Which should be thicker, UQ or top quilt?

[Heber]

So I recently made an underquilt for my DIY bridge. No pictures (I know, I know, broke a cardinal rule) but it's not much to look at. It's rectangular (48" by 60") and uses 5osy Climashield from thru-hiker for insulation. For a top quilt you'd call that a 20 degree quilt.

So last night I gave it a try. It was 25 degrees and I had a 20 degree down quilt on top and the 20 degreee climashield underquilt underneath. Definite cold butt syndrome (and shoulder when I slept on my side). Brr. :eek: The top insulation was plenty warm (slipped off my socks in fact during the night because I was getting too warm). I ended up putting my Ridgerest between the two layers of my bridge hammock and then I was fine of course.

Now this isn't what I was expecting. I thought a 20 degree quilt above and a 20 degree quilt below would be fine. Instead I felt like I was fine on top but needed more underneath. Now there are several possibilities here.

1. The climashield underquilt is not as warm as the down top quilt.

2. Air leakage between the hammock and the underquilt. Certainly possible. I used clothespins to try to hold the quilt to the sides of the hammock but I'm sure it wasn't perfect.

3. You just need more insulation under you than over you.

Can someone with underquilt experience chime in? I've been a pad user so far so this was my first hang with an underquilt.

[Cannibal]

The Climashield should be fine; how many layers were you using? I use a synthetic UQ made with Climashield and use, almost exclusively, top quilts made of down. Other than weight, the two seem pretty comparable...to me.

I (well, my girlfriend) have only one night's experience in a bridge, but that night wasn't a good one insulation wise. I'm sure there are tricks to be learned with them, but my girl wasn't warm that night. She now says that it was because of the cold air coming in the ends, but that doesn't make sense if you say you were fine on top. Could it be that there are gaps between the hammock and the quilt on the sides of the hammock or on the bottom (drooping)?

I do think the underside is more critical than the top. In my case (I know I'm weird), the only top quilt I have that is lighter than my UQ is my summer quilt; my backside seems to have it's own heater.

[Heber]

I was using 1 layer of 5 osy climashield.

There could be a gap between the hammock and the quilt but not very major (from a visual inspection). Since the UQ is rectangular but the bridge is not rectuangular it's possible that the quilt sags on the bottom. But wouldn't that just be extra trapped air that should keep you warm?

[Cannibal]

Noooooo, air bubbles = bad. It's a fine line between snug and too loose or too tight. Once you get it right, try to not mess with your settings. Insulation works by trapping air, but we are talking microclimates, not pockets.

OK, 1 layer isn't going to do much for you. My synthetic UQ has 4 layers (3 removable). I took it down to one layer for a few weeks in the summer and wished that I hadn't. If you can, add a layer or two and I think you'll notice a big difference, especially at 20F.

[Take-a-knee]

I was using 1 layer of 5 osy climashield.

There could be a gap between the hammock and the quilt but not very major (from a visual inspection). Since the UQ is rectangular but the bridge is not rectuangular it's possible that the quilt sags on the bottom. But wouldn't that just be extra trapped air that should keep you warm?

I know Thruhiker claims 20 degree rating for one layer of 5 ounce climashield, I'd say freezing would be more realistic.

[warbonnetguy]

cannibal basically had twice, not 4 times what you have, his 4 layers are only 2.5 ea.

yeah, 5.0 to 20 deg seems optimistic. anybody have a single layer 5.0 cs tq?

[Cannibal]

cannibal basically had twice, not 4 times what you have, his 4 layers are only 2.5 ea.
Well there ya go. He should know, he made it! :thumbup:

[Schneiderlein]

yeah, 5.0 to 20 deg seems optimistic. anybody have a single layer 5.0 cs tq?

I do, and have used it in the low 20s comfortably.

[warbonnetguy]

well, maybe it's not that optimistic then. probably for an uq though.

[Schneiderlein]

well, maybe it's not that optimistic then. probably for an uq though.

I think several people here have reported the 5osy XP working down to 20 as a top quilt, myself included. I do not recall a post about similar temperatures as an underquilt.

I asked the same question (with a poll) Heber is asking a while ago and did not get a clear answer. I know I need more insulation under the hammock than up top, but cannot really quantify it very well.

[koaloha05]

Based on my limited experience my personal bias is for more insulation bottom side. I can take the Mt Washington as an underquilt with the Nest as a top quilt down into at least the low 20F. Reverse the quilts and I very much doubt my body would be nice and warm. Tough to sleep in comfort with a cold back, butt and shoulder.

[lenle01]

Heber, You are not alone. I recently made a KAQ for my HH out of 5oz climashield and found it kinda chilly on the backside @ 25*. I'm thinking about adding a layer of 1.8oz primaloft sport. I used speers 1.9oz ripstop thinking it would have more wind resistance and trap more heat in. What fabric did you use (1.1, 1.9)? Does anybody know if a different weight fabric really makes a difference in temp rating?

[Heber]

I used 1.1 oz ripstop for my quilt.

[lenle01]

Are the removable insulation layers sewn to a carrier scrim or nylon? Do you have to turn the uq inside out every time you want to change the layering? How do you keep the insulation from shifting? Sorry for jumping in on your thread Heber.

[Cannibal]

I'll let WBG answer the attachment question. I suppose you could switch out the insulation without turning it inside out, but it would suck. Turning it inside out is really easy since there is a zipper at the base. The layers are held in place with quilt loops. When you want to change out layers just snip, replace, reloop. It didn't take me an hour to do.

[lenle01]

Thank's Cannibal!

I've decided to add a 2.5oz layer of climashield to the 5.0oz layer I already have. Adding a zipper should be pretty easy. The ability to add or remove a layer is going to be great!

Heber- I do apologize again for jumping in. Hopefully your ? has been answered.

[Youngblood]

You want more insulation on the bottom than on the top. It is easier to vent topside insulation and sleep more comfortably. That is how we sleep on normal beds and we have developed instincts on how to vent, roll over, tuck in covers, etc, in our sleep.

If you have more insulation on top than on bottom and you get into a situation where you are cold on the bottom you can get into a bad situation. When you are cold because you don't have enough insulation on the bottom, your 1st instinct might be to tuck in your top side insulation (since that is all you can get to) and overheat on the top. That doesn't help and isn't a good situation to be in... actually it can be pretty miserable.

Whenever you are camping and wake up cold, you need to try and determine just where you are cold. Then you need to think just what you can do to remedy that. Sometimes it is just a simply adjustment with your gear and other times you need to do something. Gloves, hats, unused clothes, etc can be used to quickly shore up a cold spot. Small pieces of closed cell foam can do the trick as well. Sometimes it might be wind getting to you and you might need to get up and change how you pitched a tarp or move something to block it. The wind is another reason you want more bottom side insulation than top side because the bottom side is generally more exposed to the wind.

[animalcontrol]

cannibal basically had twice, not 4 times what you have, his 4 layers are only 2.5 ea.

yeah, 5.0 to 20 deg seems optimistic. anybody have a single layer 5.0 cs tq?

I have made the exact same TQ/UQ (1 layer of 5 oz Climashield) as the original poster...

I used it as both a TQ and UQ at different times. My results may vary by user...
TQ...temp rating was spot on...rated to 20* and I was "comfortable" (not warm or cold) at 19* I wouldn't push it any further...I made my mental limit of 25*
UQ...not as warm...Cold Butt Syndrome and some shoulder coolness at 25*. I wasn't 100% comfortable with my UQ suspension setup but even if my theories had worked...I would have guess my limit would have been about 30* for the UQ alone. I was going to add an upper torso pad and use it to 20*

IMHO, the UQ rating would be lower for any insulation for 2 reasons...
1. heat rises. Hence, it is easier to trap it above you
2. gravity. A TQ uses gravity to cover you. A UQ uses engineering (a suspension) to hold it against you. Many more things to adjust and can go wrong.

Disclaimer - I'm a coldish sleeper...I normally exceed the temp rating of sleeping bags by 5-10*

[Heber]

Thanks everyone for the insights.

Lenle01, don't even worry about jumping on the thread. It's all good info and I'm learning from all of it.

I think animalcontrol's instincts are right. Now that I think about it the fact that heat rises makes it harder to heat up the air under you and makes it harder to keep that warm air there.

[Doftya]

Thanks everyone for the insights.

Lenle01, don't even worry about jumping on the thread. It's all good info and I'm learning from all of it.

I think animalcontrol's instincts are right. Now that I think about it the fact that heat rises makes it harder to heat up the air under you and makes it harder to keep that warm air there.

That's what I was thinking. Although cold is not an entity (it is the description we assign to the absence of heat) but heat convects, heat rises, and as it rises something must take it's place. As heat rises, it feels like cold moves in and takes it's place. The top quilt slows the rising of heat, and the under quilt will help prevent that cold from getting in and replacing the heat as it moves up. You could also think if an under quilt like a partial vacuum that as the top quilt will prevent the heat from moving up, the vacuum sucks that heat down. If that makes sense. Using silnylon will help restrict the flow of air, but heat will move independent of airflow. Slower, but it will still move. Thus a good layer of insulation to trap that heat and restrict it's movement is the best bet.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but maybe it helps.

[warbonnetguy]

Are the removable insulation layers sewn to a carrier scrim or nylon? Do you have to turn the uq inside out every time you want to change the layering? How do you keep the insulation from shifting? Sorry for jumping in on your thread Heber.



it's climashield continuous filament, so there's no scrim, there is one layer sewn to the quilt along the perimeter only, then the other layers are quilt looped (along the perimeter) to the permanent one. step each successive layer in a little each time(by about the thickness of the layer) to keep from compressing them.

make sure to put the zipper on the outer layer, or at least so you can "stack" layers under the permanent one rather than between the parmanent one and the hammock which would also compress them, you want them to hang below.

[lenle01]

it's climashield continuous filament, so there's no scrim, there is one layer sewn to the quilt along the perimeter only, then the other layers are quilt looped (along the perimeter) to the permanent one. step each successive layer in a little each time(by about the thickness of the layer) to keep from compressing them.

make sure to put the zipper on the outer layer, or at least so you can "stack" layers under the permanent one rather than between the parmanent one and the hammock which would also compress them, you want them to hang below.

When you add or remove layers are you re-quilting through the same thread holes? or just quilting in a new area? I thought about adding some small grommets to the quilting points so I wouldn't have a ton of holes in the fabric. Maybe just use a small soldering iron tip to melt the edges of the holes. I guess I'm just worried about the ripstop coming apart.

Thank's for the info on the zipper. I was wondering where to put it.

[Take-a-knee]

When you add or remove layers are you re-quilting through the same thread holes? or just quilting in a new area? I thought about adding some small grommets to the quilting points so I wouldn't have a ton of holes in the fabric. Maybe just use a small soldering iron tip to melt the edges of the holes. I guess I'm just worried about the ripstop coming apart.

Thank's for the info on the zipper. I was wondering where to put it.

You are not running a needle through the shell when you add or remove layers, just looping a thread through the climashield layer you are adding, and into the layer below it. You are just stabilizing the edge of the batt.

I just obtained a Warbonnet synthetic UQ. The HF member who sold it to me sent it with the extra layers loose. I've quilt looped a second layer back into the UQ as per Brandon's instructions. I plan to try just installing the third layer loose and see how that works.

[lenle01]

You are not running a needle through the shell when you add or remove layers, just looping a thread through the climashield layer you are adding, and into the layer below it. You are just stabilizing the edge of the batt.

I just obtained a Warbonnet synthetic UQ. The HF member who sold it to me sent it with the extra layers loose. I've quilt looped a second layer back into the UQ as per Brandon's instructions. I plan to try just installing the third layer loose and see how that works.

Yeah, that makes sense. What the heck was I thinking!

[warbonnetguy]

[QUOTE
I just obtained a Warbonnet synthetic UQ. The HF member who sold it to me sent it with the extra layers loose. I've quilt looped a second layer back into the UQ as per Brandon's instructions. I plan to try just installing the third layer loose and see how that works.[/QUOTE]

yeah, that's right, don't put any loops through the shell, just through the already attached insul, and just around the perimeter.

what do you mean loose? like just laying it in there and not attaching it at all? i think that would leave some air gap between the loose layer and the other quilted layer. if the shell was just the right size there would be no extra room, but i think i cut them a little big so there would be room for at least 4 if not 5.

[Take-a-knee]

[QUOTE
I just obtained a Warbonnet synthetic UQ. The HF member who sold it to me sent it with the extra layers loose. I've quilt looped a second layer back into the UQ as per Brandon's instructions. I plan to try just installing the third layer loose and see how that works.

yeah, that's right, don't put any loops through the shell, just through the already attached insul, and just around the perimeter.

what do you mean loose? like just laying it in there and not attaching it at all? i think that would leave some air gap between the loose layer and the other quilted layer. if the shell was just the right size there would be no extra room, but i think i cut them a little big so there would be room for at least 4 if not 5.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the heads up Brandon, I'll try it loose and post back. I didn't think about the lower batt sagging. It is finally getting cold enough here in GA to do some proper testing.

[k5bpc]

Heber, You are not alone. I recently made a KAQ for my HH out of 5oz climashield and found it kinda chilly on the backside @ 25*. I'm thinking about adding a layer of 1.8oz primaloft sport. I used speers 1.9oz ripstop thinking it would have more wind resistance and trap more heat in. What fabric did you use (1.1, 1.9)? Does anybody know if a different weight fabric really makes a difference in temp rating?

The KAQ links I have found seem to be broken.. does anyone have a working link to plans or instructions?

Thanks!

[grannypat]

The KAQ links I have found seem to be broken.. does anyone have a working link to plans or instructions?

Thanks!

Arrowhead Equipment: http://arrowheadequipment.webs.com/kickassquilts.htm

[silentorpheus]

The KAQ links I have found seem to be broken.. does anyone have a working link to plans or instructions?

Thanks!

you can find it HERE (http://teamgunnparker.com/downloads.php?cat_id=1)

[k5bpc]

The first link does not work, but the second does.

Thank you!