What do you do when the UQ is wet

[lori]

Let's do a poll without a poll, for my further edumacation:

Where do you hang most of the time (in terms of climate/weather)?
Has your UQ ever gotten wet - was it soaked, splashed, damp, or dunked?
What did you do next? Go home, wait for the rain to stop and dry it out, build a fire, get out the spare UQ from your pack, steal a dry one from the hanger next door, whip out the emergency blanket, use it anyway?
If 'twas a down UQ, did you immediately run out and get synthetic, or did you figure out a way to prevent the wet next time under the same conditions?
If 'twas synthetic, was it everything we seem to expect synthetic to be - the answer to keeping warm with wet gear?

Real world experience trumps 1,000 flame war threads about down v. synthetic.

If you bought synthetic - was it a price issue or a fear of getting it wet? I'm seeing that down and synthetic versions of half or 3/4 underquilts are priced about the same. I know that down will compress better. Wondering if there are reasons I have not yet discovered for choosing synthetic over down.

[animalcontrol]

1. Midwest...weather, everything from below 0* and dry to 90* with 70% humidity.
2. UQ wet? no, I just converted to UQs. TQ/sleeping bag...yes. Down TQ wet...not dripping but approx 50% compressed. Ripstop wet to touch
3. Next? Got under the UQ (still afternoon) and covered myself and the wet UQ with a every piece of gear I had available...down jacket, clothes, pack. I used my body heat (I was trying to make as much heat as possible - hi was 20*/low 5*) to dry it out before night fell Was better but not even close to dry when I went to bed. Slept covered in everything I had...really was as warm as I was the night before with everything dry...not as bad as I thought it was going to be. Not something I would want to duplicate though! :scared:
4. I eliminated the potential for it to happen again by replacing my pack with a waterproof one. If I hadn't done that, I would have treated the TQ with a DWR coating and used a drybag.

I prefer down...I have some Climashield TQ/UQs that I made. I chose synthetic for 2 reasons...1. Much cheaper than down to purchase the materials and 2. Much easier to make using by limited DIY skills.
I also have a down UQ (never wet), a down TQ, and 2 down sleeping bags. When it gets COLD (lower than 20*) it's ALL down for me

[warbonnetguy]

good thread.

i've never gotten the uq wet, but i've been living in the arid west since i've been a uq user. i did get the shell of my marmot bag/tq pretty wet from really bad side blown rain and snow once.

it got the down wet enough to clump some (or at least form empty spots) and i could feel cold coming through those spots. i made it through the night and actually slept some, but it was bad enough to where we bailed the next day because of it. my only fallback was that i had a buddy alone in a 2 man tent where i knew i could go as a last resort. that's probably what enabled me to fall asleep. definately the coldest night i've ever spent in a hammock.

looking back, it could have been easily prevented by having a tarp with more side protection.

[BillyBob58]

I just posted on the other thread. My only wet UQs (PeaPod and MWUQ) were in the back yard. And I did not have to pack up the next morning. In both cases a stake pulled out in heavy wind driven rain/water saturated ground and A LOT of water got on them before I could correct the problem. But the DWR saved the day(night actually), and for all practical purposes, the down stayed mostly dry. So, no real experience to report. If you want to talk wet bags, then I have experience.

I do have a friend who, at the end of 2 dif week long trips, was starting to worry about the loft on both his down TQ and his summer weight PeaPod. Fortunately, by that time, it was time to finish the last days hike out. I think if it was another week, he would have been looking for some sunshine to dry out.

[BillyBob58]

good thread.

i've never gotten the uq wet, but i've been living in the arid west since i've been a uq user. i did get the shell of my marmot bag/tq pretty wet from really bad side blown rain and snow once.

it got the down wet enough to clump some (or at least form empty spots) and i could feel cold coming through those spots. i made it through the night and actually slept some, but it was bad enough to where we bailed the next day because of it. my only fallback was that i had a buddy alone in a 2 man tent where i knew i could go as a last resort. that's probably what enabled me to fall asleep. definately the coldest night i've ever spent in a hammock.

looking back, it could have been easily prevented by having a tarp with more side protection.

That is really the key, isn't it? Can you bail out in a reasonable amount of time if every thing goes wrong? Even a bigger tarp can suffer equipment failure, and it has happened.

[lori]

I think, from what is being said, that a weathershield becomes important - regardless of what the quilt is made of, that layer of waterproof material might just save the night. If the weather gets wicked it wouldn't be a guarantee, but would increase the odds of keeping your insulation dry.

[BillyBob58]

I just remembered: Cannibal, didn't you get your WB Syn UQ wet a couple of times on the AT?Also, Preachaman and every one with him got all gear soaked in an Ozark extreme storm.

So, guys, how did that work out?

[animalcontrol]

That is really the key, isn't it? Can you bail out in a reasonable amount of time if every thing goes wrong? Even a bigger tarp can suffer equipment failure, and it has happened.

Your absolutely right...it has happened...to people in every imaginable situation (hangers, climbers, tenters, etc)
No one can plan for every situation...nature is crafty that way! The best we can do is have contengincy plans for the "most common" ones.
Where most of us could get into trouble is when we start hedging our bets on potential issues. For example, not carrying enough "xtra" clothes if your primary set gets wet in the the winter..."that extra set weights too much and I never used them anyway" :rolleyes:
And honestly IMO, we as hangers are on the cutting edge of that argument. We give up some of the known technology (whether we think it is better or not) in search of comfort. Welcome to stretching the envelope.
Again, you can't have every angle covered. But you can have a plan backed up with another plan that you hope covers MOST of the angles.
I have been hypothermic...I have had an injury were I couldn't walk for days (and then 3 miles took all day). We learn and adapt.
None of the above rant has a thing to do with "down Vs synthetic" :confused:

[pizza]

I'm banking on my DD weather poncho to keep my uq and hammock bottom dry.

[east_stingray]

I am in total agreement with what BillyBob said in the first thread about this. It's really easy to puff out your chest and say "don't get wet", but that's a small comfort after a branch has torn down your tarp in the middle of a rain storm. I've never owned a down bag because it rains EVERY time I go camping. I would probably be fine 99% of the time, but getting it wet would be a big deal.

Synthetics have gotten much better than they used to be, and in my experience the only real downside to them now is that they don't last as long. Everyone always tells me that synthetics are much heavier, but I can't find a down 30 degree bag that's significantly lighter than my military patrol bag (polarguard 3D) and also a reasonable price. I've only found one at all, and it was over $500.

At any rate, I have zero experience thus far with hammocking, but I imagine on the down-vs-synthetic issue it's much like ground camping.

[Cannibal]

I just remembered: Cannibal, didn't you get your WB Syn UQ wet a couple of times on the AT?Also, Preachaman and every one with him got all gear soaked in an Ozark extreme storm.

So, guys, how did that work out?
Yep! Sucked too.:cursing:

Long story-short; Piss-poor set-up and a nasty storm where the wind shifted 90 degrees, resulted in my hammock acting as a swimming pool. I was not in it; I was guarding my down topquilt over in the shelter. Because the hammock was unweighted, bunches of water pooled on the top of my uq. When the storm passed, I went out and dumped the water out of the hammock and uq. There was a puddle several inches deep on top of the uq. The insulation did get a little wet, but not as bad as I thought it would have been. I dried the hammock best I could using a pack towel and unzipped the uq a few inches (love that fancy zipper).

I was warm enough through the night. Wasn't a good night going to sleep in a wet hammock with a damp uq when temps were in the high 20s; buy by-golly I did it! The hammock was dry by morning and the uq seemed fairly dry inside. If I hadn't of left my boots out in the open in the rain so that they could freeze solid by morning....it might have been an OK morning.:rolleyes: Why is it the only way I learn a lesson is through pain and suffering?

[DougTheElder]

Recent posts about large tarps in high winds have had me thinking about how I should be prepared, and what I would actually do, in the event of an absolute tarp failure in blowing, drenching rain. In this situation, the immediate concern is not whether my quilts are down or synthetic, DWR, or not, etc., but what is the appropriate first reaction. My plan, for now, is to protect the insulation as quickly as possile. To that end, I have purchased an over-sized 3-mil trash bag that I will keep immediately accessible. If my tarp blows away, my first reaction will (hopefully) be to stuff my quilts and other insulating clothing that may be loose in the hammock into that bag. Actually, I think the hammock and all its contents will go into the bag. Then I'll worry about getting myself dry. I'd rather be left standing naked in a freezing rain holding a sack of quilts than to be naked under a wad of saturated quilts. (Try to get past the visualization.:scared:) What is your first response plan?

To stay on topic: I have only down quilts and have only been wet as a result of condensation, but I plan to get synthetic alternatives to use when high humidity, fog, rain, etc., coupled with poor drying conditions are expected. Summer humidity in the South is often such that it doesn't matter if it's raining or not.

[TinaLouise]

I'm on the coast of NC, very near to SC. Humidity is a problem here. I have down over quilts and a down sleeping bag (not used with my hammock though). Before getting my hammock, I've been through some really awful storms in my tarp/tent. The worst storm I've weathered kept me up all night just wiping the inside walls of my tarp (the rain or very heavy condensation was coming through). I must have fallen asleep because I woke up the next morning feeling pretty warm. I had one of my down quilts over me and my exped mat under me. After getting up, I discovered the bottom edge of my quilt, where it was on the ground, was soaked but the down inside was still sort of dry-ish. (maybe not fluffed up as high as usual) But under me, under the exped pad, was a huge pool of water. My camp towels were soaked with water. I packed up. I think if I'd had the sleeping bag it would have been much worse as the cover of it isn't waterproof. My quilt has the coated waterproof silnylon cover on it. I think doing everything you can to keep your stuff dry, weather it's down or synthetic will do a lot for how well you can survive a really difficult situation. I'm fixing to make myself a climashiedl uq instead of a down one simply because It's easier to work with than stuffing a quilt with down. If I don't end up liking it after I test it out, I know I'll be ordering some down and making another one.

[lori]

So far:

synthetic is cheaper and easier to work with for DIY - I get that. I think that when you work with simpler designs this tradeoff is less of an issue. In another thread it was pointed out that some of the smaller quilt models are the same cost... for DIY, i have worked with synthetic but the notion of sewing baffles and handling down scared me. I have seen on the Garlington website the "bag of feathers" - essentially a down quilt without baffles - that would not be beyond me, but the baffles do have a purpose and having a multifunction piece of gear is a bit more important to me.

Having two ways of protecting quilts sounds reasonable to me. I carry the heavier duty trash/compactor bag anyway, and will be taking the driducks poncho anyway. I'd be inclined to stuff everything in the pack and stuff the whole works in the bag, in a worst case situation.

I have also thought that the tarp, if not damaged too badly (say a couple guyout loops give way and there are some tears) might make a quick and dirty hammock wrapper to keep the essential gear out of the elements in the worst storm. I have also thought of making mods to the HH stock tarp to make it an undercover if I don't sell the ULB I'm not using for anything but loaning to others.

Keep the anecdotes coming, the more you know, the better prepared we are. :)

I made a synthetic underquilt, full sized, that just didn't hang right on the HH - I've been keeping it to re-use the components to make a smaller UQ, probably something similar to the Yeti. After trying that out I find that my skills are best suited to finding the appropriate gear on the internet and clicking the Paypal button. :D

[Coldspring]

Everyone always tells me that synthetics are much heavier, but I can't find a down 30 degree bag that's significantly lighter than my military patrol bag (polarguard 3D) and also a reasonable price. I've only found one at all, and it was over $500.


http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=69

[lori]

Synthetics have gotten much better than they used to be, and in my experience the only real downside to them now is that they don't last as long. Everyone always tells me that synthetics are much heavier, but I can't find a down 30 degree bag that's significantly lighter than my military patrol bag (polarguard 3D) and also a reasonable price. I've only found one at all, and it was over $500.

At any rate, I have zero experience thus far with hammocking, but I imagine on the down-vs-synthetic issue it's much like ground camping.

I agree that synthetics are much better than they were (I had synthetic bags in the 70s that would have made fine anchors) but I have a synthetic quilt and a down quilt that are not much different in size or temperature range. The down quilt is lighter and packs down to a third of the size of the synthetic; I can fit two of the down quilts in the same space in my pack as the synthetic.

I don't think I run as much of a risk being wet as when I was on the ground. This may be an error in my thinking. But I am a three season four season hiker, by which I mean, my location will change in winter - I will be cold but not necessarily wet and definitely not snowed on. I will be on the coast and while there is still a danger of storms I do watch the weather forecasts and have yet to get caught in it. I like to think being careful and avoiding times and places where I'm most likely to get wet will prevent it, however, I'm trying here to be proactive and plan for the eventual unexpected deluge.

[Cruiser161]

...I have also thought of making mods to the HH stock tarp to make it an undercover...

This seems like a useful idea. I have seen a thread on the topic, but looked and cannot find it--anyone seen it?

[east_stingray]

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=69

You quickly pointed out that it could be had for under the $500 I quoted, and for that I thank you. I couldn't find a quality one for that cheap when I was looking. I still have problems forking over $330 for a bag. Maybe I'm just not being reasonable, but I paid $40 for the military bag. It does weigh somewhere between two and three pounds, however.

I think with a down bag like that I would still want a synthetic in case I knew that the weather was going to be bad on a particular trip. Maybe I just need to get better at staying dry.

[east_stingray]

For those of you who use quilts exclusively, is it a hard switch to make when you've been bag camping your whole life? I've known people who ground camped with quilts, and I never understood how they could do as good of a job keeping you warm. I thrash a lot in my sleep and I'm afraid I'd end up with an open edge or something.

Keep in mind that to date I haven't done any hammock camping. After getting some awesome direction from this site I put in a BB order with Brandon.

[Cannibal]

For those of you who use quilts exclusively, is it a hard switch to make when you've been bag camping your whole life? I've known people who ground camped with quilts, and I never understood how they could do as good of a job keeping you warm. I thrash a lot in my sleep and I'm afraid I'd end up with an open edge or something.
Not at all. In fact, it was probably one of the easiest transitions I've ever made. It helps that it simply makes sense. ;) As for the open edges, I find that I move less under a quilt. The only time I've had any tangle or draft issues was when using a silk liner in a vain attempt to gain a few degrees of warmth. I'm convinced that it is the confinement (bag) that makes me toss and turn in my sleep. Take a blanket with you next time you go camping and see how it works for you; I think you'll be surprised.

[east_stingray]

Not at all. In fact, it was probably one of the easiest transitions I've ever made. It helps that it simply makes sense. ;) As for the open edges, I find that I move less under a quilt. The only time I've had any tangle or draft issues was when using a silk liner in a vain attempt to gain a few degrees of warmth. I'm convinced that it is the confinement (bag) that makes me toss and turn in my sleep. Take a blanket with you next time you go camping and see how it works for you; I think you'll be surprised.

Good idea. I know that I thrash a lot at home too, but it could be that it won't be the issue I'm making it out to be. I was just hesitant to drop the money or a real quilt before knowing if it will work. Your suggestion to just take a blanket I already have is a good one. I'll just have to do it when I'm camping closer to the car and not doing a bunch of miles.

[William Hayes]

I use a jacks r better weather shield and have never had an issue with my uq getting wet even is some pretty wicked weather

[Cannibal]

Good idea. I know that I thrash a lot at home too, but it could be that it won't be the issue I'm making it out to be. I was just hesitant to drop the money or a real quilt before knowing if it will work. Your suggestion to just take a blanket I already have is a good one. I'll just have to do it when I'm camping closer to the car and not doing a bunch of miles.
Well, if push comes to shove, you can always follow the advice of DougTheElder and opt for the wide quilts that JRB sells. I think you'd have a difficult time getting out from under one of those on a cold night. Your brain doesn't want to be cold either....it'll keep you under those quilts. :D

[east_stingray]

Well, if push comes to shove, you can always follow the advice of DougTheElder and opt for the wide quilts that JRB sells. I think you'd have a difficult time getting out from under one of those on a cold night. Your brain doesn't want to be cold either....it'll keep you under those quilts. :D

I haven't looked at the specs yet, but I am trying to keep my weight down. I'm already going to be packing heavier with a hammock than I was with a bivy, so to make this switch palatable I'm going to have to add weight gradually and hope my back doesn't notice :D

It could be that I won't have a problem with it anyway when I sleep in a hammock. If I'm comfortable I probably won't thrash as much. I think part of the reason I do it now is because I wake up so much in the middle of the night.

[east_stingray]

If I decide to do my cold weather camping in a hammock, I might end up with a setup like the peapod anyway, which would make it not a problem. If they fit the BB, that is.

[Cannibal]

BillyBob has used his PeaPod on his BB with fair results if I remember correctly.

[warbonnetguy]

hard to beat a torso uq, a short ccf leg pad that you should be carrying anyway, and a 48" wide tq as far as warmth-weight goes. the pea pod can be a light option too if you don't need to add additional top or bottom quilts. not sure about the pea pod fitting the blackbird very well though. i believe the snugfit does according to what i read here.

[Peter_pan]

First, in hundreds of wet hammock nights I've never wet a down UQ or TQ...That said I have had some minor dampness issues that were always cured with a few hours of use (body heat)

Good, light and cheap is a myth.... Pick any two only and there are many choices.... And everything is relative.... one persons reasonable figure is the next persons expensive.

For UQ at the same advertised temp ratings, down will be lighter, more compressible and more expensive (yet actual cost can be quite close in many cases).... If one really needs dry insurance ocassionally add a DDP w/WS Mod at 8 oz the Down UQ rated at 25-30* will be 21 oz or so and adding 8 brings it to 29oz which will be lighter and probably less bulk than the synthetic UQ rated 25-30*.... And in good season you can revert to just the down UQ....

Pan

[Doctari]

Fear of getting my quilts wet is why my tarp is so big.

But so far I have gotten just a little (less than 5%?) of my sleeping bag wet, one time! The one time I used a pack cover.

I sort of beleve that wet insulation is a "Non issue" but there are many times that I live in a fantasy land, so, , , , , , , , ,

[east_stingray]

Fear of getting my quilts wet is why my tarp is so big.

But so far I have gotten just a little (less than 5%?) of my sleeping bag wet, one time! The one time I used a pack cover.

I sort of beleve that wet insulation is a "Non issue" but there are many times that I live in a fantasy land, so, , , , , , , , ,

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure just how big of an issue it is. Like I said, I've never had a down bag. I've got a couple of down jackets, but they've all got GTX shells.

[BillyBob58]

BillyBob has used his PeaPod on his BB with fair results if I remember correctly.

Correct. Maybe a little better than fair, but not quite as good as with the Claytor NN. it's just a little high on the right "wall" side. Easily corrected with a light top quilt, and there are some advantages to a top quilt approach with a PeaPod. Of course, do to weight issues, you have to try and balance the weight of a TQ plus PeaPod top half vs temp- you could end up with way more warmth than you need and too much weight.

[lori]

east_stingray:

For ground sleeping, the Ray Way quilt (aforementioned bulky quilt) with a draft stopper is aces. I used it in a tent prior to getting off the ground and was much warmer than the cheap mummy bag I had before. You have to make them yourself, the alpine version is bulky indeed, but it is about a hundred dollars and a few hours of your time for quality warmth (to 20F, if you are a warm sleeper) and comfort. I do not know what kind of insulation it is, and Ray Jardine is quirky enough that he will not tell you - I can say that it's not climashield XP as I have some of that also - it's much loftier, lighter and softer than climashield. I had enough material left that I made a hat to match; I haven't used it because it's warm enough that it makes my head sweat, so I now wear a simple breathable pullover hat.

Not sure what you consider cold weather camping - are you an above zero kind of guy, or a twenty below camper? For me, cold is about 30-34F, and a couple of 3 season quilts from Jacks R Better do fine. I take a pad for insurance - if I know it's going to be mid 30s there's a chance of it going lower.

And now I contribute to thread drift - but we learn things from that too. :)

[BillyBob58]

Fear of getting my quilts wet is why my tarp is so big.

But so far I have gotten just a little (less than 5%?) of my sleeping bag wet, one time! The one time I used a pack cover.

I sort of beleve that wet insulation is a "Non issue" but there are many times that I live in a fantasy land, so, , , , , , , , ,

I think a careful, experienced hiker could possibly hike a life time and not get his/her down wet. Especially off the ground in a hammock. Even if some rain blows on things, a good DWR should keep you out of trouble 99% of the time. As long as you can dry the surface off before you pack up.

Though, as already posted, I have seen people get wet from falling tree limbs and tarps springing leaks, those things are admittedly pretty unusual. For example, I have not seen snow break a limb off and puncture a tarp since June 85. And has any body else here seen that happen? I didn't think so, so the odds are pretty low. Though other things happen, even if just making a mistake, as Cannibal's story shows. And Preachaman if we ever hear from him on this.

But most of us are going to stay dry most of the time, I would think. So if 99% of a long hiking career is dry, most of us will probably opt for the lighter, way more compressible, keep it's loft forever down. And if in the unlikely event we should ever get really wet, just bail out. If going home or to town relatively quickly is not an option, and severe hypothermia therefore a possibility, some may rethink the down vs CS choice. Me, I like to use a mixture.

It seems a more likely problem for the experienced hammock hanger is gradual loss of loft due to fog and/or condensation. As has been reported by a couple of folks here, for example. But drying the surface with a camp towel may solve most of the wet shell problem if sunshine is not available and you must pack up and go. Or, maybe that DryDucks poncho will keep all of the surface moisture off. I plan to try one. As for internal condensation, that could be trickier. For example, I still can't figure out why my friend has complained about loss loft in both TQ and PeaPod on 2 dif trips- surface moisture did not seem to be a problem on either trip, though there was some fog on one trip. But we both had PeaPods on the 2nd trip, and I had no problems. ( I was totally synthetic on the 1st trip, and moisture control was never a worry or a concern).

But I chose the down pod on the second trip, and a down vest as part of my otherwise syn clothing and sleep system. I stayed dry and lofty under my JRB tarp for the week in hail, sleet, snow and WIND! I could not detect any loss of loft. But you better believe that, deep in the Rockies over a full days hike from my car and even much farther from any town, protecting that down was ever on my mind!

[BillyBob58]

I do not know what kind of insulation it is, and Ray Jardine is quirky enough that he will not tell you - I can say that it's not climashield XP as I have some of that also - it's much loftier, lighter and softer than climashield. I had enough material left that I made a hat to match; I haven't used it because it's warm enough that it makes my head sweat, so I now wear a simple breathable pullover hat.......)

Well, if not CS, I wonder just what the heck it is? A synthetic much lighter and loftier than CS? :confused:

[east_stingray]

east_stingray:
Not sure what you consider cold weather camping - are you an above zero kind of guy, or a twenty below camper? For me, cold is about 30-34F, and a couple of 3 season quilts from Jacks R Better do fine. I take a pad for insurance - if I know it's going to be mid 30s there's a chance of it going lower.

And now I contribute to thread drift - but we learn things from that too. :)

I'm originally from central IL, so winter camping sometimes meant -15 or -20. I'm currently farther south for my never-ending school career, but before the last two years of constant studying, I spent a fair amount of time in Wyoming and Montana. Not sure what the coldest I ever hit up there was.

I'm going to have to mull over this quilt thing. I have an old queen-sized down bed quilt that has seen better days and could probably be converted if I thought about it and enlisted the help of my two seamstress family members.

[I Splice]

You quickly pointed out that it could be had for under the $500 I quoted, and for that I thank you. I couldn't find a quality one for that cheap when I was looking. I still have problems forking over $330 for a bag. Maybe I'm just not being reasonable, but I paid $40 for the military bag. It does weigh somewhere between two and three pounds, however.

I think with a down bag like that I would still want a synthetic in case I knew that the weather was going to be bad on a particular trip. Maybe I just need to get better at staying dry.

How many times have you gotten your sleeping bag wet?

Quality for cheap. I look for that a lot too. Campmor has a couple of adequate down bags in th $120 to $140 range.

For some ultra-light backpackers, 3 pounds would be 60% of the weight that they carry. The weight and bulk of the bag could force a heavier backpack and so on. On the other hand, Ray Jardine hates down, so it is possible to be an ultra-light backpacker and eschew (gesundheit!) down.

The military generally use a different temperature rating system than other folks. There are a bunch of sleeping bag warmth standards (and they are all suspect), but since the military is concerned with young, well-conditioned, highly active men, the kind of people that sleep warm, the military temperature ratings reflect that.

I've considered buying military surplus down bags but there just wasn't enough loft to take me anywhere near the bag's temperature rating.

You just can't compare temperature ratings and weight, you also need to know that the bags were rated using comparable standards. To pull some numbers out of my hat for an example, your 30° bag might be comparable to a 40° bag from Western Mountaineering and 35° bag by ISO 15831. That's probably the correct ordering of the same bag measured by different standards, though the numbers are made up. In any case, I'm reasonably certain that a Western Mountaineering down bag with the same temperature rating would be warmer, pack smaller, last longer, and cost more.

Of course, the higher the design temperature, the larger percentage of the total weight is in the cover, lining, zipper, & etc. So, for warm weather bags, the weight of the insulation matters less than it does for cold weather bags. Note that Ray Jardine recommends quilts; no zipper, not much of a bottom, and no hood. That helps reduce the synthetic weight and bulk penalty.

That's essentially why I wear synthetically insulated clothes but sleep in down. For the small amount of insulation in my jacket and pants, there is not much of a weight advantage to down and the bulkiness disadvantage of synthetics is bearable. If I was camping in the winter in Minnesota, I'd have to reevaluate but I don't do that.

[I Splice]

I've got two experiences:

In the first one, I was set up in a cathedral ring of a redwood tree. The new trees were probably over 100 feet tall. The fog/rain/mist would condense on the upper branches and then fall onto my tarp in huge drops. I think that the drops actually sprayed through my silnylon tarp. My Peapod got damp. The down seemed unaffected. I pitched my spare silnylon tarp under the first and solved the problem.

In the second, I was hiking in a area where hammocks are forbidden. I got drenched in an afternoon thunderstorm. My down bag was in a garbage bag but I hadn't sealed it well enough. There were 2 or 3 fist-sized patches where the down was soaked near the head but the rest of the down was fine. It took a few hours for my body heat to dry out my wool shirt and sleeping bag. I started off cold that night but work up warm.

I wear synthetic insulating layers to give me some insulation, even if my down gets soaked. BTW, when washing a sleeping bag, it's takes some work to get the down saturated with water.

[east_stingray]

Good info to ponder, Splice. I did know that all the bag ratings were different (and mostly unreliable). I'm a young guy in reasonably good shape, and from what I've read, the military sleep system is rated based on wearing their long underwear (which I have) while in the bag.

I generally take them about 10 degrees above what they're rated at and have gone below that without too many problems. I also use the bivy that goes with the set (which is supposed to add 10 or 15 degrees). I don't figure that in to my 10 above system.

When bivy camping in the rain (it rains EVERY time I backpack or camp), the top part of my bag usually gets wet from condensation. So, in total that's about 5 or 6 trips with this setup where it's been reasonably moist. Perhaps the DWR shell would have stopped it.

[TinaLouise]

For those of you who use quilts exclusively, is it a hard switch to make when you've been bag camping your whole life? I've known people who ground camped with quilts, and I never understood how they could do as good of a job keeping you warm. I thrash a lot in my sleep and I'm afraid I'd end up with an open edge or something.

Keep in mind that to date I haven't done any hammock camping. After getting some awesome direction from this site I put in a BB order with Brandon.

I made two down quilts (summer 40 degree rated & winter 0 degree rated). My first couple of trips (tent camping) with the quilts, I packed a sleeping bag too. Found myself just using the quilts, so I ditched the bag!! Haven't packed/used a sleeping bag since!!! I've found that as far as sleeping and trashing around, that I do way less of that with the quilts. Really, I'm not even as much aware of moving around because I'm sleeping much better. Now that I've "gone off the deep end" (that's what all my tent buddies think) and started using a hammock, the quilts are working even more effectively at keeping me warm. I think it was Cannibal that mentioned using a silk liner and it not working so well. I too used one with my sleeping bag(worked great there) and tried it w/the quilts (not so great). I'm no longer using the silk liner either.

sorry guys about diversing into another topic within this topic, but you gotta understand that I've "gone off the deep end" ;)

[Cannibal]

sorry guys about diversing into another topic within this topic, but you gotta understand that I've "gone off the deep end" ;)
Happens; you aren't alone. :rolleyes::D

[Coffee]

I've got two experiences:

In the first one, I was set up in a cathedral ring of a redwood tree. The new trees were probably over 100 feet tall. The fog/rain/mist would condense on the upper branches and then fall onto my tarp in huge drops. I think that the drops actually sprayed through my silnylon tarp. My Peapod got damp. The down seemed unaffected. I pitched my spare silnylon tarp under the first and solved the problem.

In the second, I was hiking in a area where hammocks are forbidden. I got drenched in an afternoon thunderstorm. My down bag was in a garbage bag but I hadn't sealed it well enough. There were 2 or 3 fist-sized patches where the down was soaked near the head but the rest of the down was fine. It took a few hours for my body heat to dry out my wool shirt and sleeping bag. I started off cold that night but work up warm.

I wear synthetic insulating layers to give me some insulation, even if my down gets soaked. BTW, when washing a sleeping bag, it's takes some work to get the down saturated with water.

That was pretty much my experience. I have a TNF down jacket that I bought on my southbound AT hike. I wore it almost daily for 3 months and used it as either a pillow or wraped around my feet at night. It saw a lot of use in a little time.

Long story short I thought it would be a good idea to hold a fish against it and clean fish wearing it. Not the smartest thing to do when animals around. So I tried submerging it in a washing machine full of water. Long story short it took a lot of effort and time to get and hold it under water. Soaking it wasn't as easy as I thought. I don't think I got it all the way wet.

After that and getting my quilts damp with dew (in a shelter or cowboy camping) I'm not concerned with getting them wet.

[warbonnetguy]

BTW, when washing a sleeping bag, it's takes some work to get the down saturated with water.


good point, it really does seem to have some natural water resistence.

[warbonnetguy]

i'm guessing alot of folks might get their down pretty wet once or twice and then they learn pretty quick to take precautions to keep it from happening again. sure there are freak accidents, but i agree with BB; in a hammock, you should be able to stay alot drier than on the ground and keep your down dry enough.

[Coldspring]

The military generally use a different temperature rating system than other folks. There are a bunch of sleeping bag warmth standards (and they are all suspect), but since the military is concerned with young, well-conditioned, highly active men, the kind of people that sleep warm, the military temperature ratings reflect that.

I've considered buying military surplus down bags but there just wasn't enough loft to take me anywhere near the bag's temperature rating.



Does the military have any decent gear or clothing? The uniforms I've looked at were low quality and poorly sewn. The bags I've seen were heavy, cheap looking, and bulky...they'd take up most of a backpack by theirselves. And how do they wear those boots? Are they comfortable? Isn't a lot of military gear made by prison labor? I know there's a difference in a $40 military surplus item and a $300 WM item, but you have to consider that one weighs less than half the weight of the other and packs to a 1/3 of the size, that is considerable.

[Take-a-knee]

Does the military have any decent gear or clothing? The uniforms I've looked at were low quality and poorly sewn. The bags I've seen were heavy, cheap looking, and bulky...they'd take up most of a backpack by theirselves. And how do they wear those boots? Are they comfortable? Isn't a lot of military gear made by prison labor? I know there's a difference in a $40 military surplus item and a $300 WM item, but you have to consider that one weighs less than half the weight of the other and packs to a 1/3 of the size, that is considerable.

Field jacket liners and pants, wool glove liners, and that is about all the GI stuff I have any use for. Mickey mouse boots if I lived in snow country for sure. Get a Feathered Friends or Western Mtn bag. SOCOM units buy COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) they don't use the issue junk either.

[I Splice]

Does the military have any decent gear or clothing? The uniforms I've looked at were low quality and poorly sewn. The bags I've seen were heavy, cheap looking, and bulky...they'd take up most of a backpack by theirselves. And how do they wear those boots? Are they comfortable? Isn't a lot of military gear made by prison labor? I know there's a difference in a $40 military surplus item and a $300 WM item, but you have to consider that one weighs less than half the weight of the other and packs to a 1/3 of the size, that is considerable.

East_Stingray likes his sleeping bag. :confused:

I've not found any military item that I would want to take backpacking, except for a Swedish Army Match and an Esbit stove. The basic Esbit stove is reasonably light and cheap, even though it's made of steel. That stove was developed for the German Army. Tough the titanium wing Esbit stoves are much lighter. Now I'm experimenting with going stoveless. That's even lighter.

The "down" bags that I looked at had a noticeable amount of large feathers. They were also about $30. For almost a factor of 10 in cost, I could be convinced to go with gear that is a few ounces heavier. Those bags just weren't warm enough for me. If they looked like they could have kept me warm to anywhere near their rated temperature, they would have been a great deal.

I've heard a lot of people praise GI boots for comfort and durability. I've never had a pair and they weigh a lot more than anything I'd want to hike in does.

Military gear tends to be rugged and heavy.

I've not run into any real surplus that was shoddy. The filling in those sleeping bags was about the worst quality item that I've seen.

There are a bunch of terms stores use to precisely describe different kinds of gear. They range from "military style" like this shirt http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=529583 to "military spec" like this t-shirt http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=529584
to "new military: to "used military"

I'd expect shoddy workmanship and materials to be more common in military-style merchandise than in "new military" stuff.

I don't know about prison labor. There are millions of non-incarcerated Chinese, Vietnamese, who would fight to work for what a prisoner in the US makes.

[I Splice]

Does the military have any decent gear or clothing? The uniforms I've looked at were low quality and poorly sewn. The bags I've seen were heavy, cheap looking, and bulky...they'd take up most of a backpack by theirselves. And how do they wear those boots? Are they comfortable? Isn't a lot of military gear made by prison labor? I know there's a difference in a $40 military surplus item and a $300 WM item, but you have to consider that one weighs less than half the weight of the other and packs to a 1/3 of the size, that is considerable.

Sorry to reply twice but I love the lightweight polypropylene sock liners (A-A-50015C Type II). Very thin and light.

[east_stingray]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind about military gear, so we probably won't have much of an influence on you. I have the new military sleep system (2 bags and a bivy which all nest). I take the 30 degree bag with me a lot. I like it, the zipper means business, and it keeps me warm (and is also a low-impact color). It weighs 3lbs, which is about on par with the cheaper 20 and 30 degree down bags I've seen (the military uses polarguard 3d).

I don't use down, and when you compare the military bags with commercial synthetics, the weight is negligible and the price makes a big difference.