY cuben stuff sack kits that come with everything you need and they have videos on the steps necessary to construct them. They are reasonably priced. The steps are applicable should you want to make your own tarp.
http://www.yamamountaingear.com/gear-room/kits/cuben-fiber-stuff-sacks
Thats great! Ordered it.
SGT Rock,
I like your corner tie-outs, but I didn't see anything about the side tie-outs. Did I miss those?
Thanks,
Patrick
SGT Rock
08-15-2013, 18:53
SGT Rock,
I like your corner tie-outs, but I didn't see anything about the side tie-outs. Did I miss those?
Thanks,
Patrick
They were in there. When I was sewing.
FrActOwL
09-12-2013, 02:02
This is priceless. Where to get Cuben now.
4 years later, still top notch! Does anyone one have any "heads up" tips before starting or updates to this fine instructional!?!
T,Monk, your question prompted me to read through this whole thread again. ("My whole life flashed before my eyes....") :laugh: Yes, the info is pretty good throughout. Go for it. Looking back on all my cuben experiments, I don't have a single instance of a bond failing, but I have always designed for shear strength and avoided anything that would apply peel forces. As an experimenter, one thing I like about cuben is that I can modify my tarp's shape simply by cutting and pasting. My current tarp has gone through 4 or 5 configurations (and looks it) but each patchwork seam is a place where the tarp is stronger, not weaker, and there is very little added weight. Remember, adhesive transfer tape is just the adhesive, no actual tape.
Lately, I've been working with some of the lightest weight cuben, CT.3K.08, which is about a 1/3 oz. per square yard. This has been considered too weak for tarps from the beginning, and it's not used for much else either, but it makes great stuff sacks for organizing gear within my pack. These are the only things that I sew, because I want the peel strength of a sewn seam, and I don't want the seams to be airtight. The biggest danger to a cuben stuff sack (especially a drybag) is trapping air in it and popping it like a balloon. I also used it for the bottom layer of an insulated hammock, and when my heel put too much stress in one place it ripped, but the rip only went as far as the 1/2" baffle seam. The taped baffle seam acted like a ripstop line. I may try making an ultralight tarp with my remaining 7 yards of this stuff, adding ripstop lines of DIY 1/2" cuben tape.
I now suggest CT1K.18 for tarps, though my old, strong patchwork tarp is CT.6K.08. Good luck!
Oh yeah. I now conclude that tieouts using a 2" batten taped to the tarp edge are better than some sewn tieouts. I use 1/8" carbon fiber tube or rod for battens, but a piece of 1/4" dowel works well, too. It takes multiple layers of DIY cuben tape to make the connection strong enough. Then poke or burn a hole next to the batten and tie to it.
I cut cuben with a soldering gun and straightedge on a glass surface (masonite and formica work, too.)
"As an experimenter, one thing I like about cuben is that I can modify my tarp's shape simply by cutting and pasting. My current tarp has gone through 4 or 5 configurations (and looks it)."
I hear you on that statement WV,
just finished cutting & taping up a catenary ridgeline into my old faithful, ugly but serviceable ....a all tape & no sew cuben tarp has been so much stronger than I ever thought it would be. Amazing stuff.
SGT Rock
07-24-2015, 18:39
I had my first fabric failure after about 5 years. A small hole developed near one of the tie outs which I patched with some cube "tape". I can attest to the rebuilding of a cube tarp as I just took a wedge out of mine in an attempt to give it a catanary ridge. I don't think I took out quite enough and may go back and take a little more out.
I just took a wedge out of mine in an attempt to give it a catanary ridge. I don't think I took out quite enough and may go back and take a little more out.
I have that same feeling...had a quick looky-see strung up in the garage, but I'll try it out in the
bush a few times before I make a decision to modify it some more.
CoconutTree
12-16-2015, 12:04
I had my first fabric failure after about 5 years. A small hole developed near one of the tie outs which I patched with some cube "tape". I can attest to the rebuilding of a cube tarp as I just took a wedge out of mine in an attempt to give it a catanary ridge. I don't think I took out quite enough and may go back and take a little more out.
Can I ask how deep a curve you used (how long and how deep)? i want a mild catenary curve, but not sure where the boundary is between too little and just right. I have read 48:1 ratio will work.
Hi, I was looking, and it seems the video no longer works? Does someone have a link to the one that does work?
Hi, I was looking, and it seems the video no longer works? Does someone have a link to the one that does work?
I was wondering the same thing.
Can't seem to wrap my head around how to do the ridge line seam.
hangnout
01-02-2017, 16:01
I was wondering the same thing.
Can't seem to wrap my head around how to do the ridge line seam.
All you have to do is use the cuben tape (adhesive) and overlap the 2 sides. If you have 1" tape that would be best. If you only have .5" tape use that then cover the top seam with the 1" repair tape most of the vendors sell.
Seeing this old thread active again makes me wonder what has happened to SGT ROCK? I tried a while back to contact him about BMT info but his online presence has vanished.
Seeing this old thread active again makes me wonder what has happened to SGT ROCK? I tried a while back to contact him about BMT info but his online presence has vanished.
On getti79q87qqqyng 7 7 h3 A good 1Q WE 77976w
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SilvrSurfr
03-07-2017, 16:21
On getti79q87qqqyng 7 7 h3 A good 1Q WE 77976w
Good to know!
I wonder how that post was even on my phone to reply to. The mystery if the mysterious pocket post. Sorry guys but hope a walk down memory lane was alright.
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On getti79q87qqqyng 7 7 h3 A good 1Q WE 77976w
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How disappointing, I was hoping for a more positive response........
On getti79q87qqqyng 7 7 h3 A good 1Q WE 77976w
The clues to Sgt Rock's location within.
On getti79q87qqqyng 7 7 h3 A good 1Q WE 77976w
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Well.....thanks?
On getti79q87qqqyng 7 7 h3 A good 1Q WE 77976w
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How did you get the co-ordinates to the Lost City of the Monkey God?!
Ive been there. And i saw the white elephant while i was at it.
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Kayak_Medic
11-16-2017, 14:53
Seeing this old thread active again makes me wonder what has happened to SGT ROCK? I tried a while back to contact him about BMT info but his online presence has vanished.
I was browsing the thread to see if there was an updated link for the video since it no longer works. Saw your comment, and figured I'd check his profile. It has a link to his own website www.hikinghq.net so I checked that briefly, and the home page has a post he made back in April. I'm guessing you could contact him through that site if you wanted.
gunner76
11-16-2017, 21:54
Check out this Youtube link on DIY Cuben tarp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdTCBJ2lH4U