Super Shelter DUH moment

[BillyBob58]

For any new Super Shelter users, or any old hands that might be interested:

There have been several HHSS threads going on lately. As well as other threads about bags/pads or keeping warm in which the SS has been part of the discussion. This has coincided with me having my HHSS hung up in the back yard. I have not fooled with my SS much in the last year, as I have been concentrating on new stuff and dif approaches like PeaPod and WBUQ. Both of which are GREAT gear, no doubt about it. But when I got back from my Rocky Mountain trip, I had a strange desire to go back and play around with the horse that brung me, so to speak. Back to the basics I started with on a Rocky Mountain trip 2 years ago, the start of my hammock learning curve. HHSS with stock tarp. So that is what I have been mostly doing, just for fun.

But today I made a simple discovery, so simple I felt silly about how often I had stuggled with the related problem. So FWIW for any SS users who might have had this problem:

There have been more than one thread discussing a problem with the SS, a problem correctly positioning the pad. I ( and others) have reported problems with the pad having a tendency to go to the right side of the hammock, while our upper bodies, being diagonally to the left, have minimal coverage on that left shoulder/side. While there is excess coverage over on the right where we don't need it, where I am not laying against the hammock, compressing the quilts insulation. It can be quite irritating. And I think this problem is really at the root of the complaints that some have of the HH pad not being wide enough. Because the Explorer pad is 35" wide, and that ought to be enough for most.

So, when others a while back complained of this also, I posted some of my ideas to deal with this. It mainly consisted of quadrupling ( as HH recommends) the elastics, and wrapping it around and through the various UP loops and UC openings and then applying considerable leftward tension to the side guy outs. And maybe pulling it way out to the left before applying any tension to the right. Sometimes this would help, and sometimes it didn't.

Well, I was having a bit of this ( relatively minor) problem today. Some how I got the idea to try this: as I sat down in the bottom opening, I would reach down and out the opening, grab the pad and pull it over to the left, and then lay down. This seemed to really work: when I would lay back, the pad was well to my left, no problem. But, it was pretty difficult to grab the pad this way, because there was a lot of tension on the opening and my legs once I was sitting down. It was not easy to get hold of it.

But then, more or less by accident, the major DUH moment occurred. I went ahead and pulled my legs inside, and for some reason, while semi-sitting, I decided to reach back out the opening to adjust the space blanket or something. That's when it occurred to me to also grab the pad ( easy to do in this fashion), push down on it to get it around the low point ( my butt), and pull it to the left. Which was easy to do, whatever distance I desired. And once it is moved, with the hammock weighted, it curves around my body and stays put. For probably the first time, when I laid down now the pad was curved around my body, well up above my left shoulder and side. Actually, curved about equally around both shoulders, but plenty of coverage on the left, at last.

OK, Duh, it only took me 2 years to come up with this. I'm a little slow. :blush: It would be nice if this suggestion was part of the user directions. It is not a big deal, but maybe it will help some new user get adequate left shoulder coverage. Anyway, it's working for me. I can forget about all of the super side guy out elastic tension tricks. In fact, I'm pretty sure this pad will now stay where I need it even without the side tie outs( I'll try it tomorrow). It is pretty grippy, and once it is curved around my body, I don't think it is going anywhere.

So, FWIW.

EDIT: I forgot to give this warning:
That HH pad is probably about the most fragile piece of outdoor equip you will even work wit, in case you didn't already know this! When you reach through the bottom opening and move it, you are going to have to be very gentle, or you will likely poke a hole in the pad. It is probably best to grab it near the edges and try to avoid putting much pressure on it with your finger tips. It is probablt still a significant risk if you are trying to do this through the zipper mod. The pad is quite "grippy", and it will attempt to adhere to the bottom of the weighted hammock as you try to move it. Pushing or better yet pulling down will get around this "gripping, but again caution is required- if you push with your finger tips it may well puncture right through.

The good news is that I have poked several holes in mine over 2 years, and it is no big deal as far as function( does look ugly!). Until you can patch it, just approximate the edges of the holes, they will usually stay pretty close together, and I doubt it noticeably effects insulation. When you are ready to fix it, just approximate the edges with a little tape on one side, then a dab of seam sealer on the other. Once dry, good as new, just a bit uglier!

[FishBone]

Thanks for the INSIGHT BillyBob.

I was testing a HHSS Upad (Explorer size) on my ULBA with JRB weather shield, instead of the SS, this weekend at the MidTN hang-out. (I wanted more shoulder coverage than the smaller pad.) I had a similar moment, when I was able to reach out of the hammock (w/2Q zip mod #2) and pull the underpad into the desired position for my feet or shoulders. Slept well with underpad/space blanket combo to the mid-40's (I'm a cold sleeper.) with a JRB N'Sniveler on top. (poly longjohns, smartwool/MicroPuff, sox, balaclava completed the ensemble:boggle:).

I had to tweak the pad a bit at the head end to narrow it up for better fit. (Yes, LOST, I did find some hair pins.:cool:) Once I get it dialed in, I'll sew it up for a permanent solution. I already had to add side loops to match the smaller hammock and a grosgrain reinforcement across the bottom to tie the loops together to mimic the original layout. I really like the wider pad; I think it will be my 2-season go-to arrangement; only 12 oz w/stuff sack.

See you down the trail!

[BillyBob58]

Thanks for the INSIGHT BillyBob.

I was testing a HHSS Upad (Explorer size) on my ULBA with JRB weather shield, instead of the SS, this weekend at the MidTN hang-out. (I wanted more shoulder coverage than the smaller pad.) I had a similar moment, when I was able to reach out of the hammock (w/2Q zip mod #2) and pull the underpad into the desired position for my feet or shoulders. Slept well with underpad/space blanket combo to the mid-40's (I'm a cold sleeper.) with a JRB N'Sniveler on top. (poly longjohns, smartwool/MicroPuff, sox, balaclava completed the ensemble:boggle:).

I had to tweak the pad a bit at the head end to narrow it up for better fit. (Yes, LOST, I did find some hair pins.:cool:) Once I get it dialed in, I'll sew it up for a permanent solution. I already had to add side loops to match the smaller hammock and a grosgrain reinforcement across the bottom to tie the loops together to mimic the original layout. I really like the wider pad; I think it will be my 2-season go-to arrangement; only 12 oz w/stuff sack.

See you down the trail!

All right, another SS convert, at least partially! What made you decide to try this route?

A cold sleeper does mid 40s on first try with a HH OCF pad! Not all that shabby, really. I had wondered if people could use the wider pad with the ULBP, with the lengths being different ( hammock length anyway). But I figured if it would fit length wise, that the extra width would be well worth it. I don't know why HH makes the pad for the ULBP more narrow. Is there even much difference in the width of an Explorer and a ULBP? ( Must be if you had to tweak it) But I doubt the undercover could be made to fit, it would be too long I suspect.

As I have been fooling around with the SS again, I kept thinking how handy 2Qs zipper mod would be. For the purpose of adjusting the pad left to right, as you mentioned. And even more so for checking the suspension adjustments for 1:any gaps and 2: any compression of the pad or of a down vest or whatever that you might choose to put on top of the OCF pad. Then you could either tighten or loosen the prussick as needed. I am very close to having this mod done, for this reason and others.


Glad to hear you went for the SB right off the bat. Did you have any significant condensation on/from the SB, which got inside the hammock?

I sure do hate that I missed that Mid Tenn hang out. I knew I was missing a good time. Although, I don't regret missing Neo's tick experience! :scared:

[FishBone]

What made you decide to try this route?
* Lighter weight; 12 oz w/Upad + stuff sack vs. 20 oz for N'Sniveler alone (mid-40 deg. capability, also, for me.) Projected use is 2 1/2 seasons w/N'Sniveler or Shennandoah as TopQuilt. Had significant condensation issues w/N'Sniveler coupled with the weather shield. Also, I got the pad cheap as part of their October discount sale; only $20, so it was worth the experiment.

Is there even much difference in the width of an Explorer and a ULBP?
* I don't think there's much difference (I don't own an Explorer) in the width of the hammocks, just the location of the side tie-outs - farther apart, length-wise, on the larger hammock. I had to sew shorter tie-outs "inside" of the stock tie-outs on the pad and add a reinforcement grosgrain to take the "load" on the Upad from the side tie-outs.

Did you have any significant condensation on the SB?
* very, very slight condensation.

Later.

[BillyBob58]

Please see cautionary edit to the first post, re: a caution I forgot to mention.

[kwpapke]

...grab the pad ( easy to do in this fashion), push down on it to get it around the low point ( my butt), and pull it to the left. Which was easy to do, whatever distance I desired. And once it is moved, with the hammock weighted, it curves around my body and stays put
....
That HH pad is probably about the most fragile piece of outdoor equip you will even work wit
I have always done something similar to this to get the pad and SB properly positioned and flat down by my feet.

What I don't quite grok yet is the problem up at the shoulder level. My OCF pad has always from Day 1 wrapped properly around my left shoulder -- I've never had a problem with the shoulder being too far to the right. I have the Explorer-sized (wider) pad. What size do you have? Do you maybe have an older version?

As to the fragility, I have spent about 50 nights in my HH/SS this year, carrying it 200+ miles. I have only one small hole in the OCF pad caused by a sharp stick poke that occurred when I was scrambling over a tree that fell over the trail. I carry my OCF pad outside my pack in a Sea-to-summit WP sac in my pack's pad straps where it is vulnerable, maybe not a good idea.

--Kurt

[kwpapke]

* Lighter weight; 12 oz w/Upad + stuff sack vs. 20 oz for N'Sniveler alone ... Also, I got the pad cheap as part of their October discount sale; only $20, so it was worth the experiment.
Yep, pound-for-pound and $-for-$ its tough to beat the SS+SB combo.

I wish I had seen the $20 discount -- I would have picked up a 2nd OCF pad at that price just to see how cold 2x pads could go. I just checked the Odds and Ends list, and no SS components listed :crying

--Kurt

[BillyBob58]

I have always done something similar to this to get the pad and SB properly positioned and flat down by my feet.

What I don't quite grok yet is the problem up at the shoulder level. My OCF pad has always from Day 1 wrapped properly around my left shoulder -- I've never had a problem with the shoulder being too far to the right. I have the Explorer-sized (wider) pad. What size do you have? Do you maybe have an older version?

As to the fragility, I have spent about 50 nights in my HH/SS this year, carrying it 200+ miles. I have only one small hole in the OCF pad caused by a sharp stick poke that occurred when I was scrambling over a tree that fell over the trail. I carry my OCF pad outside my pack in a Sea-to-summit WP sac in my pack's pad straps where it is vulnerable, maybe not a good idea.

--Kurt

Mine never really has, it has always been a bit to the right. A few others a while back had the same problem. And some others have complained about the pads not being wide enough. Which i suspect is related to the poor positioning. Mine is the 35" wide explorer pad, and it is a bit over 2 years old.

Not that it has ever been a really big problem for me. It has still probably been far enough to the left to get the job done. But it could be better, and is better when I reposition in this fashion.

You are probably a lot more careful than me. The holes in mine have been from toes and fingers. I have had 2 or 3 over a 2 year period. Doesn't concern me much ( except the first time I did it), as it is easily fixed. But whether we get the holes or not, there is no doubt that sucker is super fragile. i can't think of any other piece of gear that would be easier to tear. But as long as I am aware of that, it is not a significant problem. I'm still using the same 2 year old pad.

My kidney and torso pads, OTOH, don't have a single nick in them. And until I bought the heat sheet a few weeks ago, I was still using my $2 WM SB from 2 years ago. It was as new except for wrinkles.

[hikingjer]

Last night I slept in the backyard in a HH Backpacker A-sym, stock tarp, with a Super Shelter (SS) on a Vario Byer stand. I used a 25 degree rated North Face down bag, a 3/4 length Z-Rest foam pad with a down vest under my feet. I wore a fleece sweater and balaclava, blue jeans and Thor-Lo socks. I was warm enough most of the night (but never toasty) except at 4 am when the temp bottomed out. The low temps woke me up but I wasn't cold, just not warm at all.

It dropped down to about 35 degrees at 4 am and it was very moist with 98% relative humidity measured at the airport. There was no wind. The condensation was brutal. The stock tarp let a few drops down on to the hammock bug net but the down bag stayed dry. The high RH may have collapsed the down bag's loft a little (?).

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I've always had more of a problem getting the space blanket to stay in place in the SS than the pad. If anybody has any suggestions on keeping the space blanket in place, I'd like to hear it.

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The worse part of the HH SS is that extra slit to climb through to get out to go to the bathroom and having to push the OCF pad to the side. I've always slept with my head to the left and feet to my right of the hammock's keel. Never had the problem with the OCF pad Billy Bob is referring to.

[psyculman]

I've always had more of a problem getting the space blanket to stay in place in the SS than the pad. If anybody has any suggestions on keeping the space blanket in place, I'd like to hear it.

Inserting the WM SB between the hammock, and the undercover allows quite a bit of the SB to fold out between the two, and keeps it in place, on top of the underpad, or below it.

[FishBone]

Hi Hikingjer-
I put the SB between the pad and the hammock and tuck the corners of the SB under the pad, between the pad and the JRB weather shield that I use instead of the HH undercover. I allow for a little slack in the SB to prevent tearing. The curves of the pad vs. the square corners of the SB allow enough overlap to secure the SB nicely.

[BillyBob58]

Last night I slept in the backyard in a HH Backpacker A-sym, stock tarp, with a Super Shelter (SS) on a Vario Byer stand. I used a 25 degree rated North Face down bag, a 3/4 length Z-Rest foam pad with a down vest under my feet. I wore a fleece sweater and balaclava, blue jeans and Thor-Lo socks. I was warm enough most of the night (but never toasty) except at 4 am when the temp bottomed out. The low temps woke me up but I wasn't cold, just not warm at all.

It dropped down to about 35 degrees at 4 am and it was very moist with 98% relative humidity measured at the airport. There was no wind. The condensation was brutal. The stock tarp let a few drops down on to the hammock bug net but the down bag stayed dry. The high RH may have collapsed the down bag's loft a little (?).

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I've always had more of a problem getting the space blanket to stay in place in the SS than the pad. If anybody has any suggestions on keeping the space blanket in place, I'd like to hear it.

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The worse part of the HH SS is that extra slit to climb through to get out to go to the bathroom and having to push the OCF pad to the side. I've always slept with my head to the left and feet to my right of the hammock's keel. Never had the problem with the OCF pad Billy Bob is referring to.

Thanks Hikingjer, for the very interesting report. One advantage I have seen to the HH ( in my experience and IMO) is when dealing with heavy condensation on the inside surface of the tarp. The bottom entry usually allows me to get in and out of the hammock relatively dry, compared to my top loaders. Usually the worst case is I get a few drops ( or a lot of drops) on the bug net, but I don't soak my back or head accidentally rubbing against the tarp at 3AM. It's just easier for me not to contact the tarp when I'm getting in and out the bottom. Unless I have a really high and wide tarp pitch, any way.

So, is this correct, you used the short pad inside the hammock, but no SB? Or did you use both?

You mention brutal condensation. Was that just on the tarp, or did you have condensation inside the SS, undercover and/or on the HH OCF pad? Or even inside the hammock?

Could you tell if you were "not warm" on the bottom, top or both?

I'm not sure why there is a problem keeping the SB in place. It has always been a bit of a noisy pain to get the SB situated in the first place, but once I get the WM SB or Heat Sheet in place, they pretty much stay put. I usually try to drape it over the edges of the OCF pad, as has been mentioned by FB and others. The side guy outs are in the way, but I can still more or less accomplish this.

I have never had good results ( unless it is pretty warm) using the SS without the SB. The one time I had major condensation issues inside the UC and on the pad was in your neck of the woods, in the Olympics. Boy was it humid, and foggy. My pad was very wet near the foot, and it was wet down in the UC. I was still completely warm ( high 40s, synthetic bag/quilt), but wet. I didn't even notice there was a problem until I got up for the day. All dried quickly, however. Coincidentally, that was the one time I chose not to add the SB. I did the next night and had no more condensation problems. It just seems to me that the waterproof sil-nylon cover, slightly removed from the body heat and exposed to the cold air, causes much more condensation than does a SB snugged up against the body, and on the warm side of the insulation. Much like with the tarp gets so much condensation. Just a theory, don't really know.

Also, I never have any trouble worth mentioning exiting the SS compared to the HH without the SS, though others have mentioned this. Maybe just because I got so used to it? It's just a matter of first putting my foot out of the HH slit as normal, and then taking maybe an additional split second to "hook" the UC slit and push it all to the side. I can be in and out of that sucker about as quick as I can my top loaders. Again, maybe it is just a matter of long term use.

[hikingjer]

One advantage I have seen to the HH ( in my experience and IMO) is when dealing with heavy condensation on the inside surface of the tarp. The bottom entry usually allows me to get in and out of the hammock relatively dry, compared to my top loaders. Usually the worst case is I get a few drops ( or a lot of drops) on the bug net, but I don't soak my back or head accidentally rubbing against the tarp at 3AM. It's just easier for me not to contact the tarp when I'm getting in and out the bottom...So, is this correct, you used the short pad inside the hammock, but no SB? Or did you use both?...You mention brutal condensation. Was that just on the tarp, or did you have condensation inside the SS, undercover and/or on the HH OCF pad? Or even inside the hammock?

Could you tell if you were "not warm" on the bottom, top or both?

Good point. Never thought about it that way. Besides that advantage, the bottom enter/exit is tolerable at best. But, it does seem the big net acts as a little bit of a wind block and insulation and may add a little, little bit of warmth.

I used a 3/4 length Z-Rest in addition to a space blanket in the UC/OCF pad/SS.

The brutal condensation was just from the stock tarp. Surprisingly, there was little, if any, noticeable condensation on the bottom i.e. on the SS. This is different than a past experience using the SS in cold, dry conditions just above freezing.

Another surprising thing that night was that the sensation of being "not warm", was on the top but not on the bottom. In other words, the HH SS did its work but the down sleeping bag did perform 100%. Not sure but the 98% RH may have collapsed the goose down and reduced its loft. If anyone else has used a down bag in a high humidity at 30-40 F temps has experienced loft reduction, I'd like to hear about it.


It just seems to me that the waterproof sil-nylon cover, slightly removed from the body heat and exposed to the cold air, causes much more condensation than does a SB snugged up against the body, and on the warm side of the insulation. Much like with the tarp gets so much condensation. Just a theory, don't really know.

I concur. That's been my experience too. That hypothesis makes sense. That's the great thing about having a hammock stand to use in the backyard. One can easily do semi-scientific experiments with various hammock combinations and bail out if it's not going well.

This was the second time I camped out in the backyard. It was noisy. There are way too many people peeling out and drag racing at 3 am in my neighborhood. There are a lot of kids and young people with those big fart-can mufflers on lowrider Hondas or whatever that make their cars even louder and accentuate gear changes. They like to zip around, gun the engine, peel out, windows vibrating from bass. 3 am is a little late for that.

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FishBone & psyculman:

Thanks for the comments and advice. I'll have to do that next time. There's no way I'm the only HH SS user with a falling SB problem, gravity being what it is. Others will like to read that too.