View Full Version : DAM vs. UQ?
I have been thinking about hammocking in wet environments.
Can an argument be made supporting a DAM as a better choice for bottom insulation over a long hike? Weight is an issue, but I feel it would be more versatile over the long haul.
I have recently purchased both a DAM and a Snugfit, and I can see advantages to both. What do you think?
slowhike
01-20-2009, 22:17
I actually use both together in cold weather & I'm as sung as a bug in a rug!
I haven't tried the DAM alone in very cold weather... maybe 40s, but it spreads my speer type, DIY hammock just enough that if I lay on my back & strait, I still have a little space between me & the walls of the hammock, were my quilt can maintain it's loft... but not much.
If it's going to be very chili, I personally like to have something on the sides (underquilt or SPE) so I can move around as I like, sleeping on my side w/ legs pulled up, or whatever, w/o feeling the cold air against the sides of the hammock.
Cannibal
01-20-2009, 22:22
Too heavy for me!
You really don't need to be paranoid about wet weather and an underquilt IMO, just cautious. I can only think of a couple of times my quilts have gotten wet and they were my fault for not paying attention or being lazy and paying the price.
Now, if you're considering taking it in case you want to go to ground :scared:, that's another story and it would be more comfortable than the shelter deck.
BillyBob58
01-21-2009, 09:52
Too heavy for me!
You really don't need to be paranoid about wet weather and an underquilt IMO, just cautious. I can only think of a couple of times my quilts have gotten wet and they were my fault for not paying attention or being lazy and paying the price.
Now, if you're considering taking it in case you want to go to ground :scared:, that's another story and it would be more comfortable than the shelter deck.
And that was a Climashield quilt, if memory serves. How did that work out, with a wet UQ? Clearly you survived and keep going back for more! ;)
Cannibal
01-21-2009, 10:10
And that was a Climashield quilt, if memory serves. How did that work out, with a wet UQ? Clearly you survived and keep going back for more! ;)
I actually had to dump standing water (about 6") out of that UQ, then climb into bed for the night. Gooch Mtn. Shelter; I'll never forget that one. That night was the exception in the fact that my down top quilt didn't get wet; probably the only thing that let me sleep that night. Worst morning on the trail. The other times was usually due to lazy packing; not sealing everything up all nice.
Even so, when I switched out to the smaller MacCat Standard tarp I never noticed any 'splash' effect on my quilt in the morning after a storm. I'm sure there was some, but doubt it would have any substantial effect on the quilt's performance. JMO.
BillyBob58
01-21-2009, 12:20
I actually had to dump standing water (about 6") out of that UQ, then climb into bed for the night. Gooch Mtn. Shelter; I'll never forget that one. That night was the exception in the fact that my down top quilt didn't get wet; probably the only thing that let me sleep that night. .
Man, that sounds pretty darn bad! So, did your back freeze that night? Did it take long to dry out?
Cannibal
01-21-2009, 12:56
Man, that sounds pretty darn bad! So, did your back freeze that night? Did it take long to dry out?
I don't think the insulation got very wet, the shell did it's job. The larger problem was the fact that the hammock body itself was wet. I tried to dry it with my Pack Towel, then I put my fleece on (supposed to insulate when wet) followed by a stiff upper lip and climbed in for a rotten night.
When I unzipped the quilt in the morning and felt the insulation is was bone dry, so if it got damp my body heat dried it by morning.
I also left my boots out in the open that night. It was not a good night, nor morning.
Youngblood
01-21-2009, 15:23
I don't think the insulation got very wet, the shell did it's job. The larger problem was the fact that the hammock body itself was wet. I tried to dry it with my Pack Towel, then I put my fleece on (supposed to insulate when wet) followed by a stiff upper lip and climbed in for a rotten night.
When I unzipped the quilt in the morning and felt the insulation is was bone dry, so if it got damp my body heat dried it by morning.
I also left my boots out in the open that night. It was not a good night, nor morning.Without nights/days like that you wouldn't appreciate those mornings when the sun was bright, the birds were singing, and the views were inspiring.:D ... or at least that is what I always told myself, well that and these puds are just training for Katahdin.
Just Jeff
01-21-2009, 19:18
In very moist weather, the down inside the DAM will begin to lose loft as well. Especially if the down is damp and it's cold outside. That's why they say to avoid blowing into them. You'll still have a pad, just with less efficient insulation. Still more resistant than an underquilt, probably...but not completely immune to water or moisture.
Youngblood
01-21-2009, 19:27
In very moist weather, the down inside the DAM will begin to lose loft as well. Especially if the down is damp and it's cold outside. That's why they say to avoid blowing into them. You'll still have a pad, just with less efficient insulation. Still more resistant than an underquilt, probably...but not completely immune to water or moisture.
Jeff, I understand you don't manually blow DAMs up, that you use a pump sack to avoid the moisture from you breath. But that is the first I heard about the down getting damp because of the outside air that you use to inflate it containing moisture in humid conditions. It makes sense and something I always wondered about, just don't remember hearing that before.
Do you recon that the 'cold to the bone' that we sometimes experience in cold humid conditions is due in part to our basic insulation being compromised by moisture penetration?
wisenber
01-21-2009, 21:10
It's a shame you went with the DAM if you were concerned about moisture. I use a BA insulated air core that is synthetic and has a 4.1 R value. Even though I'm 6', I got he petite which is 66" for the weight savings. If I have to go to ground, I just put my pack under my feet. In my hammock, I don't need the full length.
That being said, I use both an UQ and a pad when it's below 30. I put the pad between my hammock and the UQ. I've used that combo with a peapod and -7 F was fine on the bottom. My No Sniveller and the pad had me warm at 15. If it looks to be colder than that, I bring my Huskie-Shepherd in my hammock for an extra 20 degrees.:lol:
Just Jeff
01-22-2009, 06:44
Do you recon that the 'cold to the bone' that we sometimes experience in cold humid conditions is due in part to our basic insulation being compromised by moisture penetration?
I guess it could be. It probably gets worse after several days of moist weather b/c you keep putting moisture into your quilts but, even though it's cold, the moisture can't evaporate as readily. This necessarily reduces its effectiveness. I know my quilts lost some loft on my FT trip b/c it was cool and moist every night for only a few days. Perked right back up when I finally took the time to dry them in the sun.
One thing I've always wondered about is how to dry the DAM's inside. There's only one valve so you can't create airflow. Maybe you could lay the DAM in the sun, on a slope, with the valve on the uphill side and open? Or you could just inflate/deflate several times in a dry environment. Otherwise, it seems that moisture would eventually build up and never escape.
But I just store mine with the valve open and it still works for me...haven't noticed a significant loss in warmth after maybe 30 nights on it, some in moist and some in dry conditions, so maybe this is all academic unless you're in prolonged cold/moist conditions.
MacEntyre
01-22-2009, 07:09
But I just store mine with the valve open...
That should work fine in a dry storage environment. If the vapor pressure of water inside the DAM is high, it will dry out on the inside, until it reaches equilibrium with the ambient air. It doesn't matter that the hole is small, or that there is no flow. It just takes time.
Since it takes time, the real problem is mold.
/engineer mode off/
Youngblood
01-22-2009, 08:51
...
One thing I've always wondered about is how to dry the DAM's inside. There's only one valve so you can't create airflow. ...
My Stephenson's DAM only has one valve but my Exped DAM has two. I think I recall reading somewhere where you could open both valves and use a hair drier (maybe on air only when it isn't humid?) to blow air in one of the valves to quickly circulate the air to dry it out quicker.
HappyCamper
01-22-2009, 09:42
My Stephenson's DAM only has one valve but my Exped DAM has two.
I was just going to say same thing. My down Exped 9 Deluxe has two valves. I never thought of the mold aspect. Good to know that I can try the hair dryer technique.
Just Jeff
01-22-2009, 19:13
Hrm...this made me go check my Downmat and it does have two valves. My thermarests have only one valve...guess that's where my brain fart came from. So the hair dryer trick sounds like a good plan for the Downmat and the heat should help kill any mold inside. That works good between trips...I wonder if anyone has actually experienced a significant drop in the insulation value of a DAM over a prolonged cold/damp trip. Anyone?
On a related note, I just got the REI version of the ProLite3 short and it says to blow into it to finish the inflation. Same deal...only one valve and blowing into it introduces moisture. But it's OCF inside so it shouldn't reduce the insulation at all. I guess it'll dry out eventually if I store it with the valve open, too.
I appreciate all of your responses. I had not considered the insulation in the mat getting wet from the humidity. The hair drier trick sounds like a great solution.
You guys are a wealth of information. Thanks for shortening my learning curve.
I actually bought a Syn mat. I found it for 35 bucks, so I got it. I had not considered the humidity affecting the insulation. I was thinking more of rolling fog and blowing rain.
It is nice to know how effective the insulation works for you. I have not used either of my new toys, so I look forward to experimenting with them soon.