poison Ivy vs. stealth camping

[BillyBob58]

I'd like to get a bunch of opinions on how you guys/gals deal with the threat of poison ivy/oak/sumac.

Within a few days of the arrival of my HHULAS Explorer, I was off to Wyoming for a 1 week high altitude backpack. I have never seen any poison ivy up there. So I hung at will/wherever 2 trees could be found. But I struggled with the hammock and super shelter learning curve the whole trip. So after getting back and reading up, I was gung ho to practice in more benign conditions in Northern Mississippi. So I was off to a local park to hang from any of millions of trees, when I discovered a new possible problem. I am very sensitive to poison ivy, and I haven't had any trouble from it in 10 years or more, simply by aggressively avoiding "leaves of 3". When in doubt, I avoid any suspicious plant.

But when I got out in the southern woods to hang, I was suddenly aware that a huge amount of these trees have vines growing from the ground and around the trees all the way up. Some of these vines were furry looking buggers. I could not see any leaves. I couldn't shake the worry that some of these vines might belong to the poison group, so I avoided them. But avoiding these vines made it very difficult to come up with 2 appropriately spaced trees, EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THICK FOREST!

So, I was wondering how you stealth hangers avoid this potential problem, or do you just ignore it? Have any of you ever had any problems with poison plants while hammocking? Do any of you know how to positively identify vines that might be poisonous, other than "leaves of 3, let it be"?

I asked Ed Speer about this. He has as great a concern as I do, and I believe he said he just avoided all vines, and he has never had any trouble. But avoiding vines in MS cuts out about 3 out of 4 trees, or at least it does in some areas.

Bill

[blackbishop351]

I can't really help on this one - I'm apparently immune to poison ivy/oak for the most part. When I was younger and an avid paintballer, I used to crawl through fields of it and never got an itch... :p

[Coffee]

I never had it either. I still say it is a conspiracy that almost everyone else is in on. I grew up with the stuff growing all around my backyard.

Now I just try not to touch it or if I do I don't touch my face, than wash my hands. I never thought about it in terms of hammocking.

[BillyBob58]

Well then I can see the approach of you two, to this potential problem, would be to ignore it! Although even for lucky folks like you, it's not all good news. I had the exact same story is y'all do, which is to say I was completely oblivious to poison anything throughout my childhood and young adult years. I crawled through every kind of woods and brush, and I know in retrospect that it was all infested with poison ivy/oak! Oh for the good old days in so many ways! But the bad news is that one sunny day when I was living in Arizona, at about age 35, I hiked down into Clear Creek Canyon and took a nice swim, and explored along the creek bank. Just as I had done so many times before in Arizona canyons. Oblivious to any danger other than rattlesnakes. I don't remember how long it took, whether that night or the next night, but soon I was covered all over my back with the most miserable itching rash that you can imagine. It took a week or two to get completely over it.

So I envy you both, but unless you're both starting to get a little long in the tooth -- like me -- you're not necessarily "out of the woods" yet! It's never too late to become sensitive to poison ivy. ;)

In the meantime, I'm still hoping there's some plant expert here among the Hammocking community who can give some advice on which tree encircling vines are safe, if any, or how to recognize the dangerous ones. Or, to give me the good news that all vines are safe in assuming you cant see "leaves of three" attached to them. :D Considering the millions of trees available locally, it would cut my setup time (since I'm including spotting the appropriate trees in this setup time) by a factor of 10 if I didn't have to worry about which vines are poisonous! Or could at least easily spot the ones that are to be avoided.
Bill

[Touch of Grey]

Did a web search because I was curious also about poison ivy vines. I seemed to remember somewhere having read about if the vine is hairy looking avoid it. Thus when I wen surfing I was greatful to fond this website and the associated pictures.

http://poisonivy.aesir.com/img/pictures/pi/index.php

It cleared up a few issues for me, hopefully it will for some of the rest of you also. Of course it also broght up some fears and ideas that basically stated from my standpoint is this, 'If in doubt it is certainly safer to leave it alone than find out the hard way.

TOG

[neo]

i always hang on tree's that are vineless:cool: neo

[Coffee]

Did a web search because I was curious also about poison ivy vines. I seemed to remember somewhere having read about if the vine is hairy looking avoid it. Thus when I wen surfing I was greatful to fond this website and the associated pictures.

http://poisonivy.aesir.com/img/pictures/pi/index.php

It cleared up a few issues for me, hopefully it will for some of the rest of you also. Of course it also broght up some fears and ideas that basically stated from my standpoint is this, 'If in doubt it is certainly safer to leave it alone than find out the hard way.

TOG

Hmm after looking at a few of those pics it seams that a former girl friend of mine that would claim that every vine see saw was posien ivy was right some of the time. Although after a while I started touching most of them. Part of me still thinks it is conspearicy. I still haven't had it.

[Peter_pan]

If You don't know an English Ivy from Poison Ivy best to avoid vines if you are highly allergic.

Pan

[BillyBob58]

Did a web search because I was curious also about poison ivy vines. I seemed to remember somewhere having read about if the vine is hairy looking avoid it. Thus when I wen surfing I was greatful to fond this website and the associated pictures.

http://poisonivy.aesir.com/img/pictures/pi/index.php

It cleared up a few issues for me, hopefully it will for some of the rest of you also. Of course it also broght up some fears and ideas that basically stated from my standpoint is this, 'If in doubt it is certainly safer to leave it alone than find out the hard way.

TOG

Thank you so much TOG for that excellent website link. That has been a tremendous help, and has proved that my suspicions about those furry/hairy vines were correct. I'm not sure why it is I was suspicious of them, I must've heard something somewhere else at one time. My previous Internet searches on this subject had not turned up such a great site.

In addition, there may be one or more really helpful products that I have learned about at that site, for instance, a product called Zanfel.
http://poisonivy.aesir.com/view/zanfel.html
there are many other products listed also, which might be helpful. Personally, I'm going to check out the Zanfel and have it handy, just in case.

Although it looks like the absolutely safest advice, first told to me by Ed Speer and confirmed here or by Peter Pan and Neo, for example, is simply to avoid all vines. And that's the advice that I had already been following on my own. Better a long time trying to find poison free trees than itching to the point of insanity. But that is truly hard to do here in northern Mississippi. But in the mean time, all of those pictures of the Wooly vines are going to give me a real helping hand in knowing which vines to for sure avoid like the plague (SP?).

Thanks again every body for all of the help.
Bill

[Risk]

Poison Ivy vines have little redish rootlets. Several per inch for small vines and a whole forest of them for larger vines. The only other local vine that I know of that has similar vines is the harmless Virginia Creeper. I can't tell the difference between them in the winter when the leaves are gone.

I avoid trees with these vines when I can. When the trees have poison ivy on them, it is likely that the ground also has a number of small poison ivy plants too.

Risk

[blackbishop351]

Hey, Risk! Good to have you back - long time no see!

[BillyBob58]

Poison Ivy vines have little redish rootlets. Several per inch for small vines and a whole forest of them for larger vines. The only other local vine that I know of that has similar vines is the harmless Virginia Creeper. I can't tell the difference between them in the winter when the leaves are gone.

I avoid trees with these vines when I can. When the trees have poison ivy on them, it is likely that the ground also has a number of small poison ivy plants too.

Risk

Well Mr.Risk,
I have been hanging in the backyard on the risk hammock stand. At least I feel safe against Poison Ivy there! The MS woods are a bit trickier. :eek: But so far I have been able to avoid the poison plants. And we haven't even discussed Sumac yet!
Bill

[Frolicking Dino]

Mr. Risk,

The female dino here - made one of your test hammocks and love it. Now to convince that pesky male dino that the dino that hang together, stay together :D

[slowhike]

Mr. Risk,

The female dino here - made one of your test hammocks and love it. Now to convince that pesky male dino that the dino that hang together, stay together :D

hey mrs dino... glad to hear the hammock is working for you.
and i agree w/ those that said that if you can't be sure it's not poison ivy, keep going until you find trees that don't have vines.
the vines do contain the same rash causing oils as the leaves. and that oil, like a lot of other oils, can hang around a long time in places like your hammock support straps.
but it can be washed away w/ soap & water.
if you discover that you have accidentally brushed against it, washing immediately may safe you a lot of discomfort. ...tim

[Just Jeff]

I started hiking with Ivy Block, Tecnu soap, and Zanfel in California...I was crazy stupid allergic to it out there even though I've never really had a problem with it here on the east coast. I was very careful too - I never hung from any tree with vines. The problem out there is the poison oak...it looks just like shrubs or small trees and still zapped me even when it didn't have any leaves. I had to be careful of the brush around my site even if my hammock trees were completely clear of any vines. Scary stuff out there.

But it's no more of a concern in a hammock than it would be for tenters.

[BillyBob58]

I started hiking with Ivy Block, Tecnu soap, and Zanfel in California...I was crazy stupid allergic to it out there even though I've never really had a problem with it here on the east coast. (BB58's emphasis) I was very careful too - I never hung from any tree with vines. The problem out there is the poison oak...it looks just like shrubs or small trees and still zapped me even when it didn't have any leaves. I had to be careful of the brush around my site even if my hammock trees were completely clear of any vines. Scary stuff out there.

But it's no more of a concern in a hammock than it would be for tenters.

That's odd. Since the east is loaded with p.ivy. Maybe the p.oak is just harder to avoid, or spot? Because the first horrible reaction I ever had was in Arizona. I've only had one minor reaction in the last 20 years, here in the east. But then again, since that first ordeal, I've been very paranoid trying to avoid it, east or west!

Did you find that the Zanfel or anything else was helpful?

[Just Jeff]

Check your PMs.

[Risk]

if you discover that you have accidentally brushed against it, washing immediately may safe you a lot of discomfort. ...tim

And if you do not have ready access to detergent and water, much of the oil can be removed by rubbing it with dry dust or leaf mulch which absorbs the oil just like it does oil in cooking pots and fry pans. At home, whenever I find I have just brushed against poison ivy, I wash. In the woods, I rub with dry dirt or dry leaf mulch as soon as I can.

Seems funny to some of my hiking friends, but I clean my hands with dirt several times a day. :eek: Mostly, within a few minutes of shaking hands with a fellow hiker. :rolleyes:

[Risk]

Well Mr.Risk,
I have been hanging in the backyard on the risk hammock stand.
Bill

Hope it works well for you. Yours is probably prettier than mine.

[Nudgeworth]

Heh, interesting thread.
If I ever go tramping(hiking) over there I'll steer clear of vines.

Fortunately we don't have posion Ivy over here.
Unfortunately we have "tree nettle". it can grow upto 3 yard's tall.
I've only seen it once though, about 20 year's ago. the person who pointed it out out to me said that a friend once brushed a leaf and his hand swelled upto the size of a ham!

And according to this link, http://www.rsnz.org/archives/education/science_fairs/natfair96/02.html
It's been known to kill dog's and horses.

Fortunately though I think that it's found mainly in the Warmer North Island, and I live in the South Island.
:)

[Grinder]

I gotta side with Billybob here.

On my May hike, I was amazed at the amount of three leaf vines on everything near the trail. Big leaves, small leaves , shiny leaves, dull leaves. (Never saw any fuzzy leaves, but I'm sure they're there)

I don't see how you could stealth camp if you're not immune to poison ivy.

In the competitive world of nature, all the plants fight for sunlight and room. The trail makes some of each and the vines try to fill the space.

I finally gave up my dreams of stealth camping.

Tom

[greggg3]

I am highly allergic to p. ivy, p. oak, p. sumac, I can echo the comments about washing after exposure - if I can get washed quickly after exposure, I'm usually OK. On the vines on the trees, if the vine is hairy, tiny fine hairs, usually holding it tight to the tree, it always causes me problems, I avoid this like the plague. I can break out if exposed to the smoke if the stuff is burned in a fire. Grapevine on the other hand has no tiny fine hairs, is usually not stuck tight to the bark of the tree, and causes no problems for me.

[Cannibal]

I can roll around in the stuff and have no problem. :D :p

[BillyBob58]

I can roll around in the stuff and have no problem. :D :p

Enjoy your luck for now, but don't get too excited about that yet. That used to describe me. Despite spending my childhood thru young adult years in the Georgia and Arizona wilds, crashing without thinking thru the thickest brush, I never had a problem until about age 36. Then I learned my lesson. I think I read that is common, that the vast majority (all?) are sensitive, but many will not have a reaction until they have had multiple exposure.

And Gregg, yes, that ugly, hairy vine seems to be the key to identification. There are so many plants with 3 leaves, even leaves that otherwise closely resemble PI, it can really be tough ( for me ) getting a positive ID. Plus, they are off the trees and on the ground in winter. I now realize that many PI looking plants are not, but I still avoid touching them if possible. But that nasty woolly vine, on the other hand, run for your life! :eek: And look carefully, they are sometimes very small.

Are there any botanist ( amateur or pro) types here that have any other tips for how to tell which 3 leaved plants are OK?

Recently, I was looking very closely at a thick PI looking vine, and I was baffled. Not a "leaf of 3" in sight anywhere! But as I slowly followed ( with my eyes- no touching!) the vine up the large tree, I noticed the tree itself appeared to have tons of leaves of 3 at a height about 12 to 20 feet up. Huge leaves, lots of them, that appeared to be growing off of stout tree branches. But as I kept looking closely, I could finally see that these branches/leaves were not part of the tree, but actually growing out of the vine itself! Fantastic camouflage! That would have been a nasty surprise for me had I not seen that vine and tied off to that otherwise excellent tree.

OTOH, on my recent WA Olympics trip, in the jungle of the Hoh Rain Forest hiking towards the glaciers, I was constantly in the midst of leaves of 3! And those things looked like the real deal, with a smooth stem and middle leaf out there a half inch or so from the other and the two side leaves tight together. But I did not notice the evil vine. And because of what people said about the lack of PI or Oak in this area, and because of a similar experience hiking thru dense forest 20 years ago on the way to climb Mt.Baker, I sucked up my anxiety and ignored it. No problems. :)

Also, I wouuldn't know where to start with IDing poison Sumac. Apparently, just being paranoid about the PI/Oak is serving me OK, no problems in many years.

[lyleb]

Often confused with Poison Ivy is Virginia Creeper. Both have rootlets that attach the vine to a tree, but if you look close at these rootlets you can distinguish which is which. Virginia Creeper rootlets end in an adhesive disk, which appears like a small suction cup holding the vine to the tree. Poison Ivy rootlets do not have these disks. This fact allows identification even in winter. Still use some caution tho, Poison Ivy and Virginia Creeper have been known to share a tree.

Here is a link that explains some additional differences in some commonly confused vines.

http://www.ipm.msu.edu/CAT05_land/L06-17-05poisonivy.htm

One note, Virginia Creeper USUALLY has 5 leaflets, but can range anywhere from 3 to 7. A distinguishing characteristic of Virginia Creeper are the disks mentioned above, and the fact that the petiole (stem) of the leaflets are very short, or appear to be non-existent. The Petiole of Poison Ivy is pronounced.

By the way, if you do get a case of Poison Ivy, oak, sumac, try "Zanfel" to treat it. Works fantastic for me. You get to shower/wash and rub the product into the rash until it stops itching, then rinse. Feels great while doing it, and the itch never returned. Warning: Expensive - $30 for a one ounce tube, but that is enough to treat multiple cases. Was recommended to me by an AT thru-hiking Emergency Room physician. Can be purchased over-the-counter.

[BillyBob58]

Often confused with Poison Ivy is Virginia Creeper. Both have rootlets that attach the vine to a tree, but if you look close at these rootlets you can distinguish which is which. Virginia Creeper rootlets end in an adhesive disk, which appears like a small suction cup holding the vine to the tree. Poison Ivy rootlets do not have these disks. This fact allows identification even in winter. Still use some caution tho, Poison Ivy and Virginia Creeper have been known to share a tree.

Here is a link that explains some additional differences in some commonly confused vines.

http://www.ipm.msu.edu/CAT05_land/L06-17-05poisonivy.htm

One note, Virginia Creeper USUALLY has 5 leaflets, but can range anywhere from 3 to 7. A distinguishing characteristic of Virginia Creeper are the disks mentioned above, and the fact that the petiole (stem) of the leaflets are very short, or appear to be non-existent. The Petiole of Poison Ivy is pronounced.

By the way, if you do get a case of Poison Ivy, oak, sumac, try "Zanfel" to treat it. Works fantastic for me. You get to shower/wash and rub the product into the rash until it stops itching, then rinse. Feels great while doing it, and the itch never returned. Warning: Expensive - $30 for a one ounce tube, but that is enough to treat multiple cases. Was recommended to me by an AT thru-hiking Emergency Room physician. Can be purchased over-the-counter.


Thanks, that is some great additional help. Didn't know about those "suction cup" deals on creeper. And I have been meaning to get the Zanfel, have heard good things. Like you said, expensive. I saw some "almost" clones beside it at walgreens, but I have heard no reports on how the other works. It had many of the same ingredients, much cheaper. But I'll probably stick with Zanfel till I hear the other stuff is as good.

[Crawldaddy]

The best stuff out there... http://www.ivyblock.com/

[BillyBob58]

PS:
I'm going to print and take that article Iyleb supplied to the woods with me, to see if some of the things I think are poison ivy are NOT. I thought the stems (as opposed to the vines) on PI were completely smooth, but this article says they are "slightly hairy".

Also, the "alternate leaf" thing with PI is a little confusing. Is this saying that each bunch of 3 leaves comes off of a main or larger stem in an "alternate" pattern, IOW, one comes off to the left and then a small distance later another comes off to the right?

As opposed to some of the non-PI plants, which have an "opposite" pattern and which has one stem of 3 leaves coming of a main stem to the "left" and then at the exact same spot another group of 3 leaves going off to the "right"? Is that what this means, people knowledgeable about plants?

[jlb2012]

Also, the "alternate leaf" thing with PI is a little confusing. Is this saying that each bunch of 3 leaves comes off of a main or larger stem in an "alternate" pattern, IOW, one comes off to the left and then a small distance later another comes off to the right?

As opposed to some of the non-PI plants, which have an "opposite" pattern and which has one stem of 3 leaves coming of a main stem to the "left" and then at the exact same spot another group of 3 leaves going off to the "right"? Is that what this means, people knowledgeable about plants?

yes - you have it correct

for example small box elder seedlings are sometimes confused with poison ivy but box elder being in the maple family has opposite leaves (and usually more than 3 leaflets when larger)

[lyleb]

You appear to understand the difference between Alternate and Opposite. Glad you found the info helpful. I'm not an expert, but have had some forest vegetation courses years ago at Michigan State. Don't think the plants have mutated in the time frame I'm talking. :-)

To those who may be confused:

Poison Ivy has compound leaves, each group of three is actually one leaf. Each section of this leaf is a leaflet. Looking at one leaf, the leaflets may be confused as opposite. You must look at the pattern of attachment of the entire leaf (or each group of three leaflets) to determine if the plant is alternate or opposite.

[FreeTheWeasel]

Watch out for poison ivy. I went camping last november with some friends. We headed into a Minnesota forrest where it is legal to camp anywhere. Well, we sat around a fire that evening (we found an old one from some hunter or logger) and I was pulling at some weeds that were in the way. I really wasn't thinking much of it. There were no leaves on them, they were just some tough stems.

Later, I went to the bathroom.

Next morning, I had a bit of itching. Hmm, I thought to myself. I wonder if I've gotten another case of jock itch. i went home and bought some antifungal. It itched on and off the whole day.

I wonder if this is poison ivy? I scrubbed with some Zanfel I was given for running an adventure race.

The next day I went to work. Mid afternoon, I dropped everything I was doing and ran, not walked, ran to the showers and scubbed with Zanfel again. The itch was unrelenting.

That evening I went to the acute care clinic and requested some predisone. Before the physician's assistant would dispense it, however, I had to prove to her that I truly needed it. So I dropped my pants. She nearly fell over backwards, and not because I am a fabulous example of the male species.

I never saw anyone write a script so fast in my life.

Beware poison ivy. Not fun. Not at all.

Everytime I go into the woods, I play the "Is it poison ivy or isn't it game." The problem is that you don't get a prize unless you get it wrong.

FreeTheWeasel
(The name has nothing to do with the story above . . .)

[Preacha Man]

Watch out for poison ivy. I went camping last november with some friends. We headed into a Minnesota forrest where it is legal to camp anywhere. Well, we sat around a fire that evening (we found an old one from some hunter or logger) and I was pulling at some weeds that were in the way. I really wasn't thinking much of it. There were no leaves on them, they were just some tough stems.

Later, I went to the bathroom.

Next morning, I had a bit of itching. Hmm, I thought to myself. I wonder if I've gotten another case of jock itch. i went home and bought some antifungal. It itched on and off the whole day.

I wonder if this is poison ivy? I scrubbed with some Zanfel I was given for running an adventure race.

The next day I went to work. Mid afternoon, I dropped everything I was doing and ran, not walked, ran to the showers and scubbed with Zanfel again. The itch was unrelenting.

That evening I went to the acute care clinic and requested some predisone. Before the physician's assistant would dispense it, however, I had to prove to her that I truly needed it. So I dropped my pants. She nearly fell over backwards, and not because I am a fabulous example of the male species.

I never saw anyone write a script so fast in my life.

Beware poison ivy. Not fun. Not at all.

Everytime I go into the woods, I play the "Is it poison ivy or isn't it game." The problem is that you don't get a prize unless you get it wrong.

FreeTheWeasel
(The name has nothing to do with the story above . . .)


I just have to say this is the best/funniest post ever!!!! Especially your ending. Yes beware of Poison Ivy, my hiking partner is so alergic that it turns into an emergency to get him out of the woods if he gets near it. So we always play the game too. Plus it helps to always wash your hands when out in the woods after tampering with vegetation.

[BillyBob58]

You appear to understand the difference between Alternate and Opposite. Glad you found the info helpful. I'm not an expert, but have had some forest vegetation courses years ago at Michigan State. Don't think the plants have mutated in the time frame I'm talking. :-)

To those who may be confused:

Poison Ivy has compound leaves, each group of three is actually one leaf. Each section of this leaf is a leaflet. Looking at one leaf, the leaflets may be confused as opposite. You must look at the pattern of attachment of the entire leaf (or each group of three leaflets) to determine if the plant is alternate or opposite.


HOI but box elder being in the maple family has opposite leaves (and usually more than 3 leaflets when larger)
__________________
HOI


HOI and Iyleb, the clarification steadily increases! Leaflets of 3, leave it be!

[jlb2012]

wrt FTW's tale of woe - PI without leaves can be recognized by the cinnamon colored leaf bud along with the general shape of the vine - sort of like an old piece of wire sticking out of the ground - of course if its climbing a tree already look for the fuzzy vine but this is in ref. to the plants that are not climbing yet