View Full Version : My Speer hammock suspension
I took a bit of a different route on my Speer kit hammock. I started with a length or cord about 36" long (something like Amsteel would work fine) and tied that into a loop using a Double Fishermans's knot. Then using a Prussic knot attached the loop to the descending rings. Next, I used the normal gathering method as laid out in Ed's book for the end of the hammock. I took that and folded it over the Double Fisherman's knot and secured the fabric with a tie wrap. Tested it all out and it held well with no slipping of the fabric. Here's some pics:
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=15&pictureid=89
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=15&pictureid=88
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=15&pictureid=87
Anyone see any issues with this method? I gain about 6" of hammock length on each end over using the overhand knot that Ed talks about in his book.
John
I would feel better if you at least wrapped the rope around the material so it is cinching down on it. I can'tbelieve the wire tie doesn't slip or just break.
I worried about that as well, but there is no way that tie wrap is going anywhere! It may break and if that does become an issue, I will have to whip the ends instead. There was absolutely no slipping of any fabric under the tie wrap and I gave it a pretty good toss and turn test.
John
*cough* sheet bend *cough* :D
Similar to a sheet bend, that is what got me thinking, but I don't think I could trust one in a situation like this.
John
If it were me then, I'd use a double sheet bend with an overhand knot to tie it off for security. But it's not my hammock. It's yours. Let your conscience rule.
Ramblinrev
08-26-2008, 18:52
Personally I would trust a sheet pend over the tie the way you have it. The tie is fine for the whipping. I don't like the idea of the tie being the only thing keeping the fabric and rope joined. The breaking strength of those ties is not all that high last I looked at them. Something <100# if I remember right.
I have hung from a sheet bend and it held my 250# just dandy. I've also used that knot in my theatrical rigging for major loads and never had one give way.Even a larkshead would be a step up in my opinion. Just my own thoughts.
If it were me then, I'd use a double sheet bend with an overhand knot to tie it off for security. But it's not my hammock. It's yours. Let your conscience rule.
Thanks for the input. I'll whip the end. Using all those knots would shorten the hammock too much.
Personally I would trust a sheet pend over the tie the way you have it. The tie is fine for the whipping. I don't like the idea of the tie being the only thing keeping the fabric and rope joined. The breaking strength of those ties is not all that high last I looked at them. Something <100# if I remember right.
I have hung from a sheet bend and it held my 250# just dandy. I've also used that knot in my theatrical rigging for major loads and never had one give way.Even a larkshead would be a step up in my opinion. Just my own thoughts.
Thanks, I read that sheetbends are not as reliable when there is a huge difference between the materials being tied. A wad of material and a 3.8mm cord seems to be quite a bit of difference. I'll whip the ends. You are right about the weakness of the tie wraps although I don't think the pressure is in a direction which would break the tie, but to be safe....
John
Ramblinrev
08-26-2008, 20:07
It is my understanding the sheetbend is used when there _is_ a considerable difference in thickness between the two lines. It has been a long time tho and I could be wrong about that. What _is_ critical is the knot be tied correctly. The trailing ends (loose ends) of each part needs to be on the _same side_ of the knot. In other words,,, the ends should be above each other rather than diagonally aligned. That aspect is not well known but very important. The opposite side configuration is very unstable and can upset easily. The same side alignment is very stable and holds tight. Using a sheet bend would not shorten the hammock to any great degree over what you have there is I picture this correctly. I will sometimes take the precaution of whipping the trailing end to the standing line so that everything remains in one piece .
As was stated above... it is your piece and you need to geel comfortable. If what you have meets your comfort standards... then stay with it.
slowhike
08-26-2008, 20:18
One other thing you might consider is shortening the length of the white cord so the buckles are only a few inches away from the hammock.
That will let you hang between closer trees w/o loosing any length from your hammock.
GrizzlyAdams
08-26-2008, 20:21
just read through this thread.
'though the shouting seems to be over, for what it's worth
RamblinRev is correct in remembering that the sheetbend is used particularly when the ropes involved are of significantly different diameter
The "double" version of the sheetbend is stronger still
The hammock expert par excellence Youngblood has taught this method of attaching suspension to hammock. It was from him on HF anyway that I first heard of the method. I'm trusting Youngblood on that call.
Grizz
just read through this thread.
'though the shouting seems to be over, for what it's worth
RamblinRev is correct in remembering that the sheetbend is used particularly when the ropes involved are of significantly different diameter
The "double" version of the sheetbend is stronger still
The hammock expert par excellence Youngblood has taught this method of attaching suspension to hammock. It was from him on HF anyway that I first heard of the method. I'm trusting Youngblood on that call.
GrizzTold ya!
:p
just read through this thread.
'though the shouting seems to be over, for what it's worth
RamblinRev is correct in remembering that the sheetbend is used particularly when the ropes involved are of significantly different diameter
The "double" version of the sheetbend is stronger still
The hammock expert par excellence Youngblood has taught this method of attaching suspension to hammock. It was from him on HF anyway that I first heard of the method. I'm trusting Youngblood on that call.
Grizz
Sorry, but there was no intention for there to be any shouting. I asked for people's opinions and they were given. I appreciated the input as it will make me rethink the setup. I was merely having a discussion about the different suggestions.
As for the sheet bend, I still remember doing research on this and saw a reference to the knot weakening as the disparity between the 2 ropes grew larger. That is what scared me off from even trying a sheet bend.
So, I'll give it a shot and see how it works out.
John
GrizzlyAdams
08-26-2008, 21:20
forgot the smiley
now that the shouting is over* (:D)
Grizz
*colloquial phrase meaning that some event is over
Youngblood
08-26-2008, 23:11
I just so happens I have been playing around with the AmSteel Blue cord. It makes a great bear line as it slides over tree limbs with very little friction. Knots are another matter. It will slip knots under load that ropes with polyester sheaths will hold with no problem.
Tying knots with it requires a new level of expertize, and that is probably true for any knot under heavy load. I have found that it will drop you if you use a double sheet bend to tie it into the hammock knot. There are a couple of ways that I found that do seem to work but I don't know that they have a name.
Both are a variation of a sheet bend. The last one I tried was a triple sheet bend with both ends of the rope tied off together with a variation of a bow line just outside the hammock knot. The variation to the bow line is to make it slippery and tuck the end of the slip back into the slip loop and cinch down on it, effectively backing up the bow line. When all this is done, it seems to be a secure knot, but I don't have a lot of experience with it. I would recommend backing up any bow line with this slippery rope similarly, and it can be done with a slip loop--- basically a slip loop cinched on a slip loop and it will release if you are careful in how you tie the basic bow line with the 2nd pass inside the first pass though the loop you form when you start tying the knot.
The AmSteel Blue is amazing stuff, but it is very different where knots are concerned... don't forget that! I will slip under heavy load where other rope material won't. And when it does it is sudden, it is gone before you have a clue. You have to rethink your knots.
Just for reference, I had three different knots fail and drop me when I was trying various things. I have used those 3 knots for years on hammocks with webbing and other types of rope without any problems. They initially held and failed suddenly after a few minutes in the hammock. I had stressed them before I got in and thought I had it under control. After the third drop, I tested it by stringing it between the trees as taut as I could so I could get a whole lot more stress on it without getting getting into a hammock. Once I figured out which knots held and which didn't by over stressing the line, I replaced that line because I don't trust it after that.
Youngblood
08-26-2008, 23:17
One other thing with the AmSteel Blue. Fraying is little different with this stuff. I found that cutting it with sharp scissors and using about 1/2 inch of heat shrink tubing on the end works well. I just shrunk it with a lighter. I didn't have much luck with hot cutting or just melting the ends like with other materials. The heat shrink tubing makes the tip stiff and that seems to be a good thing when working with it.
Ramblinrev
08-26-2008, 23:19
Note to self..... what you already knew from experience but is not something you want to forget. And thanks for the Sheet bend information specifically. I don't use that as a matter of course with my Amsteel but I have found I need to tie my bowlines a little differently or the tails will slip.
I had hung on a sheet bend but not with the Amsteel.
GrizzlyAdams
08-26-2008, 23:25
Yep, I've had experience similar to Youngblood's when it comes to knots in Amsteel or Vectran. Amazingly light and strong. Amazingly slippery. Amazing ability to jam up tight on knots that are "supposed" to be easy to untie once load is off.
My current approach to using it for the main suspension is Real Simple. Bowlines at the end of lines hold (but Alpine butterflys in the middle of the rope don't). I always have a stopper knot on the short end of the bowline, Just In Case. So I attach one end of a line using techniques suitable for a rope with a fixed loop at the end. The working end of the cord passes through rings or biners. Round turns with two half-hitches hold (actually when I do this I use 2 round turns as it further takes force off the half-hitches that hold it), and can be undone. Better still is a trucker hitch style attachments, when the anchor for the hitch is a ring, not a loop in the cord. Get a 3:1 thing going on, and there isn't enough force on the end of the cord to cause jams; half-hitches work just fine to tie things off.
Good to know not to trust the stock version of the sheet bend on the hammock body. I'm a bit surprised by that actually, but maybe I shouldn't be given the other places I've seen that kind of cord behave in unexpected ways.
Grizz
jeffjenn
08-26-2008, 23:34
Do the Amsteel like cords hold double fishermans knots well. If so couldn't a loop be made with the fishermans knot, then prussiked to the rings & larks headed to the hammock? I guess if the fishermans knot works the larks head on the hammock is the next question of slipping.
warbonnetguy
08-26-2008, 23:52
i've used the stuff a good bit. you can use a larks head on the end of the hammock.
while a double sheetbend slips when tied to raw hammock fabric, tying the single braid dyneema to your tree straps with a slipped double sheetbend works great, and i've been tying directly to a single steel ring on the end of a tree strap with a slipped buntline hitch with great success.
we are talking about 2 different setups here. a larks head can be used to quickly connect and disconnect line from the suspension point. the suspension point needs to have some sort of ballish mass to jam in the back of the hitch though. the mass can be created a number of ways. standard whipping, cinching and tying off a threaded hem, zip tie etc., but the sheetbend method does not require this end mass, you are tying the fabric and the line together just like if you were tying 2 lines together.
warbonnetguy
08-27-2008, 00:27
youngblood, if i wanted to try heat shrink tubing, could i get it locally at say home depot, or do you oder it online?
Ramblinrev
08-27-2008, 00:55
some is listed in Radio Shack's on-line shop. I would not be surprised if they carried it. It is often used for protecting wire joints. Automotive places will use it for wiring harnesses as well. It should be easy to find.
All good advise.
I did not experience any issues with the Double Fishermans knot. Once it all tightened up there was no further movement.
I did try the sheet bend with the hammock material and used the fishermans knot to "lock" the bend in place so that the tag end cannot slip out of the knot. I haven't hung from it though but will set it up this morning and give it a try. Here's a pic showing the sheet bend.
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=15&pictureid=90
I also cut this rope with a hot knife and at first glance, it looked like it worked, now that I examine the cut ends, you can see where it is starting to fray. The factory cut ends appear to have been cut with a hot knife though and they appear to be fine. I'll try the heat shrink tubing.
John
Ramblinrev
08-27-2008, 06:56
I have found that if I really put the lighter flame to the amsteel it will bubble up and melt decently, but it really needs to be held there for a while comparatively.
I have to get a book on knots
warbonnetguy
08-27-2008, 07:55
mrprez, good idea using the double fishermen's as a stopper knot to keep the sheetbend from slipping.
Youngblood
08-27-2008, 08:10
Brandon,
I have heat shrink tubing in my old tool boxes but I found some hobbyist quantity heat shrink tubing in the electrical department at my Home Depot. It is 3/8" polyolefin Heat Shrink Tubing and it comes in a small package with a half dozen or so 4" pieces. That is plenty for a hobbyist to play around with this and you only need about 1/2" pieces. I don't remember the exact price but I think it is a dollar or so. It looks good and the tip being stiff is probably a bigger plus than it is a minus. You will appreciate it when inserting it into the loops of tree huggers.
Here are few photos of what I did. The first two photos are front and back of the triple sheet bend. The third one is a partial explosion of the backed up bow line.
The bow line is tied off about as close to the hammock knot as I felt I could and still equalize the loading on both ends of the sheet bend. If you notice, that modified sheet bend cinches the knot from both ends, you are taking advantage of the slickness of the rope and letting it work for you. That hammock has been loaded and the rope stretches when it is initially loaded. Also, when the knot tightens up you can get some more rope. What I am getting at is that I tied the bow line closer to the hammock knot than where it ends up after the hammock has been loaded-- you want to tie it closer that what you see in that picture to end up with it as close as you would like. If it is too far away I worry that you will risk the triple sheet bend loosening up during handling and storing. If you tie the bow line off close to the hammock knot, it looks to be a solid knot... so far.:)
I backed up that 'slippery bow line' without the final knot being slippery. I did that because that is not a knot I figure on untying. When I use a bow line on the other end of the hammock suspension line to tie it to a tree hugger, I do it a little differently so the final knot is slippery. To do that you just put another loop into the normal slippery bow line loop and cinch it up instead of the end of the cord.
GrizzlyAdams
08-27-2008, 08:50
i've used the stuff a good bit. you can use a larks head on the end of the hammock.
while a double sheetbend slips when tied to raw hammock fabric, tying the single braid dyneema to your tree straps with a slipped double sheetbend works great,
You know I tried that once with the Vectran I have, and the loop around the slipped bight had jammed so tightly I very nearly couldn't get the slip pulled out. However, owing to RamblinRev's observation about the properness of "direction" in sheetbends, I did a bit of research and discovered to my horror that my muscle memory for the knot does it the wrong way. After all these years...so perhaps that is a contributing factor to this jam.
and i've been tying directly to a single steel ring on the end of a tree strap with a slipped buntline hitch with great success.
Had to look up buntline hitch. "Oh" sez I, "One of _those_". Well if that works for your one ring at the end of tree webbing, it ought to work for the biner I have at the end of my hammock (the other end of my suspension cord is looped over a Marlinspike hitch at the tree). And if it does, then I can do without the ring I put on the cord to make an anchor point for a trucker's hitch. Gonna give it try next time I get to hang...
I wonder if this tinkering ever ends?
Grizz
headchange4u
08-27-2008, 08:56
Do the Amsteel like cords hold double fishermans knots well. If so couldn't a loop be made with the fishermans knot, then prussiked to the rings & larks headed to the hammock? I guess if the fishermans knot works the larks head on the hammock is the next question of slipping.
I am using Amsteel Blue in my SLS with the fisherman's knot on the piece of cord on the hammock and they have held just fine.
OK, so went out this morning and strung up the hammock. Everything worked just fine. I did lose about 6" in length of the hammock bed, but once I was in there I found that the length is pretty good for me. The sides of the hammock aren't tight at all and I can actually see out both sides!
I don't think I would trust the sheet bend with this type of cord without a stopper knot though. Using the fishermans knot as a stopper gives me a secure feeling though. I examined all the knots after swinging awhile and did not notice any movement whatsoever. Naturally, whenever you tie up your hammock a quick inspection of all knots and cords should be done prior to getting in! I've been on the ground enough times already...
I am quite happy with the results, thanks for all the input.
John
Ramblinrev
08-27-2008, 09:57
MrPrez... as to the sheetbend... I would agree with you after hearing from Youngblood and others about the quirks of amsteel blue. I wouldn't trust it by itself either now. That is because of the rope quirks tho... not the knot itself. Ain't technology a grand thing. And no... the tinkering never stops. Mostly cause when it does.... we find something else to tinker with.
What a bunch of knotheads. :D:p
I have to get a book on knotsLearn them like I did. Holding your breath underwater in the dark doing them. Thank the Marines for that. :D
Cannibal
08-27-2008, 22:24
Learn them like I did. Holding your breath underwater in the dark doing them. Thank the Marines for that. :D
Well, that certainly explains why we were so busy in the Coast Guard. :p:D
Learn them like I did. Holding your breath underwater in the dark doing them. Thank the Marines for that. :D
Jarhead knotheads! :p:D
GrizzlyAdams
08-28-2008, 20:23
i've used the stuff a good bit. you can use a larks head on the end of the hammock.
while a double sheetbend slips when tied to raw hammock fabric, tying the single braid dyneema to your tree straps with a slipped double sheetbend works great, and i've been tying directly to a single steel ring on the end of a tree strap with a slipped buntline hitch with great success.
So WBG, I had my hammock out this evening to try the buntline hitch. I was careful to tie it exactly as shown on several sites, with the exception of slipping it in the usual way by putting a bight through on the last step rather than the working end.
I did this both on some pretty worn Vectran 12, and some brand new 1/8" Amsteel Blue. In both cases it took quite a bit of tugging to pull the slipped bight through. Really rather more than I'd want to have to deal with every time I adjusted the length. Is there a trick I should know that loosens up the loop around the bight a little before pulling it out?
Grizz