View Full Version : Holiday Reminder re: Marketplace Terms of Service
Just Jeff
11-14-2012, 11:55
As the holidays approach, we're already getting a bunch of threads offering good deals and Black Friday sales. Before you post these, please refresh yourself with a few key points in the Terms of Service (http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25509).
We're also about to add specific guidance on not posting random good deals. These are great...but they're all over the internet. If you want a random good deal, search for it! :jj: We don't want a bunch of non-hammock clutter on the forum, or a bunch of big-box manufacturer spam links choking out the cottage-level innovation that happens here.
VI. The Marketplace. Hammock Forums offers a Marketplace for members to sell their personal gear or to post about a piece of gear they’re willing to buy.
C. Items must be listed with a selling price. No auction-style posts, bidding on items, or linking to auctions.
D. Do not post links to websites that offer referral bonuses or kickbacks.
I. No 'PayPal Gift Only' or 'PayPal Personal Only' payment requirements are allowed in sales.
J. Vendors and resellers are not welcome to post their sales in the Marketplace. Dumping extra inventory, even if it’s a good deal for HF’s members, violates the essentially non-commercial nature of our site.
dragon360
11-14-2012, 12:06
Too bad about the posting of random good deals - for me that has been great and very helpful. Is there some way of still accomodating this?
Just Jeff
11-14-2012, 12:23
Not if we want to stay true to HF's primary mission (and we do). Here's the response last time this came up:
We've discussed it among the mods and have decided to stick with the original policy. We try very hard to keep HF focused on original content and to minimize the commercial influence, so the only vendors we'd like to reward are the ones offering original products to the community. We don't want their innovation to be squeezed out by mass marketers. If our cottage manufacturers have great deals, they're free to post them in the vendor subforums (but even cottage hammock makers are not allowed to post non-hammock advertisements in their own subforums).
We know that not everyone agrees with this policy, but we think it's one of the key ingredients to creating the community that has sprung up here. Since this community is more important to us than finding some good deals, we'd like to keep the policy in place for HF. What someone does with another site and another community is not our decision, but HF will remain as non-commercial as possible.
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52317
I'm just as interested in a good deal as the next guy, but if I'm not actually out in the woods, I'd rather spend my time reading about good trails to hike and hammock innovations.
dragon360
11-14-2012, 12:35
Believe me WV - I am with you! At least this will save me some money!
would it be bad form to post deals on other gear in the DMSF OT section? id rathernot see the FS section cluttered anyway, and id rather give my $ to Dutch and the like than big box store but sometimes the stores have things not offered by vendors.
Cannibal
11-14-2012, 17:48
would it be bad form to post deals on other gear in the DMSF OT section?
Alright, you got me. What is the "DMSF OT section"?
Donating Member Sub-Forum Off-Topic?
And here I thought acronyms were supposed to make things less 'wordy'. :lol:
The short answer is still no. Like Jeff said in his first post, those things are all over the internet and not difficult to search. We really don't want to be a link farm for big box outfits. We are very lucky to have the cottage vendor interactions that we do and we also appreciate the fact that they come here to share as much, or more, than to sell. That's about all the commercialism we are looking for here. Discussion is more valuable to us than 'Hot Deals'.
gargoyle
11-15-2012, 08:33
Alright, you got me. What is the "DMSF OT section"?
Donating Member Sub-Forum Off-Topic?
And here I thought acronyms were supposed to make things less 'wordy'. :lol:.
MWDKWATAM..:lol::D
moderators who dont know what all the acronyms mean.
cfi on the fly
11-15-2012, 09:07
I'm just as interested in a good deal as the next guy, but if I'm not actually out in the woods, I'd rather spend my time reading about good trails to hike and hammock innovations.
Its just too bad that we cant have the option of doing both. Why there cant be a subforum for "deal alerts" that you can choose to read OR not, beats me.
Just Jeff
11-15-2012, 09:19
Because it clutters the forum, especially for folks who use the "new posts" function. And because that's one more thing for the mods to work on that doesn't add to HF's primary mission of discussing hammocks.
What beats me is why people come to Hammock Forums asking for all kinds of non-hammock things. If you want non-hammock things, go to a non-hammock forum. Maybe look for one called GoodDealForums.com.
It's also kinda funny that people use the logic of, "All the other good forums do that." Good...then it's not needed here b/c all the other good ones are already doing it. So...you do actually have the option of doing both. Choose to read the good deal subs on the other forums OR not. :jj:
(I really mean the smiley, too...but this policy won't change.)
cfi on the fly
11-15-2012, 09:35
Because it clutters the forum, especially for folks who use the "new posts" function. And because that's one more thing for the mods to work on that doesn't add to HF's primary mission of discussing hammocks.
What beats me is why people come to Hammock Forums asking for all kinds of non-hammock things. If you want non-hammock things, go to a non-hammock forum. Maybe look for one called GoodDealForums.com.
It's also kinda funny that people use the logic of, "All the other good forums do that." Good...then it's not needed here b/c all the other good ones are already doing it. So...you do actually have the option of doing both. Choose to read the good deal subs on the other forums OR not. :jj:
(I really mean the smiley, too...but this policy won't change.)
Yeah, I figured out kind of early on here that certain policy's dont have a chance at change.
I do agree that if the "gear deal" has no bearing at all to the experience of hammocking then it doenst belong.
Have a good one:laugh:
Why couldn't it be another resource for the donating members, like the rest of the non-hammock stuff is?
Want information on camp stoves? Donating member.
Want information on backpacks? Donating member.
Want information on time-sensitive deals on camp stoves, backpacks, or other camping equipment? Donating member.
Want information on hammocks and only hammocks and hammocks all the time? Member.
cfi on the fly
11-15-2012, 09:37
Why couldn't it be another resource for the donating members, like the rest of the non-hammock stuff is?
Want information on camp stoves? Donating member.
Want information on backpacks? Donating member.
Want information on time-sensitive deals on camp stoves, backpacks, or other camping equipment? Donating member.
Want information on hammocks and only hammocks and hammocks all the time? Member.
Great Idea!!
Cannibal
11-15-2012, 10:14
Why couldn't it be another resource for the donating members, like the rest of the non-hammock stuff is?
Because it is a commercial topic. We do not want any more commercialism on HF than there is already. We don't want to take away from the cottage vendors and we don't want to be overflowed by 'representatives' of the sites that are being linked, spamming us to death (and yes, they start to show up like flies on rotten meat). Basically, we aren't looking for additional commercialization here. Much less, to give it formal license.
and yes, they start to show up like flies on rotten meat
Even if there's a $10 donation requirement and a vetting process, like the 50 post rule?
If it's about protecting the cottage industry, I can understand that...but I fail to see the connection between sharing a good deal with like-minded people and commercialization. Granted, it's not about me, and I don't make the rules...but more and more I see people trying to share deals they've found (Woot.com selling hammocks lately has been a big one that I've seen a few times) and these people aren't representatives of the vendor or retailer, just like-minded people sharing something useful.
Cannibal
11-15-2012, 10:40
The example you give is a perfect one. We do vet perspective members and particularly vendors. Our Vendor rules are very strict specifically so that we keep the commercial side of HF to a dull roar. That doesn't mean that we aren't bombarded by folks trying to join that are not approved. Many of those are rejected because it is obvious on the surface that they are here to sell. A few make it through and are quickly called-out by members via the Reported Posts. So yes, we do exactly what you're talking about here. Problem is, it is already a lot of work trying to ferret these people out. Adding links and links and links to 'good deals' will only multiply the workload.
But, that's the low hanging fruit. Mods know they will have to work when the accept the job. The real issue is more about focus. We don't want the focus to shift where HF becomes a place to shop. We went through something similar with the whole stove thing. HF is a hammock site, with hammock in the name, where we talk about hammocks. HF is a place to learn and as a byproduct, a place to make new friends. There are plug-ins you can add to your browser to find good deals. There are an infinite number of websites and search engines that provide good deals on just about any topic. There is only one HF. There are a couple of other hammock sites out there, but nobody can claim to be the resource that HF can claim on hammocks. Most of the credit goes to the members, but we attract and keep the members that we do because of the way the site is managed.
I think you will find the mods to be very resistant to commercialization. It contributes very little, as the information is very easy to find, but it adds plenty of problems. It just isn't the path that we want to be on with HF.
HURTHEART
11-15-2012, 10:50
Because it clutters the forum, especially for folks who use the "new posts" function. And because that's one more thing for the mods to work on that doesn't add to HF's primary mission of discussing hammocks.
I guess this comment settles the debate in my mind. I do use the "Today's Posts". I can see them getting cluttered with stuff that does not enhance this site. I like the site the way it is (except, when I get corrected by the Mods.) LOL
It seems like I am having a little problem with too much gear, I really need to cut down my on line shopping. I like using small businesses for my shopping needs. That is a part of HF, cottage vendors.
sodakgrrl
11-15-2012, 10:51
We really don't want to be a link farm for big box outfits. We are very lucky to have the cottage vendor interactions that we do and we also appreciate the fact that they come here to share as much, or more, than to sell. That's about all the commercialism we are looking for here. Discussion is more valuable to us than 'Hot Deals'.
We do not want any more commercialism on HF than there is already. We don't want to take away from the cottage vendors and we don't want to be overflowed by 'representatives' of the sites that are being linked,
HF is a hammock site, with hammock in the name, where we talk about hammocks. HF is a place to learn and as a byproduct, a place to make new friends.
Nicely put, Cannibal....several times. :)
For me seeing the Cottage Vendor Deals is good and fine. But I just pass on the Commercial Outfits as I will more than likely get an email or ad or catalogue from them anyways.
I am in favor of the rules as they stand.
Shug
Just Jeff
11-15-2012, 11:40
If it's about protecting the cottage industry, I can understand that...but I fail to see the connection between sharing a good deal with like-minded people and commercialization.
Really?
You post a good deal to a large commercial site with a cheap price. A member buys that product at a price that our low-volume cottage vendors cannot compete with. That member is now out of the market and no longer a potential customer to our cottage vendors for that product.
Pretty simple, really.
And that's in addition to the extra mod work. If price is more important to someone and they want a good deal, I completely understand that...and all they have to do is google it. But asking the mods to take on an enormous amount of work to save a folks a few minutes of googling? Seriously?
OutandBack
11-15-2012, 12:16
Nicely put, Cannibal....several times. :)
X2 to that sodagrrl.
I like the rules as they stand.
When I log on to HF I want to read about hammocks and hammock related topics and activites. Not movies, beer, sports, the latest steepandcheap deal.
I prefer our vendors because what I get in customer service is well worth any additional cost.
Props to the mods here, it would drive me crazy to have to read every thread every day. Man talk about turning a hobby into work.....
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! And HF ain't broke!
I love the way HF is moderated. I certainly don't want to add more workload for them!
I also buy just about all my equipment from cottage vendors (even before discovering HF) because they make a lighter, better product followed by better service than commercial vendors do. It's essentially buying custom gear.
And like Shug said, my email is overwhelmed by commercial sites hawking their wares on a daily basis.
Another one here that is more than happy with the way the site is run. Even although I'm a noob, I can see how much work the mods out in to keep this a great place to learn and share information!
We don't need it filled with spam that one fan find by doing a quick Google search, even if it is a good deal! :p
hairbear
11-16-2012, 06:31
if the big chain providers had their way they would use advertisement and over production to drop prices until the small man was crushed.the short term would be a cheap price for now,but later after the small man dies off prices go up to make up their losses.we would all be stuck with heavy gear with no research and development of new lighter products.i dont feel my opinion is important because im new, but i wouldnt want h f to look like my e mail after people you buy from sell your information to the masses,it looks like a spam bomb went off .
I completely agree with putting a break on big commercial influance. The one area that I have an opinion about is cottage industry vendors that have been members way before vending and have demonstrated a contribution to the hammock community with their ideas and product development. Although the products they offer are not specifically hammocks they do and have added obvious complimentary attributes for the hammock camper/backpacker. Ultralight backpacking is an idea I think goes hand in hand with the reason many choose to go with a hammock at all. Is there any room for a vendor space for the cottage vendors that happen to be outstanding positive members such as the likes of Luke of Lukesultralight.com?:D
Respectfully
HamMike
P.S. Holy **** that was my 2000th post!
Porkroll
11-18-2012, 20:06
I like HF just the way it is. I mainly use HF for ideas, and tips for DIY projects, and to show off my DIY stuff. I like to shop the HF approved vendors. If I want to go to a big chain, I go to their site. Besides, the big guys don't cater to us. And the For Sale forum is great, get rid of gear you don't use, or buy gear you've always wanted! Thanks to mods and members, HF is the best site ever!
I have to vote for HF to stay the way it is. That being said, the cottage vendors really do offer competitive prices anyways. I have bought a couple of things off them and have never had buyer's remorse. That cannot be said for some of the products a have purchased in big box stores.
J.Andersons
11-20-2012, 17:08
Also have to vote to HF to stay the way it is. I done only one tarp purchase but have to say that next camping related things I'm going to buy from cottages not from big box stores.
bonsaihiker
11-22-2012, 10:38
I've benefited from some of those "deal" threads, but I understand from where the mods are coming. You all run a great ship here and I'll defer to your judgement. I'd much rather talk about hammocks and hammock camping and give the cottage people a safe harbor.
canoebie
11-22-2012, 12:27
I've benefited from some of those "deal" threads, but I understand from where the mods are coming. You all run a great ship here and I'll defer to your judgement. I'd much rather talk about hammocks and hammock camping and give the cottage people a safe harbor.
Safe harbor is a great metaphor. The REI's and Campmor's will get to me other ways. I want HF to be about hammock things and vendors, people I know and trust. I look to other places for lowest price on things they offer, though not often.
Good constructive thread, and as always, thanks to the mods.
SoundWitness
11-22-2012, 13:03
At the risk of sounding like one of the older members on this forum and saying, "Because it's always been that way......", the Mods have this one correctly and rationally thought out. I've been here six years, and although I may not contribute a whole lot and post often, this site has been my number 1 resource for not only hammocking, but backpacking in general. I support our HF vendors financially because of their own commitment and shared knowledge on this forum, as well as their customer service.. And I will continue to do so. The camaraderie is paramount to me. If I want to score a deal from another dealer, another source, or some big box chain, I'll search their website. I subscribe to other "deal" sites and get alerts all the time.
As for HF........I'd rather read threads that are what they are. Nothing more.