Help with Vaper Barrier Socks

[Coffee]

For my next sewing project I am looking to make some vaper barrier socks. It is the one part of my cold weather hiking gear that I have not look at yet.

Question #1

Should I use sil or DWR ripstop? I have some of both, so that is not an issue. I was thinking that DWR would breath just enough to where my feet would not sweat as much. I know that no matter what, they are going to turn into a steam bath anyways. I am not worried about them being waterproof either. I am only going to wear them when it is too cold for my trail runners and regular wool socks.

Question #2

Does anyone have a good patter? Also I know most socks strech when you put them on, but the nylon will not. How much bigger should I make them? I am having problems finding a good pattern for them. I guess I could just wing it like I usually do. But I really don't want to have to remake them. Although for once my project will not involve multiple yards of fabric.

I could just use plastic bags, but where is the fun in that.

[blackbishop351]

I hope your feet don't sweat like mine do...I tried some goretex booties on a few trips and my feet were SOAKED. After I discovered Smartwool, I just wear two pair of those and goretex boots for cold trips...for some reason that works better.

You could take apart a pair of older (but decent-fitting) socks for a pattern. I'm going to try that when I attempt a pair of DWR/fleece pants for the Rogers trip.

[Coffee]

These are only going to be for when it is really cold. I think I would have to be hiking for awhile in sub freezing temps to need them. I am thinking more in terms of my thru. These should only weigh in at an once or so.

I thought about taking apart an old pair. But the problem is in the fit. My cotton, wool, and syn socks all stretch when I put them on.

My thought now is that I will take a normal sock pattern and add extra size to the whole thing. Maybe I will take apart that sock.

[Just Jeff]

I had most of this response typed and all the sudden it went to "This Page Cannot Be Displayed" so I lost it all!! GRRRR.... And of course it's never as good the second time. Anyway, here are some thoughts.

First, vapor barriers aren't vapor barriers if they're breathable...b/c then they're not a barrier to your vapor. You WANT your feet to sweat, b/c the VB traps in the moisture until your feet saturate and eventually stop producing sweat...so you'll stop losing heat from evaporation. If it's breathable, you'll be wet and clammy (like all VBs) but you'll still be losing evaporative heat so it won't work as well.

I've used breathable raingear as a pseudo-VB while sleeping and it helps, but I think using DWR on feet while being active would cause it to soak through. Maybe a little bit of benefit there, but still not really a VB.

Remember, socks are stretchy and sil is not, so using a normal sock for a VB pattern might not work so well, especially when putting them on and taking them off. Bill Fornshell posted a pattern for his VB socks on BPL a while ago. Or you could get these GoLite VB Socks (http://cgi.ebay.com/Golite-Go-lite-Vapor-Barrier-Socks-2-Pack-New-Free-Ship_W0QQitemZ130049853125QQihZ003QQcategoryZ2020Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem) from eBay for $13+s/h. They have a 50% chance of delaminating so you could get two and probably end up with one good pair (still a deal since according to them they retail for $65), or you could get a pair and cut them apart for the pattern. Or just look at the pics and figure out your own.

Many people complain about GoreTex boots making their feet sweat. That's b/c GoreTex doesn't really pass much moisture even under optimum conditions (cold and dry outside), so in more humid conditions it's almost a VB. But it's also b/c they're wearing insulation next to their skin (big socks), so their moisture soaks the insulation and it stays wet and clammy. For VB socks, wear just a thin liner sock, then your VB, then your thick insulating socks. That way the liner sock keeps your feet comfortable and keeps your insulation dry.

One more thing - your feet will always be clammy in a VB, so you should manage the time you wear them so you don't get trench foot. Either sleep in them or hike in them, but not both. They need time to air out.

[blackbishop351]

I can't personally endorse anything that purposefully keeps your feet wet. If you're constantly losing heat to evaporation, fine - keep the moisture in. But what happens when you take the vapor barrier socks off? You'd better have a way to dry your feet out QUICK. I don't know about anybody else, but my feet are like a thermostat - if they get cold, I'm done for.

I wear nylon liners and two pairs of smartwool in the winter. My feet stay dry, and there's enough insulation between my skin and the layer where the evaporation takes place that I don't lose heat that way.

This is all JMO, of course. My feet sweat a LOT - they'll end up looking like prunes after a couple of hours on the trail if I'm not careful. Whatever works for you, though.

[The Breeze]

can you say blisters :(

[Just Jeff]

The liners help with the blisters, and your feet don't get drenched b/c they stop sweating once they generate enough moisture inside the VB. They're just moist. And since there's not a whole bunch of moisture, the theory is that they "flash" dry - most of the moisture evaporates very quickly as you take off the VB to get dressed (it's supposed to be sub-freezing and very dry outside, remember). I've only taken off the VB in above freezing conditions with some humidity so I've never experienced the flash drying.

But yeah - I think hiking in VB socks day after day would get old. But there are probably only a handful of days on a normal AT NOBO where they're needed, anyway. They sure helped keep my feet warm at night, though.

[Coffee]

Interesting at you would think of them more as sleeping gear. I was thinking more as hiking gear.

I am concerned that all I have to keep my feet warm is my wool socks. I can wear the second pair if needed, but it is a tight fit in my trail runners. Maybe I am just being overly concerned with keeping my feet warm. I might only wear them 5 or so times in my first month. But that might be worth it to me.

I'm not worried about blisters. I did 80 trail miles this fall and did not get any blisters. In my trail runners I have hiked most of the day with wet feet and not had any problems. I am really careful about drying and airing them out at night. I also am on my feet walking around at work for 7 or so hours at a time, so my feet are already pretty tough.

[Coffee]

I had most of this response typed and all the sudden it went to "This Page Cannot Be Displayed" so I lost it all!! GRRRR.... And of course it's never as good the second time. Anyway, here are some thoughts.

First, vapor barriers aren't vapor barriers if they're breathable...b/c then they're not a barrier to your vapor. You WANT your feet to sweat, b/c the VB traps in the moisture until your feet saturate and eventually stop producing sweat...so you'll stop losing heat from evaporation. If it's breathable, you'll be wet and clammy (like all VBs) but you'll still be losing evaporative heat so it won't work as well.

I've used breathable raingear as a pseudo-VB while sleeping and it helps, but I think using DWR on feet while being active would cause it to soak through. Maybe a little bit of benefit there, but still not really a VB.

Remember, socks are stretchy and sil is not, so using a normal sock for a VB pattern might not work so well, especially when putting them on and taking them off. Bill Fornshell posted a pattern for his VB socks on BPL a while ago. Or you could get these GoLite VB Socks (http://cgi.ebay.com/Golite-Go-lite-Vapor-Barrier-Socks-2-Pack-New-Free-Ship_W0QQitemZ130049853125QQihZ003QQcategoryZ2020Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem) from eBay for $13+s/h. They have a 50% chance of delaminating so you could get two and probably end up with one good pair (still a deal since according to them they retail for $65), or you could get a pair and cut them apart for the pattern. Or just look at the pics and figure out your own.

Many people complain about GoreTex boots making their feet sweat. That's b/c GoreTex doesn't really pass much moisture even under optimum conditions (cold and dry outside), so in more humid conditions it's almost a VB. But it's also b/c they're wearing insulation next to their skin (big socks), so their moisture soaks the insulation and it stays wet and clammy. For VB socks, wear just a thin liner sock, then your VB, then your thick insulating socks. That way the liner sock keeps your feet comfortable and keeps your insulation dry.

One more thing - your feet will always be clammy in a VB, so you should manage the time you wear them so you don't get trench foot. Either sleep in them or hike in them, but not both. They need time to air out.


Good point on sil vs DWR. I guess I was thinking of stopping my feet from sweating, when that is actually what you want.

I already of some sil that I can use, so money wise I am not out anything if they don't work. I think i can come up with a good pattern by looking at those golite ones.

If it would actually get cold here I would have more time to test these out. It looks like this may be one of those things I'll take and not need. If anything else it can be something I can ship back. Looking at my gear list I am a little short on this.:rolleyes:

[The Breeze]

I think it is coming next week bam nexted wish :rolleyes: :cool:

[Just Jeff]

I actually hiked and slept in mine at Winnemucca. I aired my feet out during the day while I lounged in the hammock...it worked ok for the short trip, but I wouldn't do that day after day. I guess if you used them sparingly it wouldn't make much difference.

And you can always use them as rain mitts if you seamseal them.

[Certain]

Hey Jeff....for the VB socks to work at night, did your feet already have to be warm? Usually, when I change into my dry camp clothes, my feet get ice cold really fast, so if I put my wool sleeping socks on and a plastic bag over my feet (making sure they're sealed off) will my feet get warm on their own or would I need to do some jumping jacks to produce some body heat?

[Just Jeff]

Hrm...good question. I can't really say b/c I just crawled under my quilt, too. The warmth could have come from the quilt or the VB (I used plastic bags this time)...probably a bit from both.

But if you do it, the bags need to go UNDER your insulation or your insulation will get wet. Put only a thin liner sock next to your feet - I use really thin dress socks. Then the VB goes on next. Then the insulation goes over the top of it all.

Some VBs (like Stephenson's) have a liner built it so you don't need a separate liner underneath. The liner is just for comfort...the VB will still work w/o it. Btw - Stephenson's has a good article (http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm) on vapor barriers.

[Certain]

Oh I read a bunch of stuff on their site. Pretty interesting, and something that I think I'll end up looking into more in the future seeing my cold tendencies.

So how did you seal your plastic bag off. Was it by putting another sock over it on the outside or did you tie something up at the top?

[Just Jeff]

The insulating sock on the outside held it in place for sleeping. Since I was using plastic bags, the bags would slide down between the liner and insulation while I was hiking, but it worked fine for a while...just had to adjust it now and then.

[Coffee]

Ok now I have a question.

Would they still work if I had them overtop of my hiking socks with no insulation overtop of them? I am thinking they should work, but with my hiking socks getting wet. Which I am fine with. I carry 2 pairs for hiking and 1 for sleeping, so I have extra to wear when I take the VB socks off. My hiking socks are usually wet at the end of the day anyways from either sweat or water. I am only really going to wear these when it gets really cold or wet while I am hiking.

On a side sewing point. This is a little harder than what I thought, but still doable. This is my first clothing project and my first elastic project.

[The Breeze]

I see curtains in your future hehehehhe:eek: :rolleyes:

[Just Jeff]

Haha - I have camo fabric to make my son's curtains.

I think they'd work with your hiking socks on the inside, but that makes more volume so your feet will have to sweat more to get to the proper moisture level...meaning they'll stay cold longer before the VB effect starts working. Soggy hiking socks seem grosser than soggy liner socks and would take longer to dry. I guess since you're already carrying them, you can save the ounce or so that liner socks weigh, though.

[Coffee]

Now I understand what you are getting at. I am a little slow sometimes.

Basically you want sweat. it is that sweat, be it visual or not, is what is actually keeping you warm.

Maybe I should take another look at the warmlite ones.

[Coffee]

I see curtains in your future hehehehhe:eek: :rolleyes:

There's no telling what's in my future.:rolleyes:

[Coffee]

Not to go against my DIY tendencies, I emailed warmlite to see how much their VB socks weigh. If they come in at an oz or 2 for a pair of size 12's I am going to go that route.

Right now I am only making gear that I think I can make better for me, lighter weight, or cheaper. This may be one of the things that I can't do any of those.

[Just Jeff]

I agree, for hiking in at least. For sleeping, plastic bags work fine. For hiking, the plastic bags kept slipping down so I think socks would work best. I think it would take several pairs to get the fit and such down, and a lot of testing to make sure you wouldn't get blisters at the seams and such. Seems like socks are a worthy purchase, IMO.

So what you said earlier...it's almost correct. You want to sweat, but the sweat isn't really what keeps you warm. Look at it this way - your skin is always perspiring even if you can't feel it, b/c your skin needs a certain level of moisture. Without a VB, your body creates that level of moisture, then it evaporates and your body must create more, which then evaporates, so you create more, and on and on. And every time it evaporates, it takes some heat with it. (That's how sweat cools you - it isn't just wetting your skin, but it takes heat with it as it evaporates because phase change takes energy.)

So you put on a VB. Your body creates the level of moisture your skin needs, but it can't evaporate. Since it can't evaporate, you stop losing the heat that you normally lose through evaporation. If you manage your heat production (insulation, exertion, etc) to match your heat loss (to the cold air/water) then your body will stop sweating and remain at the proper level of moisture. You'll get a little clammy and it'll dry quickly when you take off the VB. In practice, you have to pay close attention to avoid overheating, sweating too much, etc. This is more of an issue for shirts and pants than it is for socks, I think.

But the big thing is that the sweat doesn't make you warm, but the VB stops the evaporative heat loss that normally takes place...and sweat is a necessary part of the process.

So that's the theory of it, anyway. I don't have a lot of experience with it. I like VB on my feet for the cold, and I was thinking about making a VB vest for sleeping. VBs also reduce the amount of moisture I put into my quilt at night, but I haven't really decided if it's worth it for the short trips I do, though. Although a silnylon vest can't weigh very much and it could double as summer raingear if I don't need sleeves.

Let me know what Warmlite says about their socks.

[Coffee]

Thanks for the clarification.

I am intreged by VB. Maybe after my hike I'll read more and look into the other colthing options. I read a review on mittens of a website when I was searching on VB. They had a VB in them. The tester sleep out on his porch with temps well below 0. He said his hands still felt warm.

For anything other than socks or possibly golves, I think they would be overkill with my winter setup. I know that your rain gear is supposed to breath. But don't they act as a VB when you are wearing them?

[Just Jeff]

Sort of. Anything that restricts evaporation can act like a vapor barrier. Raingear doesn't breathe as well as normal clothing, so it reduces the rate of evaporation...which reduces the amount of heat you lose to evaporation, so you feel warmer.

One night when I slept in my raingear, I wore a polypro base layer, then a fleece jacket, and a rain jacket on the outside. When I woke up, my fleece was wet from sweat. The next night, I wore the polypro, then the raingear, then the fleece. I was warmer and my fleece was dry in the morning.

Just a guess here - I bet breathable fabrics work better as a VB in above freezing temps than they do in below freezing temps. They pass moisture best when it's dry outside and moist inside, and hardly pass any moisture when it's humid outside. But below freezing, the moisture freezes and falls out of the air...making it very dry outside, which increases the effectiveness of the breathable fabric, which reduces its effectiveness as a VB.

But now that I have a silnylon Packa I don't have to worry about it!

It's late. I'm rambling. Can't sleep.

[Coffee]

The sox will weigh 3 oz.........It should take apprx 3-4 days via post
office...........cost is:
socks $8
postage 1.50



Here is the response I got from warmlite. For $9.50 I am going to give it a try and see. The weight was for my size 12 feet. These socks contain the VB outer shell and an inner liner layer if I remember right. So they do away with the need for liner socks. I'm all about keeping the total number of items in the pack to a minimium

[Coffee]

I recieved the VB socks in the mail yesterday. They ended up costing about $12 all said and done. A little more than originally quoted, but no big deal. They weigh in at 3.3 oz for the pair.

I put them on without any socks. The material they used is really nice. I think that wearing them with no socks underneath will not be a problem. My feet started to warm up pretty quickly after putting them on.

I was a little disappointed in the quality of the sewing on them. There are a few spots where the seams did not turn out very good. Structurely they are fine. I can see where they messed up and there is extra thread sticking out. They also did not fully trim the excess thread off of the ends of the seams. After looking at their design, I think I could make another set if I need one out of sil fairly easily.

I am going to take these on my thru for the colder sections. I think they will keep my feet warm when I need them to. Pending a real world test I give these a 4 out of 5. The only negative being their sewing. I was really surprised at this too with all of the good things I heard about them on WB.

[slowhike]

I recieved the VB socks in the mail yesterday. They ended up costing about $12 all said and done. A little more than originally quoted, but no big deal. They weigh in at 3.3 oz for the pair.

I put them on without any socks. The material they used is really nice. I think that wearing them with no socks underneath will not be a problem. My feet started to warm up pretty quickly after putting them on.

I was a little disappointed in the quality of the sewing on them. There are a few spots where the seams did not turn out very good. Structurely they are fine. I can see where they messed up and there is extra thread sticking out. They also did not fully trim the excess thread off of the ends of the seams. After looking at their design, I think I could make another set if I need one out of sil fairly easily.

I am going to take these on my thru for the colder sections. I think they will keep my feet warm when I need them to. Pending a real world test I give these a 4 out of 5. The only negative being their sewing. I was really surprised at this too with all of the good things I heard about them on WB.

now see what happens when you learn to sew<G>.

[BillyBob58]

It's already here in North MS, and working it's way east. 14* Sunday night/Monday AM, a little warmer last night, forecast for 17* tonight, Tue the 30th. Will attempt another SuperShelter test tonight.