HF's PayPal Policy - why it's important [Archive] - Hammock Forums - Hammocks and hammock camping

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Just Jeff

12-18-2012, 10:19

I know that some people simply don't like to follow rules, and that's something we deal with as it comes up. Others, though, will follow the rules if they understand why they're in place. (And still others follow the rules because they gave their word when they agreed to our TOS when they signed up...but not everyone cares about keeping their word.)

So here's why HF says you can't use PayPal's Gift Option when you make a sale.

1 - It's against PayPal's terms of service.
2 - PayPal once froze the HammockForums account because our members were using the gift option and breaking PayPal's terms of service.
3 - It protects the buyer in case of fraud. You can't file a complaint with PayPal if you use the gift option. This happens very rarely on HF, but it happens.

So if you use the gift option for selling/buying items in HF's marketplace, you risk getting OUR account frozen again. That's not cool.

It's clearly posted in the TOS that transactions cannot use the gift option, so sellers should factor that into the asking price. Our community here operates on mutual respect and manners...and it's very rude to ask another member in PM (after you have agreed upon the sale terms in the thread) to change the terms. That puts them on the spot, and risks something that's a benefit to this entire forum. We've gotten complaints about this happening, and we will remove access for it.

Most of our members follow the rules because it's the right thing to do, and we thank all of you for that. We don't make random rules because of a power trip...there's a specific reason for each one. We'll even explain the reasons if you ask, rather than trying to sneak around them. Breaking your word to abide by the terms of service is not only disrespectful, it's harmful to the community. We don't tolerate much of either here; it's what makes HF special.

inspectorguy

12-18-2012, 10:26

The gift option always sounds like a way to save a couple of bucks, but I have completely stopped using it unless someone WANTS to pay me that way, or just does it on their own. {not on HF} of course.

Reason being, I have had to make 2 different claims for one reason or another, and if I had used the gift option on either transaction, I would have been left high and dry.

2Questions

12-18-2012, 11:07

ZQ here....from the sellers view....all of JJ's reason, and a big plus...PayPal allows First Class shipping. Printing a FC label thru PayPal includes a tracking number at no additional charge. Shipping costs are a bit less also. No FC label printing on the USPS website.
So, if you think you are doing a favor for the seller paying as a gift....in my opinion...being able to print a label and putting it out for pick-up is a big time saver for me, with the added benefits I mentioned.

BrianWillan

12-18-2012, 11:23

hangnout

12-18-2012, 11:37

+1 on both

I have not purchased items for both reasons.
I agree.

I also find it distasteful when I see sellers also asking for the buyer to pay the PayPal fees. I view offering PayPal and the associated fees as a cost of doing business. I also account for that in the price I either charge or accept for any given item.

Cheers

Brian

mbcruzin

12-18-2012, 11:49

Ok but if I'm paying for a donating memeber status do I pay it as a service or a gift?

angrysparrow

12-18-2012, 12:29

Ok but if I'm paying for a donating memeber status do I pay it as a service or a gift?

When you click the Donate button, it doesn't even give you the option.

If you're sending it directly (only done if paying for someone else's membership), you should always use the Service option.

Unless you're sending money as a Gift to a friend or family, you should never use the Gift option.

MAD777

12-18-2012, 12:35

I love the professional way that the mods run HammockForums! Just another stellar example of it :thumbup:

Shug

12-18-2012, 12:38

I only sail on a tightly run ship.
God job and a pat and slap on the back to all the Moderators))))))
Shug

mbcruzin

12-18-2012, 14:03

When you click the Donate button, it doesn't even give you the option.

If you're sending it directly (only done if paying for someone else's membership), you should always use the Service option.

Unless you're sending money as a Gift to a friend or family, you should never use the Gift option.

Ok thank you. I will remember in the future.

peanuts

12-18-2012, 14:12

what about if you don't have paypal and you want to sell your surplus gear??? nothing is said about that....

WickedKlown2

12-18-2012, 14:54

I agree.

I also find it distasteful when I see sellers also asking for the buyer to pay the PayPal fees. I view offering PayPal and the associated fees as a cost of doing business. I also account for that in the price I either charge or accept for any given item.

Cheers

Brian

You are correct on the buyer not having to pay the PayPal fee, it's the sellers responsibility.

From the PayPal User Agreement : https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#16.%20Selling%20items

Your obligations when receiving funds

13.3. If you receive funds through our Services you must:

pay any Fees for receiving the funds into your Account depending on whether it is a Commercial Transaction or Personal Transaction;
not ask the buyer to send you the payment through a Personal Transaction if you sell goods or services and PayPal is chosen as the payment method; or
not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting our Services as a payment method.

Also from PayPal : https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees

Buying something :
Always free - PayPal is free whenever you use it to buy something or make a payment in the US. The seller pays us a small fee to securely handle your payment. As a buyer, you never pay a fee to use PayPal.Every Forum that I am a member of with a BST section has the "no paypal fee for buyers" in their rules along with "no gifting" of payments.

angrysparrow

12-18-2012, 14:58

what about if you don't have paypal and you want to sell your surplus gear??? nothing is said about that....

peanuts, this thread is about the PayPal policy. If you don't use PayPal, then it doesn't apply.

peanuts

12-18-2012, 15:31

just making sure, that is all.thanks

BrianWillan

12-18-2012, 18:47

You are correct on the buyer not having to pay the PayPal fee, it's the sellers responsibility.

From the PayPal User Agreement : https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#16.%20Selling%20items

I've been using PayPal for years and I didn't know they had that in the User Agreement. It's good that it is done that way.

Cheers

Brian

Boomer

12-18-2012, 19:20

Thank you for the reminder. And great job Moderating. That's why I hang out here.

canoebie

12-18-2012, 19:27

Glad for the reminder of the sellers and pp fees. It needed to be said again.

On a lighter note, I was observing and agreeing with all the praise for the Mods, and I suddenly wondered what it would be like to party with the mods, you know , sorta cut loose a little, as a group. It was a fun thought.... I wonder......

Reminds me of those infamous lyrics, "just my imagination..."

Just Jeff

12-18-2012, 20:10

We're pretty normal guys in person. We don't run the hangouts...just the forum. Which means we don't have to follow the forum rules in person, either... :jj:

And we actually agree with a lot of the things we have to moderate, delete, edit, etc. Just b/c we agree with it doesn't mean HF is the place to discuss it!

hairbear

12-18-2012, 21:32

what is gained in the whole gift sale thing anyway,pardon my cave man aproach to technology.

angrysparrow

12-18-2012, 21:39

what is gained in the whole gift sale thing anyway,pardon my cave man aproach to technology.

By accepting a 'gift' instead of a payment, the seller doesn't pay the basic PP fee. (30 cents for the transaction, plus 2.9%) Basically for every $100, it's a $3 fee.

The buyer loses all protection and rights to dispute by paying that way.

Slowanderer

12-18-2012, 22:40

Thanks guys, keep up the good work. It is very much appreciated. This is my favorite place to be !!!

fallkniven

12-18-2012, 23:01

Doesn't the word 'gift' mean no money is needed. Why would paypal even have a gift option? That's odd...

Caribou Bentspoke

12-18-2012, 23:09

Let me add #4, it's easier for the seller to hit a button and print a label.
And #5, there is no way the address can be messed up.

Just Jeff

12-18-2012, 23:25

Doesn't the word 'gift' mean no money is needed. Why would paypal even have a gift option? That's odd...

That's like when grandmothers send birthday money to their grandchildren, or food money to college kids. It's not in return for a good or service...it's a gift.

We don't do much of that on HF...and none of it happens in the For Sale subforum, which is why it's prohibited.

fallkniven

12-18-2012, 23:40

Ah. That makes sense. Didn't think about the money being the gift. Always wondered what that was all about.

K0m4

12-19-2012, 08:56

I also find it distasteful when I see sellers also asking for the buyer to pay the PayPal fees. I view offering PayPal and the associated fees as a cost of doing business. I also account for that in the price I either charge or accept for any given item.

I disagree. Most FS threads is not about businesses, it's people selling their excess gear either because they don't need it anymore or to salvage a few bucks if you got something wrong. If you're clear in the ad about adding the fees into the price, it is nothing different from asking to add the shipping costs. You should be upfront with it though.

Just Jeff

12-19-2012, 09:16

Semantics, really - if you do it up front, it's already included in the price whether you break it out in the post or not.

As long as you don't list the terms, and then ask the buyer to pay the fees AFTER they've agreed to the listed price.

BrianWillan

12-19-2012, 10:49

I disagree. Most FS threads is not about businesses, it's people selling their excess gear either because they don't need it anymore or to salvage a few bucks if you got something wrong. If you're clear in the ad about adding the fees into the price, it is nothing different from asking to add the shipping costs. You should be upfront with it though.

Refer back to post #12 in this thread, which quotes the PayPal User Agreement.

Cheers

Brian

OneThing

12-19-2012, 13:19

K0m4

12-19-2012, 15:24

Refer back to post #12 in this thread, which quotes the PayPal User Agreement.

Cheers

Brian

When there's a transaction between two individuals, neither of which is conducting a business, I think it's perfectly fair to say "I don't want to pay money for the fact that you are paying me money for this item I'm selling, so I'll include the fees for making the transaction easy in the price". Then the total will add up to more or less than what anyone is willing to pay, and decisions will be taken accordingly. As justjeff said: semantics - claiming it afterwards is not right. But I think it's cleaner to state that paypal fees are in the price. I have done it all the time on other forums, to me it's nothing strange.

Just Jeff

12-19-2012, 17:26

Maybe a "Sticky" on "Selling Etiquette on HF." could by added. A policy of "Seller pays PayPal fees" be added.

There are two stickies there already...one titled "For Sale/Want to Buy Forum Rules. PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING !!!" and one specifically about the PayPal rule, "NO PAYPAL GIFT OPTION in your For Sale Thread."

But you just highlighted the issue we have with rules. Folks don't take the time to read stickies in all caps with THREE exclamation points (!!!) before listing items for sale. And then some folks get mad at us for moderating their threads. :jj:

OneThing

12-19-2012, 20:29

There are two stickies there already...one titled "For Sale/Want to Buy Forum Rules. PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING !!!" and one specifically about the PayPal rule, "NO PAYPAL GIFT OPTION in your For Sale Thread."

But you just highlighted the issue we have with rules. Folks don't take the time to read stickies in all caps with THREE exclamation points (!!!) before listing items for sale. And then some folks get mad at us for moderating their threads. :jj:

You're right, there's no win win either way. I read both, but didn't think "Buyer Pays PayPal fees" would be "distasteful" to some if it was posted up front. The definition of 'Distasteful' is, inappropriate, & unethical.

I've been a buyer many times, and as long as I know up front all the costs. I was not offended in any way, nor did I think anyone, including myself was doing anything inappropriate, & unethical.

I like Amazon, where you can see up front shipping costs + tax, and you have a choice of methods of shipping.

So, with that said, everything is a learning experience, & I will post the full price, which includes shipping, & Paypal fees when I sell an item. :)

Porkroll

12-22-2012, 16:54

I bought something, and after the sale, the seller requested a paypal gift payment. I was ignorant to the HF rules for PayPal at the time, and payed it. I will not let that happen again in the future.

Grapenut

12-24-2012, 14:22

Its awkward to have folks ask you to go the gift route after the sale is closed and then have to remind them of the rules...and then offer to cover half of the PayPal costs if that is an issue, etc.

Just makes me feel like a "heel" every time I have to remind sellers and its kind of a kharma-killer.

Thanks for posting the reminder!

This is the best place I've found to buy and trade gear...and the Moderators can't be beat.

G-Nut :shades:

Trailuser

06-07-2013, 14:21

Glad I read this, won't use the gift option

default

06-09-2013, 23:23

IMO, a good member would know that and not ask you to use that option, and if I am asked to do as such then i immediately question the sellers legitimacy, and would rather not deal with them if they insisted.

StormFox45

06-18-2013, 03:11

Even if a seller "requires" I gift the payment, I pay using the goods option so my purchase is protected. I tell the seller that I will gift the PayPal fees (usually around 3 dollars) when I receive a tracking number. This way I am protected, and I figure it's my prerogative if I would like to gift somebody a couple bucks for a smooth transaction. Worst case scenario I lose a couple dollars.