View Full Version : "Structural Ridge line" why not "Sag-Defining"
creekfisher
03-26-2008, 13:15
Hello,
I got interested in the "ridge line" topic. I have read the BIG thread and the patent.
I don't understand why the term "structural ridge line" is being used to describe Mr. Hennessy's design/concept/patent. The patent refers to a "ridge cord" which sets/defines the "sag" of the hammock. It appears to me that he has patented the idea of using a ridge line to define sag. The structural nature of the ridge line appears to be of little or no consequence in terms of novelty. So, why is the term "structural" being used?
Also, it appears to me that the patent is quite specific in explaining the ridge cord. The patent clearly states that, ". . . the effective length of the [ridge] cord is shorter than the length of the sheet of material."
Why was JRB's ridge line a point of controversy. It was longer than the sheet of material.
angrysparrow
03-26-2008, 13:44
First, welcome to the forum.
Second, it's quite refreshing to have a new member spend the time to thoroughly read and understand the previous topics of the forum before posting. That eliminates many of the repetitive questions that are asked here. Thank you for taking time to do so.
As to your questions - The term structural ridgeline, I believe, was coined in the early parts of the long thread that you read. I do not recall seeing it elsewhere before that discourse. It is clear that the term is used to describe a ridgeline that is part of the 'structure' of the suspension itself, thus setting the sag. I agree that your term seems more descriptively on point, though.
I'm not sure that anyone but HH, JRB, and their legal counsel can speak directly to the controversy of their initial ridge line design. From what I've gleaned, the merit of those discussions have not been disclosed publicly. While it would be interesting to know further details, the delicacy of the matter makes me that isn't likely.
YMMV
This is one of those things that probibly never will be completely decided. My advice is just to go with it.
warbonnetguy
03-26-2008, 17:33
so the bmbh have no ridgeline anymore?
headchange4u
03-27-2008, 08:12
I'm pretty sure that JRB removed their ridge line on the BMB due to complaints from Tom Hennessy.
creekfisher,
Welcome to hammock forums, neighbor. :D
Youngblood
03-27-2008, 09:07
As to your questions - The term structural ridgeline, I believe, was coined in the early parts of the long thread that you read. I do not recall seeing it elsewhere before that discourse. It is clear that the term is used to describe a ridgeline that is part of the 'structure' of the suspension itself, thus setting the sag. I agree that your term seems more descriptively on point, though.
I don't know whether or not I coined the term structural ridgeline or not, but I have been using it for years. I have used the terms structural ridgeline and non-structural ridgeline to distinguish between hammocks that use a structural ridgeline to set the sag of the hammock like Hennessy Hammocks do versus hammocks that use a non-structural ridgeline that supports the bugnet but it is either adjusted manually or uses some type of shock cord so that it does not affect the sag angle of the occupied hammock.
How Hennessy interprets the the breath, application, or terminology of their patents is a separate issue. For me, the distinction of a structural ridgeline versus a non-structural ridgeline was important because some people were trying to hang a hammock with a non-structural ridgeline, or no ridgeline at all, like they saw other folks hang their hammocks that had a structural ridgeline-- initially taut. Usually that resulted in a hammock that was hung with too small of a sag angle and wasn't as comfortable as it should have been if it was hung with more sag.
creekfisher
03-27-2008, 10:18
Mr. Womble's post answered my questions.
I was hung-up on the term "structural ridgeline" since ridgelines in general seem to be inherently structural whether they are defining sag or holding up bug nets.
Youngblood
03-27-2008, 10:47
Thanks for the welcome and insights.
I would like to learn more about the legal issues; this aspect of the topic is most interesting to me.
What are the definitions for:
(1) Ridgeline?
(2) Ridge cord?
AND
What is the difference, if any, between a "ridgeline" and a "structural ridgeline?"
Thanks - Craig
Any particular reason for the interest in the legal issues and how the specific wording is interpreted... your questions sound like something someone trying to defend or challenge a patent might ask? Maybe you should clarify what your motives are and what you are trying to accomplish.
headchange4u
03-27-2008, 10:53
Just Jeff has a great intro to the different types of ridge lines:
http://tothewoods.net/HomemadeHammock4.html
angrysparrow
03-27-2008, 11:14
I was hung-up on the term "structural ridgeline" since ridgelines in general seem to be inherently structural whether they are defining sag or holding up bug nets.
For future readers of this thread, posted below is the best definition of structural vs non-structural that I've seen:
Structural Ridgeline - A ridge cord that exists between the ends of the hammock having an effective length less than the length of the hammock's main body fabric, whereby when the hammock is attached to a pair of trees a certain minimum sag is maintained in the fabric no matter how tightly the suspension is drawn.
Non-Structural Ridgeline - A ridgeline that does not conform to the above definition.
warbonnetguy
03-27-2008, 11:41
yes, but like cf pointed out, a ridgeline on a bridge would be longer than the fabric of the hammock but still define the sag. it would also be possible to have a structural ridgeline on an end-gathered design that would be longer than the fabric also, the ridgeline would just have to be a couple feet higher. (farther up the support ropes).
angrysparrow
03-27-2008, 12:43
yes, but like cf pointed out, a ridgeline on a bridge would be longer than the fabric of the hammock but still define the sag. it would also be possible to have a structural ridgeline on an end-gathered design that would be longer than the fabric also, the ridgeline would just have to be a couple feet higher. (farther up the support ropes).
Those are certainly valid points. Have a better-worded definition that encompases those exceptions? :)
warbonnetguy
03-27-2008, 14:29
sure, how bout: Structural Ridgeline - A ridge cord that exists between the ends of the hammock, whereby when the hammock is attached to a pair of trees a certain minimum sag is maintained in the fabric no matter how tightly the suspension is drawn. such a ridgeline has the ability to take some of the load of the user and because of this should be made from as low stretch material as possible.
isn't there already a definition in the glossary here somewhere:) ?
creekfisher
03-27-2008, 19:51
Any particular reason for the interest in the legal issues and how the specific wording is interpreted... your questions sound like something someone trying to defend or challenge a patent might ask? Maybe you should clarify what your motives are and what you are trying to accomplish.
Youngblood,
Several years ago I discussed "nail knots" with you on Yahoo in reference to affixing elastic cord to tarp tie-outs. Since then, I have not really checked-in on the hammock scene (I have been happily using my Hennessy).
I needed a new a hammock so I started to look around and I found this forum. I started reading, looking at JRB's Bridge hammock, reading about the controversy, and I just got interested in the topic. For me, finding ways around patents is a form of fun and that is the extent of my interest.
Thanks for all of your contributions to hammock camping. I'm thinking about buying the UQ you designed. It looks very nice!!
Regards,
Craig
creekfisher
03-27-2008, 20:09
sure, how bout: Structural Ridgeline - A ridge cord that exists between the ends of the hammock, whereby when the hammock is attached to a pair of trees a certain minimum sag is maintained in the fabric no matter how tightly the suspension is drawn. such a ridgeline has the ability to take some of the load of the user and because of this should be made from as low stretch material as possible.
isn't there already a definition in the glossary here somewhere:) ?
Where is the glossary? :D
How about this:
Ridgeline = Structural Ridgeline = Ridge Cord: A cord affixed between at least two, preferably wholly or substantially stationary, objects. Said cord is normally affixed in a manner which provides structure to some other object.
angrysparrow
03-27-2008, 20:47
Where is the glossary? :D
It's hidden away in the Articles section, here (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=192).
Also in the articles section are some DIY guides to making Bridge Hammocks, including a multipart one by TeeDee. If you like the tedium of patent circumvention, you'd probably enjoy seeing how the Bridge evolved.
creekfisher
03-28-2008, 16:44
It's hidden away in the Articles section, here (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=192).
Also in the articles section are some DIY guides to making Bridge Hammocks, including a multipart one by TeeDee. If you like the tedium of patent circumvention, you'd probably enjoy seeing how the Bridge evolved.
Thanks for the info. I would give the term ridgeline a very broad definition and then use qualifying terms to narrow the definition for specific cases.
In the following patent the term ridgeline is used to describe Hennessy's ridge cord. It looks like the person who wrote this patent feels that the two terms are synonymous.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=2&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=6701549&OS=6701549&RS=6701549
Regards,
Craig