PDA

View Full Version : amsteel vs dyeema



Elessar
08-21-2012, 13:25
I'm still reading, studying, designing, and planning. I've bought a budget hammock to begin my research and experimentation, but I continue to run up against new things like the difference between Amsteel & Dyeema.

Can someone here please lay out the difference between these two lines?

Hiknhanger
08-21-2012, 13:31
Amsteel is a product name for cordage made with dyneema fibers, so Amsteel is dyneema. It can be quite confusing!

WV
08-21-2012, 13:39
Dyneema is a product name for cordage made with high molecular weight polyethylene fibers. So is Amsteel. It can be quite confusing! The coatings on the manufactured ropes may be slightly different, but they are essentially the same stuff.

Elessar
08-21-2012, 13:52
Ooooo, I'm gettin' educated now. Thanx y'all.

BER
08-21-2012, 13:54
Amsteel is a brand name for Samson cord made of high-modulus polyethylene (HMPE)--also known as Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene (UHMWPE)

Dyneema is the trade name for UHMWPE made by the DSM company in the Netherlands.

Spectra is the trade name of UHMWPE made by Allied Signal/Honeywell International Inc in the USA. Dyneema was initially licensed to Allied Signal by DSM to be manufactured in the USA and the name was changed.

Samson, New England Ropes, Yale Cordage, and other rope companies use Dyneema or Spectra fiber and then make their ropes with their own brand name (such as Amsteel, Dynaglide, Endura-12, Maxibraid, Ultrex, etc) Many of them are available in different diameters depending on the required specs. Some minor differences in coatings.

Hiknhanger
08-21-2012, 13:57
Amsteel is a brand name for Samson Ropes cord made of high-modulus polyethylene (HMPE)--also known as Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene (UHMWPE)

Dyneema is the trade name for UHMWPE made by the DSM company in the Netherlands.

Spectra is the trade name of UHMWPE made by Honeywell International Inc in the USA

What he said. I retract my earlier statement!

BER
08-21-2012, 14:14
What he said. I retract my earlier statement!

No, you were entirely correct. Samson uses Dyneema SK-75 fiber to make their Amsteel.

BER
08-21-2012, 14:35
Most commonly used cords here on HF:

Amsteel Blue: Made by Samson of Dyneema SK-75. 12 strand and spliceable. Available in multiple colors and diameters.

Dynaglide: Made by New England Ropes using Dyneema SK-75. Also 12 strand and spliceable. Only available in bright orange and green with slick/waxy coating. Only available in 2mm diameter. STS-12-75 (also made by NE Ropes) is a similar 2mm cord to Dynaglide but with a different coating more like Amsteel.

Lash-it/Zing-it: Made by Samson of Dyneema. I believe only 8 strand (might be wrong here). Spliceable. Only two diameters each (1.8 and 2.2mm). Lash-it is gray. Zing-it is yellow. Neither has a strength rating with a high enough safety rating for hammock hanging, but both are good for tarp lines and such.


Each of these cords are sold by multiple vendors.

Jiffiboy
08-21-2012, 18:07
How do you know all this dude?

MAD777
08-21-2012, 18:20
How do you know all this dude?

He's a hammock geek! :lol:

Hang around here for awhile and you will be, too!

Elessar
08-21-2012, 18:38
Seems like this is THE place to hang out! hahaha

SweetLou
08-21-2012, 19:22
Dynaglide: Made by New England Ropes using Dyneema SK-75. Also 12 strand and spliceable. Only available in bright orange and green with slick/waxy coating. Only available in 2mm diameter. STS-12-75 (also made by NE Ropes) is a similar 2mm cord to Dynaglide but with a different coating more like Amsteel.

Lash-it/Zing-it: Made by Samson of Dyneema. I believe only 8 strand (might be wrong here). Spliceable. Only two diameters each (1.8 and 2.2mm). Lash-it is gray. Zing-it is yellow. Neither has a strength rating with a high enough safety rating for hammock hanging, but both are good for tarp lines and such.
If both Lash-it and Dynaglide are made of the same material, why is the 2.2 mm Lash-it so much weaker than the 2mm Dynaglide?

swankfly
08-21-2012, 19:37
More strands?

BER
08-21-2012, 20:15
If both Lash-it and Dynaglide are made of the same material, why is the 2.2 mm Lash-it so much weaker than the 2mm Dynaglide?

Dude, I don't know everything! :laugh:
I suspect that it is because dynaglide has more strands and is pre stretched before coating. But that's a guess.

Nighthauk
08-21-2012, 20:16
Dynaglide also comes in a 1.8mm diameter and has a 1000lbs capacity.

BER
08-21-2012, 20:19
How do you know all this dude?

I wanted a cord like dynaglide, but without the bright color. So I looked at a lot of rope companies, did a lot of reading online. Sometimes I get a bit obsessed...:lol:

BER
08-21-2012, 20:29
Dynaglide also comes in a 1.8mm diameter and has a 1000lbs capacity.

New England Ropes only lists 2mm dynaglide on their website: here (http://www.neropes.com/product.aspx?mid=AD5A655BCA5BFA2A6B340F8F4F462C5D&lid=3&pid=94). I have also seen some vendors list it at 1.8mm, but I think it is the same thing. NER actually lists it as 1/16" (2mm), but 1/16"=1.5875mm. I think there is some liberal rounding, as our brother Demostix has pointed out in other threads.

SweetLou
08-21-2012, 20:31
Dude, I don't know everything! :laugh:
I suspect that it is because dynaglide has more strands and is pre stretched before coating. But that's a guess.
Well, that's it! I am going to a different forum :D Just kidding, I like it here too much.

Nighthauk
08-21-2012, 20:38
This what I saw from a company that I order arborist equipment from. http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Throw-Lines/DynaGlide-Throwline-1-8mm

DemostiX
08-22-2012, 07:16
If both Lash-it and Dynaglide are made of the same material, why is the 2.2 mm Lash-it so much weaker than the 2mm Dynaglide?

Zing It 2.2mm weighs 2.8 oz per 100 ft Claimed bs 580-650 lb
Dynaglide weights 2.6 oz per 100ft Claimed bs 1000 lb
The 1.8mmZing-It weighs one third less, and has a breaking strength of 1/3 less.

Could be fraction of low-strength coating on the Zing-It is higher. These are throw-lines, optimized for arborists shooting bags through leaves without snagging.

In fact, the strength per weight of Lash-It (and Zing-it) is lower than for other Samson Amsteel Blue products. The claimed bs / wt ratio of Dynaglide is in line with other NE Ropes products of larger sizes

Dyneema has a higher breaking strength (bs) if it has been "pre-stretched", which both gets constructional looseness out, and results in about a 10% increase in ultimate bs. Field stressing the cord to 50% of its ultimate BS does this. One seller of high-peformance cordage claims to do this to the fiber itself.

Eight years ago Samson issued a technical paper on the cordage of a then- competitor, Puget Sound Ropes (PS). All of PS Dyneema-based line was rated as much stronger than comparable Samson line by 20%. "Pre-stretching" was how PS claimed to have done it. Samson engineers were surprised that high BS was achieved with SK-75 fiber.Then, they were not surprised when the testing turned to fatigue resistance. In fact all Dyneema-based line gets stronger after some use, about 10% stronger if stressed to 50% of its breaking strength, so there is something to pre-stressing. But, all line wears out, gets fatigued. The Samson testing showed the PS line to suffer fatigue failure much earlier than their own Amsteel rope. Commercial users were not much longer interested in cordage with a shorter life and Puget Sound Ropes isn't around any longer.

Mundele
08-22-2012, 08:26
Most commonly used cords here on HF:

Amsteel Blue: Made by Samson of Dyneema SK-75. 12 strand and spliceable. Available in multiple colors and diameters.

Dynaglide: Made by New England Ropes using Dyneema SK-75. Also 12 strand and spliceable. Only available in bright orange and green with slick/waxy coating. Only available in 2mm diameter. STS-12-75 (also made by NE Ropes) is a similar 2mm cord to Dynaglide but with a different coating more like Amsteel.

Lash-it/Zing-it: Made by Samson of Dyneema. I believe only 8 strand (might be wrong here). Spliceable. Only two diameters each (1.8 and 2.2mm). Lash-it is gray. Zing-it is yellow. Neither has a strength rating with a high enough safety rating for hammock hanging, but both are good for tarp lines and such.


Each of these cords are sold by multiple vendors.

This post should be a sticky! Itd be great if it listed typical use (I.e. which are best for whoopie slings and in what diameters, etc)

BER
08-22-2012, 09:18
I knew that if we whispered his name, Demostix would appear and give us a more technical answer. I thought I was obsessed with cord for a while, but he...:)


This post should be a sticky! Itd be great if it listed typical use (I.e. which are best for whoopie slings and in what diameters, etc)

Any of the single braid dyneema cords can be used to make whoopies and a variety of other spliced creations. It is merely a matter of looking at the breaking strength of each product and picking the right one based on the expected use (load), and a factored safety rating (many here use 5x load as the safety factor for hammock suspensions, though you could argue to use a higher rating if you were hanging from heights or using these cords for some other critical safety application).

In general, most here use dynaglide, 7/64" amsteel, or 1/8" amsteel for hammock suspensions, dependent on their own weight and perceived comfort in the safety factor. The breaking strength increases in that same order, as does the cord weight and bulkiness. Unless you are really trying to shave grams from your pack weight, there is little benefit to using dynaglide over 7/64" amsteel.

Lash-it/Zing-it are usually reserved for non-weight bearing applications such as tarp lines, accessory cords, and sometimes ridgelines.

hppyfngy
08-22-2012, 09:45
I knew that if we whispered his name, Demostix would appear and give us a more technical answer. I thought I was obsessed with cord for a while, but he...:)


I was gonna say man... You uttered the name! :lol:

Demostix, you're a treasure. ;)

DemostiX
08-22-2012, 11:40
Not to provoke too much concern for fatigue wear: Most of this stuff is used in the fishing industry, where stress is constant and cordage is being passed over drums and around turnstiles....... for a few years before replacement.

On safety: Safety is safety. Personally, I'd spend a night or even a whole trip hanging in my hammock from my 400lb bs guy lines, if the choice were that or trying to sleep on the ground. (Of course, thin as they are, I'd take care to see the lines didn't cut anything. I also would not hang over rocks, and I would not cut the margin even further by tying knots, so I'd have to do some field splicing.)

But, I don't commend this (mild) recklessness to anyone else.
-----------

For this thread, even though I've noted this elsewhere:

You can calculate actual and volume savings in not having "excessive" strength or wanting more of it, or more safety, and then decide on the value to you.

These Dyneema-constructed cords have almost the density of water, once they have been in use. They may start hollow and with spaces between the strands, but all of that goes away.

There are 2 tablespoons to an ounce...by weight as well as volume for water.......or this cordage. Saving an ounce =saving 2 tablespoons.

Look at the ounces of cord you might use, say 5.4oz of a full 100 feet of Amsteel Blue 2.5mm / 7/64 with a BS of 1600lb. (That's < $25 worth.)

Because bs is approximately proportional to volume of cord, what you are going to save by substituting can be immediately calculated. And you can compare it to, say, your 2700 cu in back pack capacity.

For example: Make 50 ft of that cordage thin Lash It instead of 7/64, and you'll save 1/2 X 3/4 (that's the saving for 400lb bs cord -- 1200- 3/4 of 1600) x 5.4 oz...........2oz = 4 tablespoons.

Or, going the other way: Compare the cost and suffering of losing 50 lb --dieting, giving up beer, gastric bypass surgery, all new clothes (except hats and shoes and socks) vs the burden of heavier 1/8" / 3mm Amsteel Blue whoopie slings. What's an extra 1/2 oz of barely chunkier but still lean & mean Amsteel Blue when you are already carrying an extra 800 ounces of hydrated fat?
-----------
Yes, I have a table I've assembled of much of the thin hi-zoot cordage sold. If I knew the numbers were close to correct, I'd post it.
----------------

For now, and for hangers of the Commonwealth and EU: Stein Safety's orange throw line seems to be the same stuff as Dynaglide. Exact same construction and specs.
----------

Finally, something about price. For Amsteel Blue from our friends at Redden Marine and from those who will price match: Price seems to be pretty much proportional to amount = weight of cordage. A problem I admit to having with Dynaglide is that its price is outside that price/quantity envelope, and then there's waste and burden of 180' lengths. (from many, not all vendors.)

Oper8or
08-22-2012, 11:42
All of this info stuffed into my head just killed about 20 braincells. My head hurts and now I need a beer. You guys are Hammock geeks as I am a Systems geek. I am an inspiring Hammock geek. I'm working on it. I think the thing we run into is that this forum is very diverse. Many people in many walks of life who have so much knowledge about different things. My interview is over. It went great, then I get smacked in the face by numbers and related facts to cordage that makes me rethink my ENTIRE ridgeline strength (other than my hammock suspension which is on par).

Now my head really hurts. I'm going to go hang my hammock from my 7/64 amsteel and my ratchet straps with toggles. Time to relax. :shades:

hppyfngy
08-22-2012, 11:45
DemostiX, How do you sleep at night? :D

gmcttr
08-22-2012, 11:51
...Amsteel Blue: Made by Samson of Dyneema SK-75. 12 strand and spliceable. Available in multiple colors and diameters....

Just a small correction so no one gets confused when they get 7/64" Amsteel Blue. 7/64" Amsteel Blue is 8 strand. 1/8" and up is 12 Strand.

Oper8or
08-22-2012, 11:52
All of this info stuffed into my head just killed about 20 braincells. My head hurts and now I need a beer. You guys are Hammock geeks as I am a Systems geek. I am an inspiring Hammock geek. I'm working on it. I think the thing we run into is that this forum is very diverse. Many people in many walks of life who have so much knowledge about different things. My interview is over. It went great, then I get smacked in the face by numbers and related facts to cordage that makes me rethink my ENTIRE ridgeline strength (other than my hammock suspension which is on par).

Now my head really hurts. I'm going to go hang my hammock from my 7/64 amsteel and my ratchet straps with toggles. Time to relax. :shades:

OMG. By the time I made my other post DemostiX posted with more info. So now my 7/64 isnt on par??? Sigh. Considering I've spent the money and taken the time to make my whoopies, I'm not changing them anytime soon. Cost, cost, cost.

Here's the jist: I'm 5'1 and 170LBS. So according to the factoid numbers the 7/64 should be good for me as long as I dont tie knots in it. Correct? Well I now run into an issue. I've posted pics of how I extended my hammock to increase the flat area of it. I used a loop over lock with two eye splices. This isnt exactly a knot per-say, but I'm sure it decreases the stregth somehow. At this point I'll just pray and jump on my hammock really hard and see what happens. I'm going to do this in a safe environment of course. Time to head into the yard and play! I love it when someone gives me an excuse to stress equipment. Just like one of my sons said my backpack couldnt hold my weight if I hung myself by the pack. WRONG. My osprey atmos held just fine. Although I did have to use a ladder to get down. :lol:

BER
08-22-2012, 11:56
Just a small correction so no one gets confused when they get 7/64" Amsteel Blue. 7/64" Amsteel Blue is 8 strand. 1/8" and up is 12 Strand.

Oops, yes, you are correct. Sorry.

DemostiX
08-22-2012, 18:41
OMG. By the time I made my other post DemostiX posted with more info. So now my 7/64 isnt on par??? Sigh. Considering I've spent the money and taken the time to make my whoopies, I'm not changing them anytime soon. Cost, cost, cost.

Here's the jist: I'm 5'1 and 170LBS. So according to the factoid numbers the 7/64 should be good for me as long as I dont tie knots in it. Correct?
<snip>


Right. The 7/64" / 2.5mm Amsteel Blue cord is at a sweet spot, Split a 200lb load in half between two hammock ends and 100lb is near the recommended load factor for cordage as a fraction of breaking strength (16 to 1 average, 14 to 1 minimum wrt the cord strength.)

Further, usual load factors always anticipate termination losses from knots -- a rope not connected to anything is useless. Most everyone here follows best practice in splicing terminations for serious weight bearing-- that is in the hammock suspension-- so instead of 30-50% expected strength losses from the get-go, there may be no more than 10% loss from that source..

Elessar
09-07-2012, 15:01
OMG, I never thought my simple question would yield so much information as to create more work. Now, I have to learn splicing and knots and stuff. Holy crap! Better get busy searching for threads of reference.

saniun
09-07-2012, 15:30
I wonder how light weight you could get with a hammock made of dyneema.

SilvrSurfr
09-07-2012, 15:53
This what I saw from a company that I order arborist equipment from. http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Throw-Lines/DynaGlide-Throwline-1-8mm

Geez, I wish you hadn't posted that link. I scrolled down the left side and saw red Zing-It 1.75 mm. I've never seen red - now I have to order some.

SandmanBravo
05-14-2017, 04:34
I have recently re-read this. Lot's of great info here regardless of your level of experience.

Scouter_Ken
05-15-2017, 16:45
my general rules of thumb for dyeema:

1. Use zingit/lashit for structural ridgeline if you are under 250lbs otherwise use dynaglide. But, beware that at some point in the future a structural ridgeline using zing-it will fail. usually on the 2nd night of a 5 day backpacking trip so use dynaglide or don't place your hammock over sharp rocks or sticks.
2. Use Zingit for tarp ridgelines as it is very lightweight and will never get near the 500lb breaking point when used properly.
3. Use Amsteel for anything that will require direct weight bearing capacity. Things like whoopie slings, continuous loops for end of hammock, etc.

GadgetUK437
05-15-2017, 23:53
a structural ridgeline using zing-it will fail. usually on the 2nd night of a 5 day backpacking trip so use dynaglide or don't place your hammock over sharp rocks
So, have you ever been put on the ground by a failing SRL?
Whenever I've had one fail, I've gone up, not down!


--
Gadget

Wetfoot310
05-19-2017, 21:20
Most commonly used cords here on HF:

Amsteel Blue: Made by Samson of Dyneema SK-75. 12 strand and spliceable. Available in multiple colors and diameters.

Dynaglide: Made by New England Ropes using Dyneema SK-75. Also 12 strand and spliceable. Only available in bright orange and green with slick/waxy coating. Only available in 2mm diameter. STS-12-75 (also made by NE Ropes) is a similar 2mm cord to Dynaglide but with a different coating more like Amsteel.

Lash-it/Zing-it: Made by Samson of Dyneema. I believe only 8 strand (might be wrong here). Spliceable. Only two diameters each (1.8 and 2.2mm). Lash-it is gray. Zing-it is yellow. Neither has a strength rating with a high enough safety rating for hammock hanging, but both are good for tarp lines and such.


Each of these cords are sold by multiple vendors.

Thanks for the great info man!