SuperShelter?

[Chris.Biomed]

Hi Everyone!

Thinking of uppgrading my HH UL with the SS, yet I'm not sure about it. It seems that alot of people are having difficulties with the underpad, it rips, doesn't stay in place and above all it doesn't provide the added warmth of which it claims to give. This is what I've read from BGT reviews, allthough they where written when there was both a torso pad and a kidney pad, which has let me believe that the whole system has changed since then.

What are your experiances whith this system, and would you recommend it for use at temperatures around 30 degrees? Or should I just abandon the idea and get the lime green JRB nest?:rolleyes:

[FanaticFringer]

Hi Everyone!

Thinking of uppgrading my HH UL with the SS, yet I'm not sure about it. It seems that alot of people are having difficulties with the underpad, it rips, doesn't stay in place and above all it doesn't provide the added warmth of which it claims to give. This is what I've read from BGT reviews, allthough they where written when there was both a torso pad and a kidney pad, which has let me believe that the whole system has changed since then.

What are your experiances whith this system, and would you recommend it for use at temperatures around 30 degrees? Or should I just abandon the idea and get the lime green JRB nest?:rolleyes:

I'd go with the Nest myself. BillyBob58 should be responding shortly as he has a lot of experience with the supershelter.

[kwpapke]

Hi Everyone!

Thinking of uppgrading my HH UL with the SS, yet I'm not sure about it. It seems that alot of people are having difficulties with the underpad, it rips, doesn't stay in place and above all it doesn't provide the added warmth of which it claims to give. This is what I've read from BGT reviews, allthough they where written when there was both a torso pad and a kidney pad, which has let me believe that the whole system has changed since then.

What are your experiances whith this system, and would you recommend it for use at temperatures around 30 degrees? Or should I just abandon the idea and get the lime green JRB nest?:rolleyes:
See my recent trip report where I used the SS down to 23 degrees in the field:

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4648

I haven't had any problems with rips in my SS, but I do have a puncture in the OCF pad caused by a tree branch (my own fault). A small hole doesn't seem to impact the insulation characteristics.

My experience so far with the SS is that they MUST be used with a space blanket at temperatures below 40F, which does increase the hassle factor a bit. I have had no problems with the underpad moving around, and frankly with the way it is attached to the hammock I'm a little puzzled how that could happen.

I haven't tried the underquilts yet, the only other alternative I can comment on is an inflatable pad which I tried a few times before I bought my SS. I toss and turn a lot when I sleep, and I didn't like the nuisance of a pad inside the hammock - every time I rolled over it moved on me.

Your profile doesn't say where you're from. I think if I had to sum up what I've taken away so far from my own experience and reading this forum is that the down underquilts seem optimal for dry conditions/climates or when used with a larger tarp, but the SS might have an edge if you hike a lot where rain and moisture is more of an issue, you use the stock diamond HH tarp, and cost is a consideration for you.

The SS does make getting in/out of your HH a bit more challenging, but so do most of the other alternatives.

Hope this helps,

--Kurt

[FanaticFringer]

Might also consider the JRB No Sniveler. I have both the Nest and No Sniveler and like the NS better due to the head hole in the middle. Although both work well worn as insulation. It is easier IMO as well as others to just push the Nest/No Sniveler aside when entering/exiting a Hennessy hammock.

[Chris.Biomed]

Your profile doesn't say where you're from. I think if I had to sum up what I've taken away so far from my own experience and reading this forum is that the down underquilts seem optimal for dry conditions/climates or when used with a larger tarp, but the SS might have an edge if you hike a lot where rain and moisture is more of an issue, you use the stock diamond HH tarp, and cost is a consideration for you.


I live in Sweden so temperatures do drop quite a bit.

[BillyBob58]

I'd go with the Nest myself. BillyBob58 should be responding shortly as he has a lot of experience with the supershelter.

No time now, but maybe later today.

[BillyBob58]

Hi Everyone!

Thinking of uppgrading my HH UL with the SS, yet I'm not sure about it. It seems that alot of people are having difficulties with the underpad, it rips, doesn't stay in place and above all it doesn't provide the added warmth of which it claims to give. This is what I've read from BGT reviews, allthough they where written when there was both a torso pad and a kidney pad, which has let me believe that the whole system has changed since then.

What are your experiances whith this system, and would you recommend it for use at temperatures around 30 degrees? Or should I just abandon the idea and get the lime green JRB nest?:rolleyes:

If you do a search here you will find a ton of pros and cons on the old SS. It has always kept me warm enough once I learned to use it. I have certainly done fine at about 30* or even below, although I ALWAYS use the Space blanket and often add ( if it is going to be well below freezing ) either the HH kidney/torso pads, and/or clothing, and or a Garlington insulator, for temps into the high teens. In my experience, it more or less does what HH says it will.

I have poked two diferent large whole in the pad. No big deal, add a bit of seam sealer and sew or tape together, goood as new. My pad always stays in place, no problem.

[Javaman]

Hi Chris,

I have gone the whole way with HH, using an Exlorer Ultralight with Super Shelter and underpad. I have also incorporated an inexpensive emergency blanket into the mix, and have had 2Q perform his bug net zipper mod to make the HH a top loader. I use the large HH silnylon hex fly, and have modified the tieouts with shock cord per a couple of threads here to keep tension on the fly.

I have successfully slept in this set up over a dozen times, and have not had any cold issues down to about 36* F EXCEPT when I used an inexpensive sleeping bag. I now use a Sierra Designs 800 fill down bag rated to 15*F and sleep comfortably over a wide range of temperatures from the mid 30's to the mid to high 60's.

The underpad can be a bit bulky, but I have taken to rolling it up tight in an aftermarket silnylon bag for protection and strapping on the outside of my pack for transport. This has proven to not be a problem. It is remarkably resiliant. Once deployed between my hammock and SS it stays in place and provides more than adequate coverage. The current HH system does not incorporate additional pads unless you make or use some of your own design or making ( like a Garlington Insulator or Sgt. Rock pocket pad").

It is quite difficult to enter and exit the HH from the bottom entry with my setup fully in place. The same may be said for an underquilt but I have no experience with those. As I mentioned, I had 2Questions modify my HH to include a full zipper down the left side and a 1/2 zipper down the right side. This gives me full access to the hammock as a top loader and eliminates any bottom access issues. The hammock is quit simple to use with this modification.

I have experienced some condensation after using the emergency blanket, but this has proven to be minor and limited to droplets on the emergency blanket itself. I have never had any condensation inside the hammock or on my sleeping bag.

Speaking from my own experience, this setup works well across a wide range of temperatures and is quite fun to sleep in. I do make a point of sleeping in some kind of polypropylene long underwear (tops and bottoms), and I'm sure this helps somewhat. I've only had to wear a hat a couple of times.

Good luck and please feel free to revert with any specific question.

Javaman

QUOTE=Chris.Biomed;65695]Hi Everyone!

Thinking of uppgrading my HH UL with the SS, yet I'm not sure about it. It seems that alot of people are having difficulties with the underpad, it rips, doesn't stay in place and above all it doesn't provide the added warmth of which it claims to give. This is what I've read from BGT reviews, allthough they where written when there was both a torso pad and a kidney pad, which has let me believe that the whole system has changed since then.

What are your experiances whith this system, and would you recommend it for use at temperatures around 30 degrees? Or should I just abandon the idea and get the lime green JRB nest?:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

[rpettit]

I use the SS and have found it to have a limited temperature range without adding additional bulky OCF insulation. I haven't use a space blanket with it though. My main issue is that when you spread out in the hammock your arms, knees, shoulders come off of the insulatated area onto cold spots.

[BillyBob58]

I use the SS and have found it to have a limited temperature range without adding additional bulky OCF insulation. I haven't use a space blanket with it though. My main issue is that when you spread out in the hammock your arms, knees, shoulders come off of the insulatated area onto cold spots.

For some reason, people seem really resistant to using the space blanket as per the directions of HH. But it is an integral part of the system as designed, and contributes far more warmth compared to any minor negatives, IMO and in my experience. Probably a Heatsheet would work even better than the Walmart $2/2oz blanket. It just ain't going to work as advertised without that SB, IMO.

I have access to both a PeaPod ( no experience with regular UQs) as well as what I consider the most comfortable/convenient pad approach: My Claytor No Net ( which in addition also works best with my PeaPod). I think these other two approaches both have strong reasons to use them, but I still have not 100% made up my mind to dump my HHUL Exp with SS for my next long hike into deep wilderness this fall. And that is because I have two trips worth of success and comfort with that approach, it does not detract from bottom comfort or side shoulder room at all, and I think it would handle any water related mishaps well, though not as well as a ccf pad in the Claytor. If it was going to be super cold I would go with the pod and/or pads, but with extreme lows no lower than 15* and probably usually 25 - 35*F, any of these systems are OK for me. Though it will require more experience to be comfy in the SS below 30* for sure. ( avoid the deadly GAP!) With the PeaPod and a space blanket, I was ok at 10*F. But of course it is very expensive and you have to obsess with keeping it dry, a constant worry if you are days from the nearest trailhead. Not that it can't be done, however, stuff happens. I guess also, it depends on where you are going, how wet it will be, and how difficult is a bailout if everything goes wrong. ( leaking tarps/stuff sacks etc)



Javaman:The current HH system does not incorporate additional pads unless you make or use some of your own design or making ( like a Garlington Insulator or Sgt. Rock pocket pad").

There are the torso/kidney pads, a great help for 3 to 5 ozs. ( are these still available?) And of course, just like with a CCF pad, there is no reason why you couldn't do two full length HH pads, plus clothing and/or the kidney/torso pads. But I guess that would be pretty bulky.

Garlington insulator is cheap, low weight, big warmth boost, and almost no bulk.

Though I love my PeaPod more than the rest, and a pad in my Claytor is super simple, effective, ultralight and dirt cheap, there is still something appealing to me about the SS under some conditions, at least to me.

[kwpapke]

The underpad can be a bit bulky, but I have taken to rolling it up tight in an aftermarket silnylon bag for protection and strapping on the outside of my pack for transport. This has proven to not be a problem. It is remarkably resiliant.
Exactly, Javaman. I use a Sea-to-summit 8L bag and it fits the UC perfectly, fits the pad straps on my pack, and is bombproof and completely watertight.

We've both arrived at the same place.

--Kurt

[kwpapke]

what I consider the most comfortable/convenient pad approach: My Claytor No Net ( which in addition also works best with my PeaPod). ...snip... think it would handle any water related mishaps well, though not as well as a ccf pad in the Claytor.
Why the Claytor No Net, instead of a Speer? The Claytor site isn't real clear on the design of the No Net. Is it because of the double bottom for a pad, so you can use both pad and peapod at very low temps?

I've been scratching my head a bit about what to do for winter camping, as my HH bugnet is useless in the snow and the bottom entry becomes more pain than its worth in that scenario. The price of the No Net is clearly attractive - at $40 with shipping its much cheaper than a Speer kit w/o tarp! Does it come with webbing straps?

--Kurt

[BillyBob58]

Why the Claytor No Net, instead of a Speer? The Claytor site isn't real clear on the design of the No Net. Is it because of the double bottom for a pad, so you can use both pad and peapod at very low temps?

--Kurt

It is primarily because, just as Neo always tried to tell us, it is so darn easy to use a pad with the Claytor double bottom hammock, with or without the PeaPod or an UQ. The pad just simply stays where you put it, and I am basically not even aware that the pad is under my back except for the warmth. But I can't say for sure that I wouldn't notice it after 8 hours or more. The most I have laid on a pad is about 2 or 3 hours. I am aware of the pad more at the feet because of the hammocks rise in the center tends to interfere with the pad, more or less depending on a diagonal vs midline lay. But it is still quite workable. Bottom line, a pad works great with the Claytor, and I'm sure it would also work great with the JRB.


I've been scratching my head a bit about what to do for winter camping, as my HH bugnet is useless in the snow and the bottom entry becomes more pain than its worth in that scenario. The price of the No Net is clearly attractive - at $40 with shipping its much cheaper than a Speer kit w/o tarp! Does it come with webbing straps?

It comes with webbing, but most people here don't like them. But most folks here change their webbing anyway on other brands. Right now I am using my stock webbing on one end and my cinch buckle on the other. You will have to put a knot in the webbing and/or add some drip lines to keep water from wicking into your hammock.

Most of us don't want to bother with mos. nets in winter, but the HH webbing can definitely add a few degrees warmth and wind resistance on top. Plus, at least one guy has posted that he is very pleased with the "top cover?" part of the SS ( I don't have this), saying that it REALLY increases warmth, especially when it is windy.

[Javaman]

Great minds think alike!!

Check out 2 Questions gallery for photos of his bug net zipper mod and homemade pad setup. The bugnet mod makes the HH a toploader and eliminates issues around entering through the bottom with SS, underpad and emergency blanket in place. Worth the $50 all day long.
Exactly, Javaman. I use a Sea-to-summit 8L bag and it fits the UC perfectly, fits the pad straps on my pack, and is bombproof and completely watertight.

We've both arrived at the same place.

--Kurt

[FreeTheWeasel]

I tried the supershelter quite a bit and had pretty good success with it down to about mid 40's. Below that, I started to have troubles and BillyBob was really generous in trying to help me debug my setup.

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2037

I have gone the underquilt route and I have had more luck getting down to colder temperatures, but I've still managed to get cold spots here and there.

At the moment, I prefer quilts but I've discovered that my technique is more of a limit than the equipment. I never tried the space blanket even though I should have. The underquilt is more expensive but it appears to be more forgiving for poor technique.

I did rip my underpad right down a seam. When I called Hennessy to ask about what had happened and how I could avoid it in the future (did I pull the suspension too tight?), Anne offered to send me a replacement free of charge. I tried to decline telling here that I was pretty sure that it was my fault and not a flaw in the workmanship and she sent it anyway. You can't beat that kind of customer service and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the supershelter for that reason alone.

If you are not going to be in weather below 45 much, the supershelter is clearly a viable option. Since you are going to be in colder weather as I was in Minnesota, it gets to be a bit trickier. I would advise the underquilt, preferably the big one. Unless you can make your own, the JRB quilts are very very nice.

FreeTheWeasel

[BillyBob58]

I tried the supershelter quite a bit and had pretty good success with it down to about mid 40's. Below that, I started to have troubles and BillyBob was really generous in trying to help me debug my setup.

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2037

I have gone the underquilt route and I have had more luck getting down to colder temperatures, but I've still managed to get cold spots here and there.

At the moment, I prefer quilts but I've discovered that my technique is more of a limit than the equipment. I never tried the space blanket even though I should have.........................................

FreeTheWeasel

Yep, IMO and the designers, that SB is a key to success below the 40s, though it appears that most people are really resistant to trying it. And even above 40, the one time I tried it without the SB, at a low in the high 40s or maybe very low 50s, was the one time- even though I was plenty warm- I had a significant problem with condensation. Maybe it was because I was in the super humid and foggy Hoh Rain Forest in the Olympic Mountains of WA. Regardless, I put the SB back on and had no more trouble with condensation. Seems a bit counterintuitive, doesn't it? It does to me, a least!

[Youngblood]

Seems a bit counterintuitive, doesn't it? It does to me, a least!

It does seem counterintuitive... unless you have an understanding of what happens with the silnylon as the outside cover. With that silnylon, the insulation 'system' isn't breathable.

Since it isn't a breathable insulation 'system' with the silnylon, you should pick where it stops vapor so you can handle insensible perspiration issues without having excessive moisture buildup within your insulation 'system'. The best place for the vapor barrier is between the open cell foam and the bottom of the hammock. A space blanket or a sheet of plastic makes a good vapor barrier for that application.

[winger]

Have the SS and gave up on it, not very effective and caused condensation. Go with an underquilt. I use the JRB nest and the JRB weather shield.

[BillyBob58]

Have the SS and gave up on it, not very effective and caused condensation. Go with an underquilt. I use the JRB nest and the JRB weather shield.

Winger, just curious, did you use the space blanket?

[koaloha05]

Regarding the pad slipping. It seems to stay in position real well. Between the tie down and the sticky nature of the pad it doesn't move much if at all. My personal cold tolerance with a 40F bag using the UC/UP but no SB is ~45F. Definitely will pack a SB for warm trips just in case temps drop a little cooler than expected.

HH notes that ccf will not work with the SS Undercover. Why not? If part of a space blanket (SB) function in the system is a vapor barrier would not a ccf pad over the Underpad or a ccf alone do the same? Has anyone compared the difference between a pure vapor barrier like a sheet of plastic vs. the SB? In the unfortunate situation of having to go to ground figured a lightweight thin ccf + the UP + SB as a ground cloth would provide a bit of "comfort". But if a ccf is useless in the SS system I would probable leave the ccf home & live with the discomfort of a UP+SB as my ground pad.

I have a JRB Nest/WeatherShield combo for cooler nights. With the suspension system that the Jacks have designed getting into a HH is simple. Just slide the quilt/shield to the side, step into your hammock as normal, the whole thing snaps back into postion.

[BillyBob58]

..........My personal cold tolerance with a 40F bag using the UC/UP but no SB is ~45F. Definitely will pack a SB for warm trips just in case temps drop a little cooler than expected.

HH notes that ccf will not work with the SS Undercover. Why not? If part of a space blanket (SB) function in the system is a vapor barrier would not a ccf pad over the Underpad or a ccf alone do the same? Has anyone compared the difference between a pure vapor barrier like a sheet of plastic vs. the SB? In the unfortunate situation of having to go to ground figured a lightweight thin ccf + the UP + SB as a ground cloth would provide a bit of "comfort". But if a ccf is useless in the SS system I would probable leave the ccf home & live with the discomfort of a UP+SB as my ground pad...........

I imagine the reason most CCF pads will not work is that they are not flexible enough to form around your body like the pre shaped HH OCF does. In addition, the weight of the pads will tend to pull either the OCF ( if placed on top of the OCF pad) or the UC ( if placed in it) away from your body, causing the deadly gap. The first night I ever tried it ( 22*F) I slipped my thermarest into the UC for a little insurance. That no doubt contributed to the total disaster that was that night.

But TeeDee used to add the Gossamer Gear pads ( super flexible, apparently), in a "T" formation, on top of his OCF pad with great success.

However, any CCF pad inside your HH( preferably with an SPE), rather than on top of the OCF pad or in the UC, used along with your SS, will give you some serious cold weather abilities.

[koaloha05]

BillyBob58, thanks for passing on your experience regarding a ccf or Thermarest type of pad and the SS. I have a relatively large sheet of 1/4 or 3/8" ccf. Will cut it a bit larger than the OCF underpad and see if it is flexible enough and light enough not to create a gap when placed either below or above the OCF. The remaining ccf I will convert into a torso pad and try what TeeDee did with the Gossamer. Worse case it becomes along with the SB & OCF underpad is my grounded pad.

[BillyBob58]

BillyBob58, thanks for passing on your experience regarding a ccf or Thermarest type of pad and the SS. I have a relatively large sheet of 1/4 or 3/8" ccf. Will cut it a bit larger than the OCF underpad and see if it is flexible enough and light enough not to create a gap when placed either below or above the OCF. The remaining ccf I will convert into a torso pad and try what TeeDee did with the Gossamer. Worse case it becomes along with the SB & OCF underpad is my grounded pad.

Yep, or for use inside the hammock- preferably with an SPE- in case lows are way below what you had been expecting. Lot's of folks don't like pads inside a hammock, at least without a double bottom. Buut it is probably a lot better than being cold during those surprise cold snaps.

[hikingjer]

When people say "emergency space blanket" in regards to the HH Super Shelter are they referring to the thin, foily kind like this?

http://www.campmor.com/images/acc/81280.jpg

Or the heavier, sturdier kind like this?

http://www.campmor.com/images/8900/81284.jpg

[slowhike]

Back Packing Light.com (BPL.com) has a version of the lighter one that is made w/ new & improved material, & is stronger & quieter.

[hikingjer]

It appears one needs a one year "premium" membership with www.backpackinglight.com (not BPL.com) to buy that space blanket. Screw that! What a scam. Any other suggestions?

[slowhike]

It appears one needs a one year "premium" membership with www.backpackinglight.com (not BPL.com) to buy that space blanket. Screw that! What a scam. Any other suggestions?

Looks to me like they have a "Member's Price" & a "Non-Member's Price", & there's only .20 cents difference.
If you're seeing something different, please let me know. ...Tim

[kwpapke]

It appears one needs a one year "premium" membership with www.backpackinglight.com (not BPL.com) to buy that space blanket. Screw that! What a scam. Any other suggestions?
REI has the same thing:
http://www.rei.com/product/750939
for $3.95. I've been using one of these all summer long with my HH SS, they are great.
--Kurt

[slowhike]

REI has the same thing:
http://www.rei.com/product/750939
for $3.95. I've been using one of these all summer long with my HH SS, they are great.
--Kurt

Yep, I believe that's the same one (one person size) & with in a few pennys of the same price, but if there is an REI close by & they have them in stock, you could save the shipping.

[hikingjer]

Thanks for the answers! $3.95 is cheap and REI stores are around.

As for Backpacking Light, maybe I have to poke around more. It appeared they wouldn't let anyone buy from them unless they were a premium member (?).

[BillyBob58]

REI has the same thing:
http://www.rei.com/product/750939
for $3.95. I've been using one of these all summer long with my HH SS, they are great.
--Kurt

So, Kw, you have been using this version of the space blanket with the SS in the summer? Then, apparently, no sweat/condensation problems to speak of even at warm temps?

[BillyBob58]

Thanks for the answers! $3.95 is cheap and REI stores are around.

As for Backpacking Light, maybe I have to poke around more. It appeared they wouldn't let anyone buy from them unless they were a premium member (?).

I am a premium member, but I thought any body could buy from them. You just don't get the small( but sometimes larger) discount.

[kwpapke]

So, Kw, you have been using this version of the space blanket with the SS in the summer? Then, apparently, no sweat/condensation problems to speak of even at warm temps?
Yes, I used that config all July in Oregon with no problems with condensation. It wasn't particularly warm at night tho, cuz I was at higher altitudes.

On really warm nights I just leave off the underpad and SB, and go just with the undercover. I pack the OCF underpad separately in a drysack with the SB rolled up in it, so leaving it off a night or two just means less setup/teardown.

--Kurt

[toddkmiller]

I found that the SS system with the laminated space blanket ( I always carry mine with me as small tarp) worked very well. It got it's best test this past winter when I was out in -25 degrees C (-13 F) with a slight breeze. It was REALLY cold. I had an Armed Forces issue double down filled sleeping bag. The SS I find is very compact and light compared to a Peapod or CCF pad but that is just my opinion.

My fellow scout leader used the same setup and he was equally toasty.

[Just Jeff]

You went to -13F using ONLY a Hennessy Supershelter and a space blanket for bottom insulation?

[Cannibal]

Impressive!

[koaloha05]

2nd Cannibal's "Impressive". I think * has noted in other threads the added effectiveness of a sb. Now that night time temps are starting to drop it's time to test out the SS with a space blanket/ocf combo. So far, with ocf only for me it's a +60F comfort level. I added a 3/16" ccf cut to same size +2" as the ocf underpad between the ocf and hammock. Ok down to that low 50's. Notice something about using only the ocf only. Conditions ranged from ~50F (cold bottom night sleeping) to ~60F. Condensation visible on the ocf & undercover next morning. I will happy if comfort level drops down to low +20F with just adding a $4 , 3oz space blanket + a Mt.Washington as a quilt in place of a cold weather sleeping bag (which I don't own).

*Correction BillyBob58

[slowhike]

. I think SlowHike has noted in other threads the added effectiveness of a sb.

I've not added much on the space blanket conversations except a link to a newer version of the SB made w/ stronger, quieter materials.
I'm an underquilt user myself<G>.

A while back I had just noted that "most" people's experience w/ using a SB was that it didn't do as much as they had hoped, but BillyBob & some others here have found them helpful in extending the comfort range.
But I'm really wondering what kind of clothing (snow suit?), pads, etc, was used to keep a person warm at -13°f.
I sure wouldn't want to send someone out in those conditions w/o everything they needed to be safe. That would be dangerous & irresponsible.

[daretowin]

I am a newbie and will be starting out with a stock HH Exped that was given to me.

In reading many threads, I am truly confused as to the best approach for both weight ans staying warm.

I am a Scoutmaster and camp 11 out of 12 months from Sept through July. That said, I need to be able to adjust for a wide range of temps and weather conditions. For teh past years, I have slept on a cot insode a tent using a Thermarest pad and either a +40 bag or a -20 bag. Always comfortable, regardless of the weather.

As a troop, we are moving away from car camping and into backpacking this year so weight will be an issue. As I am hoping to start a trend in the troop by using a hammock, I would also like to start off as best equipped as possible.

I have 2 questions:

1. What are your thoughts/suggestions re' SS or underquilt or something else???
2. Once properly set-up, how do you sleep? By that I am looking for do you sleep inside a bag, directly in the hammock with specific clothes on and a quilt/open bag on top etc. If you could address temperature ranges, that would be great.

Thanks!

[BillyBob58]

I found that the SS system with the laminated space blanket ( I always carry mine with me as small tarp) worked very well. It got it's best test this past winter when I was out in -25 degrees C (-13 F) with a slight breeze. It was REALLY cold. I had an Armed Forces issue double down filled sleeping bag. The SS I find is very compact and light compared to a Peapod or CCF pad but that is just my opinion.

My fellow scout leader used the same setup and he was equally toasty.

Todd, these are impressive results. I have long been as advocate of the SS, and I have used it to the teens. But, I have always had to use various techniques to get it much below the very high 20s to low 30s, which is where I have done just fine with just the basic system of HH pad and SB, and inside of a synthetic bag. Much below that, I have had to add the kidney/torso pads( big boost for just a few ounces), lightweight puffy clothing either on top of the pad or in the undercover, or a Garlington insulator- another big boost for very little weight and a couple of bucks. And of course, the last resort, simply adding a Ridgerest pad or equiv(which I usually have with me anyway in case I have to go to ground) inside the hammock will take it way on down there. The SS is great and can be made to perform really low, but I have found it much easier to use the PeaPod when it is below 20F.

Now, there was a gal on BGT that took it to zero with the addition of the kidney/torso pads and did OK, which I though was amazing. But your -13F is surely a world record. Can you give any more details about bottom insulation? Was this nothing more beneath you than the one HH OCF pad and a space blanket? (Even HH does not claim anything like that for his basic system) Or, did you use some of the above techniques to boost the rating?

If just the basic system, another useful thing to know would be: what do you need normally in a hammock, without the SS? You might be another Neo, who could do 8*F with just a 3/8 pad doubled over. Are you maybe an extremely warm sleeper?

Thanks for any extra details you can provide.
Bill

[BillyBob58]

2nd Cannibal's "Impressive". I think SlowHike has noted in other threads the added effectiveness of a sb. Now that night time temps are starting to drop it's time to test out the SS with a space blanket/ocf combo. So far, with ocf only for me it's a +60F comfort level. I added a 3/16" ccf cut to same size +2" as the ocf underpad between the ocf and hammock. Ok down to that low 50's. Notice something about using only the ocf only. Conditions ranged from ~50F (cold bottom night sleeping) to ~60F. Condensation visible on the ocf & undercover next morning. I will happy if comfort level drops down to low +20F with just adding a $4 , 3oz space blanket + a Mt.Washington as a quilt in place of a cold weather sleeping bag (which I don't own).

Regardless of how much temp extension you might get by adding the SB ( my guess between 10 and 20*F), IMO it is just very difficult to get much out of the SS without using as directed by HH, with the SB. The SB is really essential for managing condensation. For whatever reason, what ever very small amount of condensation forms on top of the SB never seems to contact my body or insulation inside the hammock. There probably is some minor accumulation that gets in my bag or clothing, but none that I have ever been able to notice, and certainly not causing any chilling effect. Maybe this is because the SB, being very near your back, does not get all that cold? I do frequently notice a few drops at the low point on the SB the next morning.

OTOH, without the SB, condensation inside the sil-nyl undercover can be considerable and will get your pad wet. As well as any other insulation that is in the UC. Then most likely the user will be cold. Although, the one time I did not use the SB in the field and I also got a lot of condensation ( high 40s-low50s), I was still plenty warm.

It is my impression that the majority of the poor results I have read about with the SS have involved not using the SB. For some reason, most people are really averse to even trying that, even though the designer says to do it.

I would say the 2nd most common problem is failure to have the pad, SB and UC ( plus whatever added insulation) adjusted so that there is a "snug fit", with the pad/SB firmly against the back, and no gap at the UC, where it's elatic edges contact the hammock.. At least that has mostly been my problem which when solved makes the SS work pretty much as advertised, in my experience.

[kwpapke]

1. What are your thoughts/suggestions re' SS or underquilt or something else???
2. Once properly set-up, how do you sleep? By that I am looking for do you sleep inside a bag, directly in the hammock with specific clothes on and a quilt/open bag on top etc. If you could address temperature ranges, that would be great.
Most of the folks in this forum will steer you to UQ's. There are a number of us SS fans out there however. Brief summary:

SS w/ SB:
- cheaper by a large margin
- does very well in wet conditions: the UC keeps you dry, the OCF pad dries quickly if it gets wet (mine has only once when I rolled it up in a rainstorm). Works well with the stock tarp.
- packs small: my HH Explorer UL + UC goes in my #4 snakeskins, the OCF pad + SB goes in a waterproof stuffsack that gets packed into the pad straps on the outside of my pack
- Must be used with a Space Blanket below 50-60 F depending on conditions
- Can't get below about 25F for most folks
- I have the overcover, but haven't used it yet. I will bring it next week with me to a 7-day backpack trip to Isle Royale where I am expecting wind and some humidity (lake effect). I'll report on its effectiveness when I return.
- Some folks report that the SS UC increases the tension in the entry seam where the hook-and-loop closure is. I haven't used my HH enough w/o the SS to compare - I always use the UC with my HH.

An UQ:
- Much more $$$
- May need a weathershield to stay dry in rainy conditions with the stock tarp. Alternative is a bigger (more weight, more bulk, more $) tarp.
- Tougher to keep down dry in wet conditions
- Compresses well, but still a bit more bulky
- Doesn't need a space blanket, so one less item to worry about
- Can get much lower temps if you are willing to pay enough $$$
- Comfy: no binding at the entry slit, etc.

How do I sleep? With a 30F down mummy bag:
- Used as a quilt above about 45F
- As a bag at temps below 45F
- Fully zipped with only my nose and mouth poking out below 35F or so
- Despite what some folks say about down compression, the mummy bag will give you about an extra 10 degrees. You can probably achieve the same thing with a top quilt by using a balaclava, etc. I had a mummy bag before I bought my HH, and I am happy to use it. I have no problems getting in/out of it in my hammock. Its a little tricky the first few times, but you can figure it out...

Clothes:
- silk longjohns always (to keep bag clean)
- gloves and LS Powerdry shirt below 45F
- 200 wgt fleece pullover and wool socks below 40F
- 200 wgt fleece pants and fleece headband or hat below 30F (if I have them with me)

I have been a SS user for all of 2008, and have spent nights in the field down to 23F (w/o fleece pants) in it successfully.

When $budget permits I will buy a Jacks-R-Better down UQ for very cold Minnesota winter camping. I am not a SS bigot, but I bought one as it was MUCH cheaper than a quilt to start out with, and so far I have yet to encounter conditions where it has not worked for me.

Hope this helps.

--Kurt

p.s.: one other positive for the SS w/ SB is the multi-tasking uses for the SB. It can be used in emergencies to keep someone warm in wet conditions. I used mine in the BWCA this Spring when I lost my rainjacket - cut a hole in it and used for a poncho - worked surprisingly well.

[daretowin]

Kurt,

Thanks for the great reply. I look forward to hearing from more of you!!! :scared:

Regards,

Dave

[slowhike]

I have no doubt that SS is a very usable piece of gear. I don't knock it at all when I say that I'm more into underquilts.
I am glad to see those who have used it give realistic reports on how to use it, it's strengths & limitations.
That kind of information is needed for any of the gear we trust on the trail, especially when it involves staying safe & warm:)

[toddkmiller]

It was a planned winter scouut camp but it was so cold we cancelled it for the troop. Since myself and two other leaders were on site with our kids we decided to stay the night. The 3 adults in were in HH with SS with dual down filled military issue sleeping bags. Our kids slept on the ground with only a tarp, Thermarest pads and the down bags. It turned out to be the coldest nights of the entire winter. We all woke up pretty toasty except one of the boys who had rolled out from uner the tarp and was covered with snow. :-)

It was certainly the coldest weather I had ever slept in and it was the first winter overnight for everyone else. The only time I was cold was the hour prior to going to bed. My buddy and I were literaly dancing around the fire and doing jumping jacks to warm up. Great experience though. I'll see if I can dig up the pictures.

[toddkmiller]

I've not added much on the space blanket conversations except a link to a newer version of the SB made w/ stronger, quieter materials.
I'm an underquilt user myself<G>.

A while back I had just noted that "most" people's experience w/ using a SB was that it didn't do as much as they had hoped, but BillyBob & some others here have found them helpful in extending the comfort range.
But I'm really wondering what kind of clothing (snow suit?), pads, etc, was used to keep a person warm at -13°f.
I sure wouldn't want to send someone out in those conditions w/o everything they needed to be safe. That would be dangerous & irresponsible.
You're right on the money regarding the clothing. We were all decked out in the appropriate layers from winter-weight merino wool undies, toque and socks. And as my old scout leader taught me, I made everyone change all the clothing before bed to fresh, dry layers. Now THAT was a cold 60 seconds. Certainly the fastest I ever changed clothes (and I was right next to the the fire).

I don't skimp on winter gear for me or my scouts. We have a rule that we inspect every kid's gear (including clothing) before camps and if they are found deficient they stay home. We also do a session with the parents about appropriate clothing. They still like to argue with me as to why little johnny can't wear his cotton gym socks in the winter. Go figure.

[slowhike]

It was a planned winter scouut camp but it was so cold we cancelled it for the troop. Since myself and two other leaders were on site with our kids we decided to stay the night. The 3 adults in were in HH with SS with dual down filled military issue sleeping bags. Our kids slept on the ground with only a tarp, Thermarest pads and the down bags. It turned out to be the coldest nights of the entire winter. We all woke up pretty toasty except one of the boys who had rolled out from uner the tarp and was covered with snow. :-)

It was certainly the coldest weather I had ever slept in and it was the first winter overnight for everyone else. The only time I was cold was the hour prior to going to bed. My buddy and I were literaly dancing around the fire and doing jumping jacks to warm up. Great experience though. I'll see if I can dig up the pictures.

Oh, so the three adults were sharing the same HH with SS???... Just Kiddin:D
When you say "dual down filled sleeping bags, I'm guessing you're talking about two sleeping bags per person? That's a lot of good insulation for the top side, but if you were not using any kind of pad to lay on, did you get cold on the bottom?
I know that even compressed down (or synthetic) insulation can still give you a few degrees of warmth, but you're talking some pretty cold stuff<G>.

My coldest night out was -5°f with hard wind, but we were in a tent w/ thermarest pads.

[toddkmiller]

Oh, so the three adults were sharing the same HH with SS???... Just Kiddin:D
When you say "dual down filled sleeping bags, I'm guessing you're talking about two sleeping bags per person? That's a lot of good insulation for the top side, but if you were not using any kind of pad to lay on, did you get cold on the bottom?
I know that even compressed down (or synthetic) insulation can still give you a few degrees of warmth, but you're talking some pretty cold stuff<G>.

My coldest night out was -5°f with hard wind, but we were in a tent w/ thermarest pads.
As good the HH is, there is no way it would hold the three of us.;-)
You are correct; we each had (2) bags. They were loaned to our troop from the Canadian Armed Forces. They have a program where they loan out gear to scout troops. They also loaned us 3 large aluminum sleds that we used to hike most of the gear in. Most of our kids wouldn't have the strength yet to carry all the necessary gear for an overnight of this magnitude so I hoofed all the bags in on the sled. That kept me warm for a while.

As I recall, none of us in the HH were bothered by cold bottoms. I only woke up once when the snow started falling on the tarp and then back to sleep.

[BillyBob58]

As good the HH is, there is no way it would hold the three of us.;-)
You are correct; we each had (2) bags. They were loaned to our troop from the Canadian Armed Forces. They have a program where they loan out gear to scout troops. They also loaned us 3 large aluminum sleds that we used to hike most of the gear in. Most of our kids wouldn't have the strength yet to carry all the necessary gear for an overnight of this magnitude so I hoofed all the bags in on the sled. That kept me warm for a while.

As I recall, none of us in the HH were bothered by cold bottoms. I only woke up once when the snow started falling on the tarp and then back to sleep. (emphasis added)

OK then, it looks like all you guys had for the bottom was one space blanket, one HH pad and one HH undercover each, if I have read this correctly? Plus some compressed down from your sleeping bags lower layer under your back, which should have been good for less than 5*F beneath your back, maybe a lot less. And maybe a little boost from your clothing, especially if it was synthetic so that it would suffer less from down compression when you laid on it. And with nothing more than this, all three(?) of you were warm on the bottom at minus 13*F plus a slight breeze.

As a big fan of the SS, I am none the less amazed. I thought I had achieved pretty good results with the SS, but I am not in your league! You have me beat by a good 30* or more! Sure, I have no doubt I could do minus 13F in a SS, but certainly not in just the basic SS under me with JUST the one pad, SB and UC.

My hat is off to you. Of course, you are from way up in Canada, and I am way down in MS so that might explain some of the difference. I think I want to go back and experiment even more with my SS this winter! It may have more potential than even I had ever realized.

[toddkmiller]

(emphasis added)

OK then, it looks like all you guys had for the bottom was one space blanket, one HH pad and one HH undercover each, if I have read this correctly? Plus some compressed down from your sleeping bags lower layer under your back, which should have been good for less than 5*F beneath your back, maybe a lot less. And maybe a little boost from your clothing, especially if it was synthetic so that it would suffer less from down compression when you laid on it. And with nothing more than this, all three(?) of you were warm on the bottom at minus 13*F plus a slight breeze.

As a big fan of the SS, I am none the less amazed. I thought I had achieved pretty good results with the SS, but I am not in your league! You have me beat by a good 30* or more! Sure, I have no doubt I could do minus 13F in a SS, but certainly not in just the basic SS under me with JUST the one pad, SB and UC.

My hat is off to you. Of course, you are from way up in Canada, and I am way down in MS so that might explain some of the difference. I think I want to go back and experiment even more with my SS this winter! It may have more potential than even I had ever realized.
I'm sure you would do fine. We plan on another 'deep freeze' this winter and our hope is to have a bunch of the kids outfitted with HH at that time. I also recently bought CJH that I have used in mild weahter and I like it a lot. I'm anxious to see how it performs in the colder weather. Unfortunately there is no spot to slide in my space blanket and I don't like to sleep directly on it. Time will tell.

[elcolombianito]

:) All your experience with the SS has just helped me decide on getting one for my lovely HH. Thanks.


... I also recently bought CJH that I have used in mild weahter and I like it a lot. I'm anxious to see how it performs in the colder weather. Unfortunately there is no spot to slide in my space blanket and I don't like to sleep directly on it...

then you might like this photo for some ideas:
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/1/9/4/0/img_0427.jpg

here's the related thread too:
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5383

[Ramblinrev]

Will the Super Shelter fit the larger HH like the safari? Or is suitable only for the regular sized hammocks?

[BillyBob58]

Will the Super Shelter fit the larger HH like the safari? Or is suitable only for the regular sized hammocks?

I'm pretty sure it will not. In fact, they have 2 different sized SSs, a smaller one for ULBP size, and a larger one for Explorers. Pretty much a custom fit.
Although personally, I feel it could be rigged up by a DIYer.

[Dewey]

Hi All!

its been a good while since I last posted and i thought id bring you up to date.
My last post was about me, my hennessey, an infaltable pad, a fleece bag, and a remarkably comfy nights sleep in temps which froze the
water in my water bottle.

I was also wearing underarmour, fleece top and bottom, balaclava, wool cap, and tucked in a 15 degree down bag.

ok, that was then, this is now.

my inlaws, great people that they are, got me a supershelter for christmas.
I must say, my experience with the thing is much the same as billybob describes.

And i concur, the sB makes all the difference.

and.....being one who just can not leave well enough alone, ive come up with an insulation device id like to share.

Ive moved to a new house. Inside the house there was wall to wall carpet upstairs. I took out the carpet because i prefer the oak floor underneath. underneath the carpet but above the oak flooring lay ocf padding almost an inch thick. most of it found its way to the dump, but one scrap I cut to the size of my ocf pad that cane with the SS.
then I bought some spray-on adhesive( something good for plastic and mylar), sprayed the foam, and attached a SB to it.

I put this pad on top of the hennessey pad so the SB is tight against my hammock bottom.
the extra foam is dandy insulation and works like a charm with the SB attached.

I pack the hennessey ocf and my carpet ofc with attached SB in an 8L sea and summit dry bag.....much as Kurt does.

I used this set up in the white
mountians this past august.......a lot of rain, i must say!... for a two week trip.

The temps dipped into the 40'son some nights and the rain was quite annoying, but i slept warm and snug in my hennessey.

ill let you all know how the field testing goes at lower temps.

Best,
Dewey

[slowhike]

Can you give us the size & weight of the carpet pad w/ the SB adhered to it?

[Dewey]

well.....the size is much the same as the hennessey ocf though a bit thicker. it compresses easily. it weighs a tad more than the hennessey ocf, but not much. It packs about the same as two hennessey pads and weighs a touch more.

sorry, i have no scale to weigh the pad.


best,
Dewey

[slowhike]

well.....the size is much the same as the hennessey ocf though a bit thicker. it compresses easily. it weighs a tad more than the hennessey ocf, but not much. It packs about the same as two hennessey pads and weighs a touch more.

sorry, i have no scale to weigh the pad.


best,
Dewey

No problem. That gives a good idea. Sounds like it works well... & it was cheap!!!

[Chris.Biomed]

Is anyone using two underpads at the same time? What would the temperature rating be, just guessing that is. Thinking that this would be an option for tempers around 30 (I'm a cold sleeper).

[slowhike]

Is anyone using two underpads at the same time? What would the temperature rating be, just guessing that is. Thinking that this would be an option for tempers around 30 (I'm a cold sleeper).

Some people (including myself) will sometimes use a Segmented Pad Extender (SPE) by Speer Hammocks for two or more pads.
The SPE will keep the pads together & also give extra insulation on the sides.
http://www.speerhammocks.com/Products/SPE.htm

[hikingjer]

I am a premium member, but I thought any body could buy from them. You just don't get the small( but sometimes larger) discount.

On the way down to our vacation in the Blue and Wallowa Mountains in northeast Oregon and southeast Washington, we swung by an REI and bought the Adventure Medic Heatsheet space blanket. I used the space blanket with HH Super Shelter about 4 nights down to 35 degrees. The pad inside the hammock was a Cascade Designs Z-Rest with some clothing on the sides of the pad. The sleeping bag was a 30 degree rated North Face.

Results: The space blanket is necessary at temps down to 35. No condensation problems. I did feel a few cold spots during the coldest hours. Cold spots seemed to be in places where the space blanket did not reach because of crumpling.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/2858785840_5b46942647.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2858785830_6bc1ec008b.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2294/2856392810_1321933459.jpg?v=0

There were sidewinds. The 8' x 10' sil-nylon tarp did a much better job of blocking the winds so I was warmer than with the stock HH tarp.

The Adventure Medic Heatsheet space blanket seems pretty fragile. How many uses have you all been getting out of them before having to replace it?

[Just Jeff]

Good report. Do I understand you correctly that your bottom insulation was, from top down, the Z-rest and clothing, hammock, space blanket, supershelter OCF pad, supershelter sil undercover?

[BillyBob58]

...............................

The Adventure Medic Heatsheet space blanket seems pretty fragile. How many uses have you all been getting out of them before having to replace it?

I am still using the original WM $2 SB I bought for the SS 2 years ago, and it is still good to go. It has been on a couple of week long trips plus numerous over-nighters. I have another one which I cut down to the shape of the pad, and after trimming it is very fragile on the edges and tears very easily. I used a heat sheet for several nights down in my Pea Pod on last weeks trip. It seems to me like it will last quite a while, and is much more pleasant to use ( quieter etc) than the WM SB. Time will tell if it will last as long as the WM SB, but I don't see any reason why it won't.

[BillyBob58]

Is anyone using two underpads at the same time? What would the temperature rating be, just guessing that is. Thinking that this would be an option for tempers around 30 (I'm a cold sleeper).

I don't know how to quantify it, but it should be a whole lot warmer. I use the single pad plus SB down into at least the mid-high 30s, and some of the Canadian users ( i.e., ToddKMiller) have gone WAY lower than that, amazingly to me. But with the addition of just the kidney/torso pads, I can go a good bit lower than the 30s( that is just me, of course. YMMV and probably will). I can only guess that an entire 2nd pad would be even warmer. Although, you probably need the extra warmth more under the kidney and torso and butt areas, so it might be more weight efficient concentrating the extra insulation there.

[hikingjer]

Good report. Do I understand you correctly that your bottom insulation was, from top down, the Z-rest and clothing, hammock, space blanket, supershelter OCF pad, supershelter sil undercover?

Yep, those were the layers.

[hikingjer]

I am still using the original WM $2 SB I bought for the SS 2 years ago, and it is still good to go. It has been on a couple of week long trips plus numerous over-nighters. I have another one which I cut down to the shape of the pad, and after trimming it is very fragile on the edges and tears very easily. I used a heat sheet for several nights down in my Pea Pod on last weeks trip. It seems to me like it will last quite a while, and is much more pleasant to use ( quieter etc) than the WM SB. Time will tell if it will last as long as the WM SB, but I don't see any reason why it won't.

That's good news. I suppose a bit of common sense care like not dragging it over sharp branches or stepping on it helps extend its lifespan. Mine developed a web wrinkle creases after a few nights. I wonder if that cuts down on reflective efficiency (?).

-------------------------------

I accidentally stuck my thumb through the HH OCF while moving it to the side to get in the hammock through the underslit. It does not seem to have decreased its loft efficiency. But, I don't want to get any more holes in the OCF. That's fragile stuff. Does anybody know a good way to repair HH SS underpad holes that does not add weight?

[BillyBob58]

I accidentally stuck my thumb through the HH OCF while moving it to the side to get in the hammock through the underslit. It does not seem to have decreased its loft efficiency. But, I don't want to get any more holes in the OCF. That's fragile stuff. Does anybody know a good way to repair HH SS underpad holes that does not add weight?

I've poked a few holes in mine over the 2 years I've had it. It is indeed fragile, but easily fixed. A dab of seam sealer does the trick. You might want to use a little duct tape on one side to pull the edges together, then seam seal the other. It can be a little messy. When it is dry, it will be stronger than new.

[kwpapke]

On the way down to our vacation in the Blue and Wallowa Mountains in northeast Oregon and southeast Washington
...snip...
The Adventure Medic Heatsheet space blanket seems pretty fragile. How many uses have you all been getting out of them before having to replace it?
I was in the Eagle Cap in late July - great place!

I've got about 30+ nights in on my heatsheet with no visible wear. I *do* roll it up inside my SS OCF pad, so its always well-protected.

--Kurt

[hikingjer]

I was in the Eagle Cap in late July - great place!

I've got about 30+ nights in on my heatsheet with no visible wear. I *do* roll it up inside my SS OCF pad, so its always well-protected.

--Kurt

The Eagle Cap is very nice but way too crowded in spots like the Lake Basin. Reminds me of Rocky Mtn National Park in Colorado. Below is a little eye candy from 2 good, solid dayhikes off-trail and on steep, rugged old miner trails.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2855598661_b2af608444.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3192/2855578695_5d6eb4f325.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3241/2856433650_1e5650742b.jpg?v=0

More pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/74014145@N00/ and on Page 2 and Page 3 (with pics of hammocking in Dolly Sods, West Virginia after Oregon)

We camped on a friend's family acreage near Enterprise, Oregon. The HH in the pics far above was pitched there.

The Inland Northwest has great trees for hanging. They're not so big and wide-spaced as trees on the westside, temperate rainforest Pacific Northwest. Unfortunately, we were not able to squeeze in a backpack trip to the high Wallowas. An "unseasonable" (the Nat'l Weather Service's description) cold front hit the Northwest about Labor Day weekend. The snowline dropped down to about 7000 feet. I was with a cold-averse dog and woman and we did not have our cold weather gear for the Wallowa high country. It was probably dropping down to 25 degrees F in the Wallowa high country when we were in the area. God forbid I would've had to stoop to ground dwelling with the 'ole lady and 2 shivering dogs at night. So, we retreated in defeat to lower elevations of the Wenaha-Tucannon Wilderness in southeast Washington. There the ENO Doublenest and 8 x 10 silnylon went into use.

[Chris.Biomed]

I don't know how to quantify it, but it should be a whole lot warmer. I use the single pad plus SB down into at least the mid-high 30s, and some of the Canadian users ( i.e., ToddKMiller) have gone WAY lower than that, amazingly to me. But with the addition of just the kidney/torso pads, I can go a good bit lower than the 30s( that is just me, of course. YMMV and probably will). I can only guess that an entire 2nd pad would be even warmer. Although, you probably need the extra warmth more under the kidney and torso and butt areas, so it might be more weight efficient concentrating the extra insulation there.

Hennessy doesn't seem to sell the torso pad or the kidney pad anymore, that's why I was thinking of buying an extra pad and maybe trimming it down a bit.

[BillyBob58]

Hennessy doesn't seem to sell the torso pad or the kidney pad anymore, that's why I was thinking of buying an extra pad and maybe trimming it down a bit.

Yep, I notice they are not listed at their web site. But, I don't think it was listed at the site when I got mine, as I just asked them about it by phone and ordered it that way. I hope they have not dis-continued it. I think it is a pretty big boost for little weight and money and bulk, at least a tripling of loft right where you need it most.

I wonder if that pad would trim down without problems? I don't think it would. I plan on setting mine up soon, and I'll check that out.