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nogods
04-25-2008, 11:50
The upcoming review of camping hammocks in Backpacker magazine is probably going to cause an increased interest in hammock camping

I learned of hammock camping from an equipment review in my local paper and then searching the net for more info brought me here. I spent 35 years backpacking and ground sleeping with tents, tarps, and biveys, but after just a few weeks of lurking I was convinced to give hammock camping a try. Now I use one of my three hammocks almost exclusively when staying on the trail, except I still use a bivey in a lean-to in the winter.

I'm guessing the same will be true for a lot of people who come across the backpacker magazine article as subscribers, or from searching the net, or from reading articles written in local papers by outdoor writers who discover the backpacker magazine article. And a lot of them are going to find their way to this forum.

I'd like to suggest that the forum add a category about hammock camping “best practices" for members to discuss ways in which hammock campers might reduce the impact of our chosen shelter on the environment and on fellow campers. Sort of an ethics and etiquette topic. Not just another LTN set of rules, but rather discussions about things specific to use of a hammock.

I hate rules as much as anyone when I'm in the wilderness. I go to the wilderness to be wild and free, not restrained and directed. But unfortunately, most of our readily accessible wilderness is managed, and that means rules and regulations we have to live with. Some self-regulation is also needed to prevent wilderness managers from concluding that even more regulation is needed.

I think this forum more than any other is the place for issues about best practices and etiquette when hammock camping. I certainly don't think we should leave that topic to ground dwellers.

Some of the obvious topics are hanging location, tree selection, and method of tree attachment.

Or maybe the owners and moderators should get together and propose a set of best practices to begin such a discussion.

In any event, now that I'm a "donating" member I feel free to make such suggestions and so I did.

fin
04-25-2008, 13:11
NoGods, I'm with you. There are a lot of different threads with ideas about the best way to be low impact and preserve our ability to use our shelter of choice against those with limited views, but having one place to put them all might be a good idea. Include it with the Hammock Primer that has been talked about, even though Jeff http://www.tothewoods.net/ has one of the best sites I've ever seen for newbies, and Risk http://www.imrisk.com/ has a great site as well. Maybe a re-index of the site utilizing keywords as suggested in another thread that I was reading somewhere in this site the other day. As a computer guy myself, I know it would help indexing or searches if people always used the title in their posts to categorize their comments.

Maybe we wouldn't have to create a new category per se, just make a "category" ;) link that would be a pre-programmed search of the "subject", which would pull all threads pertaining to said subject, and format it in a "pretty" way. Lots of ways to do this, it deserves some thought. :)

slowhike
04-25-2008, 16:08
I hate rules as much as anyone when I'm in the wilderness. I go to the wilderness to be wild and free, not restrained and directed. But unfortunately, most of our readily accessible wilderness is managed, and that means rules and regulations we have to live with. Some self-regulation is also needed to prevent wilderness managers from concluding that even more regulation is needed.

Yep, "With freedom comes responsibility".
i'm not sure where i herd that, but it applies perfectly to a lot of areas of life.

good points guys. lets keep working on this line of thought.

Rat
04-25-2008, 19:24
Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry his own weight, this is a frightening prospect.

Eleanor Roosevelt

Truer words were never spoken.

headchange4u
04-25-2008, 19:29
In any event, now that I'm a "donating" member I feel free to make such suggestions and so I did.

You (and others) should feel free to make suggestions like this all you want, donating member or not. :D

Hammock camping is already much lower impact on the environment than tents or tarp. I have heard several times that when you set up a tent on the ground it can take up to 2 weeks for the vegetation in that spot to recover. You basically crush a large area when you set up a tent, but it had never really crossed my mind until I started hammock camping. Now when I break camp there is hardly a trace that I was even there. I only leave footprints.

When I set up my hammock I try to pick and area where I won't have to clear any of the under brush if I can help it. I also like to pick trees where the bark won't be damaged by the webbing. Certain trees do better than others .

gunn parker
04-25-2008, 20:57
This discussion HERE (http://tinyurl.com/6hzpfv) might be worth reading for some of the newer guys.
Gunn

nogods
04-25-2008, 21:27
Hammock camping is already much lower impact on the environment than tents or tarp. I have heard several times that when you set up a tent on the ground it can take up to 2 weeks for the vegetation in that spot to recover. You basically crush a large area when you set up a tent, but it had never really crossed my mind until I started hammock camping. Now when I break camp there is hardly a trace that I was even there. I only leave footprints.


Some wilderness administrators understand that point. For example, last year I had email correspondence with a senior forest ranger regarding the upcoming restriction on camping in designated sites in the high peaks wilderness area of the Adirondacks. Here is the portion of his response with regard to use of hammocks:

"At the time the regulations were written, hammocks were much less in use, and generally not widely available. The spirit of the 15 ft regulation is to minimize the impact of camping on the ground (the "tent" footprint) to the immediate vicinity of the campsite. I hope that as we revisit the management of the HPWA, the Department will consider further these regulations in light of the natural resource protection benefits that arise out of the use of hammocks. While I do not expect that they would be allowed outside of designated campsites in the eastern HPWA, I would hope that consideration would be given to clarifying their status via-a-vis the definition of tent, to allow them to be located at a greater distance form the center of the campsite."

So at least there is one administer who views hammocks as a lesser impact on the wilderness. But we have a long road ahead in convincing others because a lot of people think hanging anything from a tree is worse than trampling some grass and moss.

Narwhalin
04-26-2008, 02:12
Some wilderness administrators understand that point. For example, last year I had email correspondence with a senior forest ranger regarding the upcoming restriction on camping in designated sites in the high peaks wilderness area of the Adirondacks. here is the porion of his response with refard to use of hammocks:

"At the time the regulations were written, hammocks were much less in use, and generally not widely available. The spirit of the 15 ft regulation is to minimize the impact of camping on the ground (the "tent" footprint) to the immediate vicinity of the campsite. I hope that as we revisit the management of the HPWA, the Department will consider further these regulations in light of the natural resource protection benefits that arise out of the use of hammocks. While I do not expect that they would be allowed outside of designated campsites in the eastern HPWA, I would hope that consideration would be given to clarifying their status via-a-vis the definition of tent, to allow them to be located at a greater distance form the center of the campsite."

So at least there is one administer who views hammocks as a lesser impact on the wilderness. But we have a long road ahead in convincing others because a lot of people think hanging anything from a tree is worse than trampling some grass and moss.

Perhaps someone should put together a video showing the effects of a tent crushing the ground in various terrain. Then, we could really see how long it takes for that spot to return to normal. Does anyone here like to watch grass grow? Now you have a chance to watch it bend upward! :D Also, part of the video could "arrive" at a recently dispersed camp and have the viewer guess where the tents were and where the hammocks were.

Most importantly, it would be a nice thing to have a video showing how friendly webbing is to the trees. I think the NooB video being discussed would be a very good venue for showing that the technique has evolved past just tying a rope to a tree.

bear bag hanger
04-27-2008, 10:03
Maybe slightly off topic here. But only a little. I think the damage tents do to the ground is, maybe, about equal to the damage we do to the trees. Below is my opinion, I haven't spent a lot of time formally studying this.

I've been using hammocks for about five or six years now. During my 2004 AT thru hike, I talked to several rangers, of interest is one in the Smokies and another one in the New Hampshire Whites. Both mentioned they do not ticket people using hammocks in the wrong places, but not to tell anyone where I heard it.

On the other hand, I've observed my own hammock does damage to the trees I hang on, even it it's just a little. I use one inch stapping to minimize this damage, but it's still there. I have tried using two inch wide tree savers, but still noticed as much damage as the narrower straps. Early on, I noticed rope does a whole lot more damage and shouldn't be used.

Usually, when I come into a campsite, I can tell which trees have been used for hanging. I also can see when a tree gets used a lot. It will eventually kill the tree. I think a single tree can be used several times a year without harm, but when it gets used several times a week, all the time, it will die. I don't think anyone has ever done a study to see how many times a tree can be used before permanent damage is done. Even the hard bark trees will die if used too much. I've also observed that when a tent tamps down the grass, etc. it comes back pretty fast if not used over and over again.

I've been reading other threads about hammock stands, but still haven't seen anything remotely useable for backpacking. If we start getting a large percentage of campers using hammocks, this may be our only salvation.

I still, of course, use my hammock. Tents aren't exactly great for the environment either. But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking we don't hurt anything when we go out there.

OK, let the flames begin ...

attroll
04-27-2008, 10:55
This is a good idea. Is anyone up for the challenge to create this article?

I think this should also be in the articles section. This web site is slowly growing and we are the only hammock forum that I know on the web. We need to get everything in place so when others come here they can use this forum as there hammock bible or quick reference guide. I don’t know what articles Nogods is referring to but if it is in the upcoming backpacker magazine then I am sure our traffic will increase and so will our users.

If anyone has any articles they would like to submit please do so. If you are not good with articles then submit them to me in work and I will put the article on the site for you.

If you have any suggestion for articles then let everyone else know here and maybe someone will take your suggestion and write one.

slowhike
04-27-2008, 14:34
Maybe slightly off topic here. But only a little. I think the damage tents do to the ground is, maybe, about equal to the damage we do to the trees. Below is my opinion, I haven't spent a lot of time formally studying this.

I've been using hammocks for about five or six years now. During my 2004 AT thru hike, I talked to several rangers, of interest is one in the Smokies and another one in the New Hampshire Whites. Both mentioned they do not ticket people using hammocks in the wrong places, but not to tell anyone where I heard it.

On the other hand, I've observed my own hammock does damage to the trees I hang on, even it it's just a little. I use one inch stapping to minimize this damage, but it's still there. I have tried using two inch wide tree savers, but still noticed as much damage as the narrower straps. Early on, I noticed rope does a whole lot more damage and shouldn't be used.

Usually, when I come into a campsite, I can tell which trees have been used for hanging. I also can see when a tree gets used a lot. It will eventually kill the tree. I think a single tree can be used several times a year without harm, but when it gets used several times a week, all the time, it will die. I don't think anyone has ever done a study to see how many times a tree can be used before permanent damage is done. Even the hard bark trees will die if used too much. I've also observed that when a tent tamps down the grass, etc. it comes back pretty fast if not used over and over again.

I've been reading other threads about hammock stands, but still haven't seen anything remotely useable for backpacking. If we start getting a large percentage of campers using hammocks, this may be our only salvation.

I still, of course, use my hammock. Tents aren't exactly great for the environment either. But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking we don't hurt anything when we go out there.

OK, let the flames begin ...

not flaming, but i can't say that i agree w/ your acessment my friend<G>.
i don't have trees in the best places to use regularly in my back yard, but i've herd of others talk about using the same trees in their yard on a fairly regular basis w/ no sign of stress on the trees.

this is an area that could use a lot more research (collecting precise & useful data), but my basic thoughts at this time are that just like staying warm, there are a number of variables...
type of tree
size of tree
age of tree
condition of tree
type of hammock support
method of attaching hammock support to tree
amount of sag
weight of the loaded hammock
how much swinging the hammocker does

there are more no doubt but that's a start<G>.

slowhike
04-27-2008, 14:37
This is a good idea. Is anyone up for the challenge to create this article?

I think this should also be in the articles section. This web site is slowly growing and we are the only hammock forum that I know on the web. We need to get everything in place so when others come here they can use this forum as there hammock bible or quick reference guide. I don’t know what articles Nogods is referring to but if it is in the upcoming backpacker magazine then I am sure our traffic will increase and so will our users.

If anyone has any articles they would like to submit please do so. If you are not good with articles then submit them to me in work and I will put the article on the site for you.

If you have any suggestion for articles then let everyone else know here and maybe someone will take your suggestion and write one.

thanks attroll. hopefully we will continue to work at this & put together a highly respectable information source here.

nogods
04-27-2008, 15:05
Maybe slightly off topic here. But only a little. I think the damage tents do to the ground is, maybe, about equal to the damage we do to the trees.

Around my house and in the hardword forest near my home I have not noticed any damage to the trees I've hung my hammock on.

But the first time I used the hammock in the Adirondacks the evergreen trees in our campsite had scaly type bark that readily flew off even with the use of webbing as tree straps. We didn't notice it until the next day because we set up camp in the dark in a downpour and were rushed to get dry and into the hammocks. The next day we moved the camp and used evergreen trees that didn't have that condition and saw no noticible damage.

Now lets assume for discussion that those trees we used the first night were damaged by hammocks. The simple solution is for hammock users to avoid that type of tree. Thus, a best practices in this case could be a list of trees that suffer the least damage from hanging. That's the type of information I was thinking about when I started this thread.

Arborists claim that the straps they use for tree climbing (both for work and recreation) do not harm the trees they climb. Perhaps we can get an aborists on board to help with this issue.

slowhike
04-27-2008, 15:16
Around my house and in the hardword forest near my home I have not noticed any damage to the trees I've hung my hammock on.

But the first time I used the hammock in the Adirondacks the evergreen trees in our campsite had scaly type bark that readily flew off even with the use of webbing as tree straps. We didn't notice it until the next day because we set up camp in the dark in a downpour and were rushed to get dry and into the hammocks. The next day we moved the camp and used evergreen trees that didn't have that condition and saw no noticible damage.

Now lets assume for discussion that those trees we used the first night were damaged by hammocks. The simple solution is for hammock users to avoid that type of tree. Thus, a best practices in this case could be a list of trees that suffer the least damage from hanging. That's the type of information I was thinking about when I started this thread.

Arborists claim that the straps they use for tree climbing (both for work and recreation) do not harm the trees they climb. Perhaps we can get an aborists on board to help with this issue.

on a few occasions i have used trees that had a looser, scaly bark that would shed easily.
a couple thoughts come to mind...
1)... when i noticed any concern w/ the bark, i would wrap the strap around the tree a full loop rather than just going around the back side were it could leave more chance of slippage.
whether that is best practice or not, i don't know, but it's a thought.
2)... the outermost layers of bark are often more of a protective layer rather that the transporter of nutrients like the inner layer (cambium).
some trees survive pretty hot fires because of the protective bark.

getting a tree expert on board would be great.

warbonnetguy
04-27-2008, 15:21
if you stealth camp, what is the liklihood that that those trees will get hung from again? if you make sure to walk well off the trail and stay far away from designated campsites, it's likely you will be the only one to hang from that tree. i don't think slight abrasion to bark is necessarily damage unless it happens frequently and extensively enough to to wear completely through the bark. bark is dead wood, and it is a protective cover that also regenerates i believe. as long as trees aren't over used it seems like it shouldn't be a problem, dispersion seems to be the key here, and stealth camping may be the answer. maybe there are some trees with extremely soft bark that should be avoided, but in general most trees should be able to handle occasional hanging without permanent damage i would think.

slowhike
04-27-2008, 18:50
yeah, i think there are a few types of trees w/ a thin, soft bark, that would best be avoided.

headchange4u
04-28-2008, 07:54
I have to say that the majority of trees that I hang from show little or no signs of damage from my hammock. I have hung from trees that have shown signs of wear from my webbing, but I try to avoid that type of tree.

This does raise a very interesting question. What type/species of trees are best suited for hanging your hammock?

If someone decides to tackle the article I think this would be some great info to be included with maybe some pictures of the different types of trees.

NCPatrick
04-28-2008, 09:46
It depends on whether those are the only two trees around or not. If you have a choice, I would hope you'd choose not to damage the tree.

I've heard that you can hang from certain types of cactus in the desert areas, maybe we should also research which variety of those is best as well. Or what about types of trees in Australia, etc.?

This could possibly be a long article.

Knowledgeengine
04-28-2008, 13:00
On the general basis of measuring all our new visitors as a possible result of the article, I wanted to make mention of Histats to slowhike/hc4u

I develop & manage a few websites, and I have been really happy with the reports I get from histats and it's free. I've been using it 2 weeks. www.histats.com I use the invisible counters, and can tell how many times each one of my pamphlets is printed, get a map that shows the location of all my visitors, etc...

Might be something good, so when we get a influx of visitors, you will be able to "see what they are trying to do" and then make changes to make that easier for them.

One more thing--whoever creates such a article might consider also submitting it to whiteblaze, and having links to us on there. To help make the transition easier for people who get misdirected looking for hammock websites.

slowhike
04-28-2008, 16:31
thanks Knowledgeengine. that looks interesting. we'll look into that.

slowhike
04-28-2008, 16:34
.
This does raise a very interesting question. What type/species of trees are best suited for hanging your hammock?


i think it would be better said "which trees to avoid hanging a hammock from".
there will be a much smaller number of tress to avoid.

attroll
04-29-2008, 00:29
On the general basis of measuring all our new visitors as a possible result of the article, I wanted to make mention of Histats to slowhike/hc4u

I develop & manage a few websites, and I have been really happy with the reports I get from histats and it's free. I've been using it 2 weeks. www.histats.com (http://www.histats.com) I use the invisible counters, and can tell how many times each one of my pamphlets is printed, get a map that shows the location of all my visitors, etc...

Might be something good, so when we get a influx of visitors, you will be able to "see what they are trying to do" and then make changes to make that easier for them.

One more thing--whoever creates such a article might consider also submitting it to whiteblaze, and having links to us on there. To help make the transition easier for people who get misdirected looking for hammock websites.
Knowledgeengine
It looks like this histats does the same thing that Google Analytics does. I have attached a PDF of what you get from Googel Analytics gives you.

Knowledgeengine
04-29-2008, 01:17
Knowledgeengine
It looks like this histats does the same thing that Google Analytics does. I have attached a PDF of what you get from Googel Analytics gives you.
I believe you are correct. They do both offer very similar functionality. As a matter of fact I am presently using both services. I'll see how this pans out.

schrochem
04-29-2008, 06:28
Well based on the stats attroll just linked, we have another issue about what trees not to use. It appears we aren't getting any visitors from Greenland.
Whose gonna step up and get over there and start recruiting? :D

Nails
04-29-2008, 08:14
Just throwing this out there...

I've argued here before (and I'm too lazy to find it and link it here) that Hennessey, Speer, and the other hammock makers should pool their resources to commission a study of what effects, if any, hammock use has on trees. I don't mean to discourage anyone from sharing info and informed opinion based on experience and expertise in an effort to minimize any environmental damage; but if this issue ever comes to some kind of confrontation, pro-hammock anectodal evidence is just as convincing/unconvincing as anti-hammock anecdotal evidence. The arborists who line up with hammockers will have their opinions cancelled out by those that line up against us. What will likely then happen is you'll get inconsistent policies towards hammock use until someone undertakes such a study as I suggest. The hammock makers have a financial stake in this argument and it is in their best interests to get ahead of the curve on this. If they don't, they (and we) may end up at the mercy of ill-informed opinion, or end up playing catch-up when a state or federal agency performs such a study.

That said, here's hoping we all take our LNT obligations seriously, and work together to preserve our [pick one: (1) enjoyable pastime; (2) unhealthy obession with hammocks and hammock accessories].

Iafte
04-29-2008, 09:39
My first hammock used ropes to go around the tree, they would leave marks so I upgraded to the ring buckles with 1inch straps. I see no damage if I chose my trees with a solid bark. Loose bark trees get damaged just by resting your hand on it to take a break.

I had a ranger lecture me when I was leaving a local park about how I could kill trees in the park by using a hammock on them. He saw the area I was reading my book in but not the exact trees I was hanging from, so we took a walk over and I asked him to show me what trees I was on since I damaged them. He picked 2 trees about 8 ft apart and said that they were the ones I was using. I told him my hammock body was 10 ft long and I couldn't hang from those if I wanted to.

After about talking and joking for about 30 minutes, he gave up and I set the hammock up the same way it was when I was reading. First he was amazed that I hung from 2 trees about 20ft apart, next he was amazed that there was no damage on the trees and 3rd he was amazed how cumfy the hammock was. :)

On the walk back to my car and his, I pointed out an area off the trail where someone had set up a tent. He said that alot of people stealth camp and they are always damaging the undergrowth.

slowhike
04-30-2008, 21:55
[QUOTE=Iafte;58840]
After about talking and joking for about 30 minutes, he gave up and I set the hammock up the same way it was when I was reading. First he was amazed that I hung from 2 trees about 20ft apart, next he was amazed that there was no damage on the trees and 3rd he was amazed how cumfy the hammock was. :)
QUOTE]

way to go Iafte!

Miguel
04-30-2008, 23:21
Maybe slightly off topic here. But only a little. I think the damage tents do to the ground is, maybe, about equal to the damage we do to the trees. Below is my opinion, I haven't spent a lot of time formally studying this.

I've been using hammocks for about five or six years now. During my 2004 AT thru hike, I talked to several rangers, of interest is one in the Smokies and another one in the New Hampshire Whites. Both mentioned they do not ticket people using hammocks in the wrong places, but not to tell anyone where I heard it.

On the other hand, I've observed my own hammock does damage to the trees I hang on, even it it's just a little. I use one inch stapping to minimize this damage, but it's still there. I have tried using two inch wide tree savers, but still noticed as much damage as the narrower straps. Early on, I noticed rope does a whole lot more damage and shouldn't be used.

Usually, when I come into a campsite, I can tell which trees have been used for hanging. I also can see when a tree gets used a lot. It will eventually kill the tree. I think a single tree can be used several times a year without harm, but when it gets used several times a week, all the time, it will die. I don't think anyone has ever done a study to see how many times a tree can be used before permanent damage is done. Even the hard bark trees will die if used too much. I've also observed that when a tent tamps down the grass, etc. it comes back pretty fast if not used over and over again.

I've been reading other threads about hammock stands, but still haven't seen anything remotely useable for backpacking. If we start getting a large percentage of campers using hammocks, this may be our only salvation.

I still, of course, use my hammock. Tents aren't exactly great for the environment either. But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking we don't hurt anything when we go out there.

OK, let the flames begin ...

No flames here. I do disagree....I've seen plenty of trees with peoples initials carved in them, nails driven in them etc, that have survived quite well. Trees are remarkably resilient. Regarding damage done from repeated hammock hanging.....in all the years of car camping in campgrounds, my grand total of hammock hanging sitings has been precisely......(drum roll please)....one! Other than mine, I've never seen one while backpacking. Frankly, I think the overall negative effects of hammock hanging is nil to none. Having said that, I do believe it is our moral responsibility to take every reasonable precaution to protect our environment.

Miguel

Youngblood
04-30-2008, 23:35
There are so many variables that it is difficult to get a good handle on what is happening. There are different types of trees, different weights in hammocks, different suspension systems, different basic hanging schemes where minimum stress is applied to the trees versus maximum stress applied to trees, wilderness camping in areas where trees grow like weeds versus high use camp grounds where trees are scarce and slow growing, and probably other variables as well.