Hand Sanitizers

[nothermark]

I was looking for some other information and ran into this article on hand sanitizers. Given the way they seem to be replacing soap in basic hygiene it seems appropriate to share the message:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/16/health/hand-sanitizer-toxic-upwave/

Bottom line is the non alcohol ones are of dubious value. I am also leary of using the toxic alcohols on skin on a regular basis.

[SilvrSurfr]

They say I need to wash with soap even under my nails - how do I manage that?

[Likeapuma]

A quick scrub with just water usually gets the dirt/grime off, then a dab of alcohol hand cleaner (usually stolen from my wife's stash of Bed Bath & Beyond)

I always wondered what hospital employees think of these studies... "Foaming in" to every patient room they enter.

24 seconds doesn't sound so bad. For the 4 months my daughter stayed at a NICU, we were required to wash our hands for 3 minutes every time we entered.

[gmcttr]

They say I need to wash with soap even under my nails - how do I manage that?

With a nail brush of course.:laugh:

[Thumbs]

One thing nice about hand sanitizer is that the empties make nice containers for alcohol fuel. Bought a 3 pack at the dollar sore and have 3 2oz fuel bottles now.

[swoody126]

IMHO...

sanitizers are for killin germs, they don't clean

soap is for cleaning

too much attention is being given to sanitizers and sterile

and we have forgotten the simple act of washing, when we are dirty

look back in time, when kids played outside, got dirty, ate mud pies, fell off their toys, got bunged up and so on...

we washed up with soap n water, covered open wounds, splinted broken bones and went on

for me n mine, we use simple soap n water

http://www.drbronner.com/

http://jrliggett.com/

at home as well as on the trail

this opinion will, no doubt, raise a lot of discussion

let the fun begin

[frenchycamp]

IMHO...

sanitizers are for killin germs, they don't clean

soap is for cleaning

too much attention is being given to sanitizers and sterile

and we have forgotten the simple act of washing, when we are dirty

look back in time, when kids played outside, got dirty, ate mud pies, fell off their toys, got bunged up and so on...

we washed up with soap n water, covered open wounds, splinted broken bones and went on

for me n mine, we use simple soap n water

http://www.drbronner.com/

http://jrliggett.com/

at home as well as on the trail

this opinion will, no doubt, raise a lot of discussion

let the fun begin

+1. we live in a sterile world (in all sense).
Isn't it why we escape to the woods?
Sterile is for the O.R
Dirt is for the backcountry.

[nothermark]

I recall a friend of mine went through some kind of hand washing training where they sprayed his hands with a dye he had to scrub off. When he thought he was done they hit his hands with UV and the remaining die was quite illuminating. Getting rid of the dirt is not as simple as a quick rinse and rub. If you want an extreme on the other end google surgical hand scrub. There are several video's.

I'm not a big fan of sanitizer soaps or a lot of the sterile environment nonsense. I am concerned that people are trying to short cut basic soap and water hand washing by using chemical sanitizers that do not really clean the dirt that carries the microbes we want to avoid. I have to wonder how many times we blame bad water on bad sanitation. I also think there are techniques for how to do things that minimize the chances of problems. My real question is whether or not it will get discussed and folks will learn something. ;-)

[VictoriaGuy]

IMHO...

sanitizers are for killin germs <snip>
for me n mine, we use simple soap n water
<snip>

at home as well as on the trail

this opinion will, no doubt, raise a lot of discussion

let the fun begin

+1
Pouring all those 'antibacterial' chemicals into the environment couldn't be connected to the evolution of 'superbugs', could it?? :D

[SilvrSurfr]

With a nail brush of course.:laugh:

Of course, but who carries one around? Think of all the bacteria under them nails!

[swoody126]

Of course, but who carries one around? Think of all the bacteria under them nails!

¿ nail brush ?

it's called YOUR HAIR

w/ nails kept trimmed close, just wash your hair w/ soap n water

still simple, aint it?

[SilvrSurfr]

Well, in my experience, ya gotta have a coupla nails grown out a bit fer pikin yer nose, scratching at scabs and such.

[gmcttr]

Of course, but who carries one around? Think of all the bacteria under them nails!

For you gram weenies, just cut the handle off a toothbrush and you have a dual use tooth and nail brush.:woot:

[Rolloff]

For you gram weenies, just cut the handle off a toothbrush and you have a dual use tooth and nail brush.:woot:

No.

Just No :rolleyes:

[nothermark]

Of course, but who carries one around? Think of all the bacteria under them nails!

Knife tip works pretty well. ;-)

the dual use tooth brush does make a point!! ;-))

[TheQ]

Fresh, white ash from the campfire works great for me. (Natural source of lye). My friends always think I'm crazy, then they try it & everyone ends up washing with ash.

I'll finish that off with some alcohol sanitizer if I'm about to grub.

[Moraine]

They can also be used as a fire starter.

[nothermark]

Fresh, white ash from the campfire works great for me. (Natural source of lye). My friends always think I'm crazy, then they try it & everyone ends up washing with ash.

I'll finish that off with some alcohol sanitizer if I'm about to grub.

The ash is the active part of soap. Those that wonder can look up soap making. ;-)

[Seeker]

I carry a little hand sanitizer bottle for use as an emergency fire starter, and soap for all other hygiene. I can't take a sponge bath in alcohol and feel clean.

[OneClick]

IMHO...

sanitizers are for killin germs, they don't clean

soap is for cleaning

too much attention is being given to sanitizers and sterile

and we have forgotten the simple act of washing, when we are dirty

look back in time, when kids played outside, got dirty, ate mud pies, fell off their toys, got bunged up and so on...

we washed up with soap n water, covered open wounds, splinted broken bones and went on

for me n mine, we use simple soap n water

http://www.drbronner.com/

http://jrliggett.com/

at home as well as on the trail

this opinion will, no doubt, raise a lot of discussion

let the fun begin

Yup! People have become such idiots with hand sanitizers that many companies (J&J, P&G, etc) created posters on "how to wash your hands" and companies hang them up in bathrooms. Pathetic. I'm convinced they are used too often and cause more harm than good. It reminds me of the parents that won't take their babies outside for months because of "allergies" - good luck with the next 70+ years of their life!

I used hand sanitizer maybe 3 times in my life, every time was right before a vacation or event where I COULD NOT be sick. Just paranoid really.

It has it uses, especially in the backcountry. Then again, at 32 years old I should be to the point where I know how to do my paperwork and keep it off my hands!

To love to quote Dwight Schrute in this topic - "How bad are you at going to the bathroom?" LOL!

[Alf233]

You can wash your hand all you want and still make yourself sick preparing your food. Cross contamination while cooking is an issue as well on the trail. Keep hands and cooking surfaces clean. Unless you want to leave a paper trail all the way home. A little common sense can go a long way.:eek:

[ka8yiu]

I recall seeing something about using the campfire ashes to clean your dishes and have done that a few times. I can see how you can use the same method for your hands.

[canoebie]

When we host groups on canoe trips we hang a hand washing station. We ask everyone to wash after the bathroom, before cooking and before eating. We are very careful with cross contamination when cooking, especially from raw meat.

I do not use antibacterial soap or hand sanitizer. I do believe the notion of superbugs developing as a result of overuse of these things. I use soap and with the rinse for all dishes and eating ware, a bit of chlorine when I have groups. Water put onto the dishes is boiling hot.

Heat is also a great cleaner. Pots and pans get heated after cleaned, nothing can survive the heat of a good fire.

I have cooked commercially and had a food handlers license and understand the rationale behind generally accepted practices. While requiring a little more creativity in the field, there is no reason to skimp. What works in the kitchen works in the field.

[TheQ]

Just to clarify, not all hand sanitizers are created equal. The concern centers around antibacterial soaps & sanitizers. The mild antibiotic properties in those are feared to be compounding the problem of antibiotic resistant bacteria.
Antiseptic sanitizers that are alcohol based kill many viruses, bacteria & even is a fungicide.
Make sure it's at least 60% alcohol, hospitals & clinics use 70-90% alcohol to combat the particularly nasty viruses.
Random side not: Alcohol sanitizers initially caused religious controversy, but after testing, are permitted for use by religions that don't allow the consumption of alcohol.


Long version here.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_sanitizer

[nothermark]

While I agree with your assessment of sanitizers I think you will find that the original issue and the link was the fact that a significant number of people are relying on sanitizers rather than proper hand washing with soap and water. Even if one was going to do that I suspect they would need to use a lot more sanitizer than they do to get sufficient coverage and remove dirt protecting pathogen clusters that would be exposed when handling food. Sanitizers plus washing as in the medical community makes sense. Sanitizers instead of washing does not unless one has a severe water problem. Even then it is asking for trouble so one should be extra diligent.

[Chug]

I use it, but I dump it on.. and Keep my hands Wet with the stuff for over 2 minutes, while rubbing my hands like its in water. vs the small drop and 20 seconds its evaporated.

Not to mention does make good stove fire starter.

[Gqgeek81]

At home I just use soap, ideally either plain soap or with something natural like thymol rather than triclosan. I'm deeply concerned about the damage we've done to our micro biome with some of this stuff without realizing it.
On the trail where there isn't a proper sink, I like something to treat my hands with. In his Expedition Canoeing, Cliff Jacobson recommends something with Benzalkonium chloride in it as it continues to do its thing on the skin for hours while alcohol evaporates in seconds. This will be sold with the band aids, not with the purell.
I put mine in a 30ml spray bottle but I've decided 10ml would be plenty for 2 people x3 days with some to spare.

I have a little 3ml dropper of camp soap but don't really need this for my hands. A quick rinse with water and anything I've ever gotten on my hands on the trail comes right off. The spray kills anything I can't see after visiting the tree or before preparing a meal.

[Linkster]

I wash my hands and get a dab of sanitizer before and after cleaning fish.

[overthinker]

I'm always grossed out by the fact that using a hand sanitizer just leaves a rack of dead germs/bacteria/etc. on my hands. They're not really CLEAN, just...covered in dead stuff.

[nothermark]

That is at least part of the problem. Then there is the idea that they might not all be dead. Add to that the idea that not all contamination is biologically alive to begin with. It all comes back to a bit of soap and water does a better job.

What's even more interesting is that it probably takes less soap than it does chemical sanitizer as one can dilute a couple of drops of liquid soap in a fair amount of water and be effective. Hand sanitizer should not be diluted to maintain effective levels of the poisoning agent. 3 drops and a rub does not do it.

[Wise Old Owl]

Media has a clear agenda - CNN and your local news have a clear problem if everything on News was family oriented, rosy cozy - life was wonderful - YOU WOULD NOT WATCH!

Answer - they have been building a case that all chemicals are harmful to people. A constant preach from the pulpit of obscure things that "may" kill you down the road... in spite of are you ready to die?

Here is the real truth. Tylenol has killed more people. So troubling that they included Your toothpaste is more dangerous if you swallow. Your underarm deodorant will make you sick if you eat it... they all carry Warnings...


The Government sets the standards at - No label. Caution, Warning, Danger, Toxic.

Old English wood cleaner is labeled Toxic.

Triclosan is labeled Caution. It is used by hospitals for topical use for killing MERSA so it works at killing stuff, might not be your stuff - but someone might benefit.

Here is another truth ... products that include Triclosan neutralize odor. a small amount can remove skunk off a dog, in an hour or two.


Folks I could put a label and a msds link but when folks tell you what to be afraid of, scope the addenda... Otherwise feel free to look it up... you will always be able to see both sides.

I bath in TRICLOSAN TWICE A WEEK - NO WORRIES. (its in Hunters Soap)

[perdidochas]

They say I need to wash with soap even under my nails - how do I manage that?

with a scrub brush.

[perdidochas]

+1
Pouring all those 'antibacterial' chemicals into the environment couldn't be connected to the evolution of 'superbugs', could it?? :D

most hand sanitizers simply use alcohol. Superbugs don't adapt to alcohol. the problem is in the antibacterial soaps, which use a different kind of chemical to kill bacteria. Bacteria do adapt to those.

[nothermark]

The root issue with hand sanitizers is the non alcohol versions have a persistent chemical that is starting to cover the bottom of our water sources where it poisons the ecosystem. Overuse has also helped the super bugs develop. As far as camping use it is less effective and more weight than basic soap and water. A good scrub followed with an alcohol sanitizer as a finish would make sense if one really needs hospital clean.

FWIW there is a comment about "chemicals" that is worth addressing. Anyone who has a clue understands our whole world is made of various chemicals and their compounds. The problem is when Industry comes up with something "new" to add so they can have a advertising point to use to persuade people to buy their product over the other guys. That starts a race to see who can do the most special additive to solve a non problem for the advertised use but possibly create other problems in our lives. Hand sanitizer in general and the sanitizer additives in soap are good examples of overkill like that. There are books full of other examples.

[Quattro15]

Hand sanitzers also help create "Supergerms" since they'll only kill 99.9% of germs. That .01% has the ability to multiply on your skin since the rest are dead. This allows things to germinate that are immune to the sanitizer. It's ALWAYS better to just wash germs off you then to kill them with a chemical. This goes for kitchen countertops and the like as well. You shouldn't use anything that states it kills 99.9% of germs. Those few that aren't killed will just take their place and eventually lysol and hand sanitizer and things of that nature won't be effective any more and there will be germs that have had the opportunity to evolve without competition that can't be killed very easily.

Sounds like a science fiction novel waiting to happen.

[Debi Jaytee]

I don't use hand sanitizer, never have. I also don't believe in anti bacterial soap. Plain soap and water worked for years, it's only the last 10-15 that the anti bacterial craze has hit. Now we have superbugs, food allergies (how any kids were allergic to peanuts 40 years ago?), and wipes for every little thing. I remember a friends grandfather telling us when we were quite young "a little dirt never hurt anyone". I believe that. Our "germ free" world will be our demise.

[Gqgeek81]

I'm always grossed out by the fact that using a hand sanitizer just leaves a rack of dead germs/bacteria/etc. on my hands. They're not really CLEAN, just...covered in dead stuff.

If that grosses you out, let me introduce you to the idea of the human biome.
The average human is made of 1 trillion cells and yet you are covered by, and infected with 10 trillion cells from various microbes. We know very little about these little guys at this point, but we do know many of them are essential for health and it appears diversity is the key, not wiping them out.

I've seen reports that showed a cycle of antibiotics will change the population demographic in your intestine for up to 4 years before it gets back to normal. There's also bee interesting studies that showed giving gut bacteria from lean rat to a fat rat helped the fat rat lose weight.

Doctor's are also now starting to use stool implants. Either actual fecal mater or a lab grown colony of bacteria from a 'donor' which is inserted into the patient (yea like that) to help re-colonize their gut.

Its not all in your gut though. What blows my mind is that the specific colonies growing on your skin vary wildly even from one finger to the next.

We've adapted to all of this. None of this is some new threat the news outlet needs to scare us with, if anything the message may be ... hey wait... maybe microbes aren't all bad.

I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now we have hand soaps or bathroom cleaners with active cultures in them like yogurt.

[wesbri]

The average human is made of 1 trillion cells and yet you are covered by, and infected with 10 trillion cells from various microbes.

So true. I saw a quote somewhere to the effect that microbiologists don't consider the human body to be infested/infected with bacteria. It is more accurate to consider humans as simply an ecosystem for bacteria and microscopic critters too numerous to mention.

Also, the quote about "a little dirt won't hurt you" is exactly right. I'm convinced that the numerous allergies suffered from my city-girl wife are simply because she grew up squeaky clean and didn't have enough exposure to things to develop natural immunities. My kids started out with troubling allergies and respiratory problems, but seem to be outgrowing them now. Again, I suspect it is from natural exposure to normal amounts of allergens.

[Gqgeek81]

Also, the quote about "a little dirt won't hurt you" is exactly right. I'm convinced that the numerous allergies suffered from my city-girl wife are simply because she grew up squeaky clean and didn't have enough exposure to things to develop natural immunities. My kids started out with troubling allergies and respiratory problems, but seem to be outgrowing them now. Again, I suspect it is from natural exposure to normal amounts of allergens.

Check out HSO's Homeostatic Soil Organism's.
We still know very little so chances are what they are using for HSO's is partly or even mostly wrong and we just don't know it, but the idea is very interesting.

[WildernessHerb]

I work in a hospital. I'm in the OR and the ER. Our policy is "foam in foam out". This policy was written by somebody who never sees patients. If I followed the policy my hands would be cracked and bleeding. I always wash my hands if the patients were extremely ill. I wear a lot of gloves to keep down on to much washing. I use sanitizer as a quick clean. I haven't been sick since if worked here. The main thing is clean hands near your mouth, food, and wounds.

[Sailor]

If you're not visiting patients, I'm advised cleaning hands of germs only benefits you if you stick a finger in your eye/nose/mouth. That may or may not be. The other day, a bunch of us moved an old ladies furniture from her house to her new old folks home. Most of us didn't wear gloves. I happened to notice the youngest person in our crew, as we finished up and waltzed out the front lobby, take a pump of the ever present sanitizer. None of us olders did. Changing of the guard. He'll live to a 100, you bet. I'm still rebelling from being told to wash my hands before dinner by Mom. Staying clean when hiking? Ha!

[perdidochas]

Hand sanitzers also help create "Supergerms" since they'll only kill 99.9% of germs. That .01% has the ability to multiply on your skin since the rest are dead. This allows things to germinate that are immune to the sanitizer. It's ALWAYS better to just wash germs off you then to kill them with a chemical. This goes for kitchen countertops and the like as well. You shouldn't use anything that states it kills 99.9% of germs. Those few that aren't killed will just take their place and eventually lysol and hand sanitizer and things of that nature won't be effective any more and there will be germs that have had the opportunity to evolve without competition that can't be killed very easily.

Sounds like a science fiction novel waiting to happen.

Alcohol based sanitizers do not help create supergerms. They work by destroying the cell wall and basically rupturing the bacteria. What you are saying is true of the non-alcohol based sanitizers.

[krshome]

Ok here a gross thing to think about. Lets say your doing your business #2 and you wipe butt you finger slips and you get some poo on you hand. Will just hand sanitizer get it clean or just smear it around? Well you still got poo on you hand! A good hand washing with soap and water is all I do, its has worked for hundreds of years. Ya I know gross but .... happens!

[midge14]

An easy way to clean under your nails, assuming you have fairly short nails, is to rub your fingertip / nail on the palm of your hand (side to side, up and down) while washing your hands, this at least helps to get some soap under there and provide some friction and movement.
At the hospital I work in the policy is to (apply hand sanitizer) 'pump in, pump out' of every patient room, wash hands when visibly soiled, after very sick / contagious patients and periodically throughout the day. This policy was just started two years ago, before that we were requried to wash our hands upon entering and leaving a patient room which is time consuming and dries out your hands. In the OR anybody operating must perform a sterile scrub, everyone else just uses gloves, hand sanitizer and hand washing.
Personally I can't stand the feel of hand sanitizer, so I prefer washing my hands. I also hate the way that any food I touch tastes after I've used hand sanitizer. To me hand sanitizer should be used when you simply don't have the time or resources to wash your hands, otherwise I prefer soap and water because it gets rid of considerably more.

[bruinfan]

I have heard you can drag your nails across a bar of soap before playing in the dirt like gardening for example.
I sing happy birthday twice while scrubbing every time before I use the toilet. Think about how dirty your hands are before you touch your clean private areas. Then wash up after too.

Seriously think about walking into a bar bathroom and all the things you touch.

[nothermark]

It's worth noting that skin is also ablative. The outer layer is dead and when one washes a layer peels off taking the dirt and the icky stuff with it. Hand sanitizers leave it all there. ;-)

FWIW the initial comments were aimed at folks who take hand sanitizer instead of soap and water. Let's hope they are back to a couple of drops of DR Bronners and some water instead of an ounce of alcohol gel.

[kerryandjane]

So how much water am to bring to wash my hands for 24 seconds every time I need to wash up?
+1 on the sterile comment. I say just wash up when you need to eat and after you fertilize the flowers......
Contradictory when it comes to my daughter though...... I'm OCD about keeping her clean. Sometimes I use soap, sometimes I use alcohol.

[IndyFace]

i work on ambulances and just from the comments (i haven't read the article yet, it's slow to load), i can tell i'm going to be proud haha. i HATE when people rely on hand sanitizer for cleanliness. you still have to wash your hands with SOAP and WATER. you don't need a lot of water to wash your hands. just enough to sud up the soap and then enough to rinse. so maybe 2 cups tops for each wash? yes hand sanitizer is convenient and smells good (scented) but it doesn't completely do the job. when you're camping, you should have access to water or you should have brought your own water, so tapping into that slightly for washing won't kill you. but i agree with kerryandjane, hand sanitizer (or cleansing wipes, or alternate between both) throughout the day and wash your hands with soap and water after bathroom breaks and before eating.

[OneClick]

Rubbing alcohol in a small contact solution bottle. BOOM!

[Firesong]

Just to clarify usage of alcohol based HS. They do not kill viruses. I was an rmt for 7 years and this fact was stressed. Had a client who was a doctor. She said that it was something they kept quiet. Mainly because it at least kills bacteria and the number of people who have poor sanitary habits is staggering. So you don't have to worry about superbugs/ virus's in that sense. When we are camping we always have a hand washing bucket with soap. We expect the kids to get dirty and have a good time. But soap for us after doing the do, or before dishes.

[K0m4]

I follow a strict hygene regimen: I wash my hands once a week. Whether they need it or not.

[Rolloff]

Dr Bonner's and water.

I do carry a very small bottle of alcohol sanitizer. I use it before and/or after, when cleaning game, cooking for others, before performing first aid, but only after and in addition to a good old fashion soap n water scrub up.

[nothermark]

So how much water am to bring to wash my hands for 24 seconds every time I need to wash up?
+1 on the sterile comment. I say just wash up when you need to eat and after you fertilize the flowers......
Contradictory when it comes to my daughter though...... I'm OCD about keeping her clean. Sometimes I use soap, sometimes I use alcohol.

Why bring any? While I agree that there are some places where water is hard to come by most folks camp where there is water so all one really needs to do is scoop a container so the rinse goes on the ground preferably away from the shore/bank.

[gnarus8429]

91% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol from the drug store is super effective on what appear to be clean hands. Straight 91% no pefume, gel, or other garbage just the stuff that kills the germs. Its much cheaper too. All the other are rubbish as I don't care how my hands smell afterwords nor am I concerned with moisturizing (all those things do is dilute the germ killing bit). Dirty hands do require a through soap and water wash as the alcohol can not penetrate the dirt. I'm a Detective that specializes in crime scenes. Nearly every time we work a scene the level of nasty is about 10 out of 10. I do both in those circumstances due to the biological materials that we are exposed to. We also apply it liberally to clothing at scenes as it kills bed bugs on contacts. So all in all I love the stuff. As for a back packing environment I carry some in the event that I come into contact with a particular nasty something, after cleaning fish, or the morning constitution. Bottom line is that doing both is the best in my opinion. Here is a link to the CDC article on the issue that I base my opinion on (along with my experience of not dying from all the blood borne pathogens up until now): http://www.cdc.gov/handwashing/show-me-the-science-hand-sanitizer.html

[nothermark]

I was going to drop this at least for a while until I read the CDC article. Thank You for posting it.

Given that the thrust of the thread was folks who stopped taking soap and water in favor of hand sanitizer it is quite interesting to find that dirt on the hands protects germs from the alcohol while soap is more effective against some of the common pathogens. That leads me back to my metaphorical soap box that taking a small squirt bottle of liquid soap is more effective than taking sanitizer gels both in effectiveness and in applying enough to do the job. It takes a lot less soap than gel. OTOH it also makes a case for packing extra cooking alcohol to do a rinse if desired after washing. It would also seem one could cut the alcohol with about a third water at the site and still be effective while keeping down carry weight. Ditto bleach if one is carrying that for water purification.

As far as reconstituted dried wipes go the alcohol is gone on the first drying. All that is left is residual modifiers used to protect the skin from the effects of the alcohol in the pad. Water and the modifier makes you feel good but does not kill anything. Single used sealed wet towelettes will still have the disinfectant but one would want to do a good cleanup first then use them as a final wipe to avoid the dirt from negating the effect of the alcohol on the pathogens.

FWIW this is the kind of knowledge base one needs when dropping "heavy" approaches in favor of something that looks simpler and lighter. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. It does give me a good excuse to build a wood fire to cook over then boil up a couple of quarts of drinking water that gets boiled for a while then dumped into the bottles to cool for the next day or whatever. Free fuel budget on that one. ;-)

[charadeur]

While backpacking what else can you do but alcohol based hand sanitizer? I don't want to waste drinking water and getting a parasite (however rare that may actually be) from untreated water is no better than a virus.

[ntxkayakr]

When backpacking in very dry areas where water must be carried for long distances some of the techniques mentioned a few times in this thread for an overall comprehensive approach make the most sense to me from both a scientific and practical stand point.
People in the Arab world will never shake your left hand even if you don't have a right hand. Right is for eating left for other things, like washing your feet and such.
When cleaning fish, processing game or handling raw meat of any kind use disposable gloves if you are careful how you remove them virtual no pathogens get on your hands. Then you are effectively reducing the transfer of pathogens to face, eyes, nose, mouth etc and can use a LOT less water cleaning after that job is done. Also slime does not get up under your fingernails so every time you go to eat something with hands you don't smell old dead raw fish, but perhaps you enjoy fermented fish sauce it IS popular in SE Asia.

High % denatured alcohol for stove or your indispensable whiskey or vodka should only be used to clean hands in last resort if water supply is dangerously low and many miles to next source.
What is this hand sanitizer stuff anyway? Sounds like an oxymoron, do they sell it on the shelf next to dehydrated water? LOL I am only joking. My 13 year old daughter has been using it for years, she does a lot of other illogical behavior that drives me nuts, dang kids.

[nothermark]

I'll add that sealed wet wet wipe type products in individual packs still have the alcohol and additives. The mistake is drying them out to save weight. Whenever you get to water wash up instead of building up a glaze on your hands, face and nether regions.

[slugbait]

Whatever did people do before hand sanitizer was invented? -Slugbait(who's been backpacking for 48 years)

[OneClick]

Whatever did people do before hand sanitizer was invented? -Slugbait(who's been backpacking for 48 years)

They all died. We're currently just a figure of something's imagination, I guess something like The Matrix :)

Well done on 48 years! I've only been backpacking for about 10, but never used sanitizer.

1. Wash your hands, but not obsessively like every 5 minutes
2. If you get sick (cold, flu, etc), suck it up and deal with it. Go all out with OTC medications if you want. Drink tons of water!
3. Regarding backpacking specifically, if you get "sick" from getting poo on your hands, you suck at going to the bathroom :)

[AKA Pete]

I must be the odd one. I usually just wipe my hands on my pants. But I do the best wash after breakfast and supper. Few ounces of warm water and my bandana followed by a baby wipe. I try and keep the camp site - and me - as food particle clean as I can to cut down on flies.

That's why I prefer colder weather.

[Floridahanger]

Not the only one, but, then, they do call me odd as well.

It's very simple actually.
1) Shake hand(s) vigorously to "remove" loose nasty.
2) Wipe hand(s) on shirt or pants.
3) Rinse with a little water. Done.

Done within view of others helps, since they will want to take care of the food at that time. Sit back and relax.

[GoatHanger]

3. Regarding backpacking specifically, if you get "sick" from getting poo on your hands, you suck at going to the bathroom :)
I laughed.

[genixia]

Just going to leave this out here. :)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/28/343798876/hey-youve-got-mites-living-on-your-face-and-i-do-too

Dr Bonners for me whenever possible. I carry a miniscule bottle of hand sanitizer for pack-on pee breaks and first aid purposes.

[Dunlop]

I like using the wet ones wipes, works for dishes and hands - just not for bathroom duty.

[OneClick]

I like using the wet ones wipes, works for dishes and hands - just not for bathroom duty.

I used these wipes for the first time when I lost my toileties bag hiking in 2 weekends ago and had to stop at CVS for a quick resupply. I picked up a travel pack of wipes, not sure what brand. They were convenient, but just getting them on my hands a bit made me smell like an airplane chemical toilet for the next hour. If they make an unscented version, I'm game.

[perdidochas]

+1
Pouring all those 'antibacterial' chemicals into the environment couldn't be connected to the evolution of 'superbugs', could it?? :D

the antibacterial chemicals in most hand sanitizers is alcohol, which can be a natural product.

[joefbtg28]

They can also be used as a fire starter.

+1 in 3 season trips I have been foregoing another fire starter sometimes because the alcohol on some tinder works soooo well.

[bkrgi]

Furthering on the discussion of chlorinated water here is a little food for thought... not sure to what truth it all fits in but seems to make sense and make one go hummm
http://www.foodrenegade.com/chlorinated-showers-baths-kill-gut-flora/

Personal I believe we as a Urban society are living in a too sterile of a environment.
For me living in a rural/farm environment and being exposed to what I have been, I should be DEAD, if you where to listen to all the propaganda, but so far am perfectly healthy.

I question, given all the propaganda, how the heck did the human race survive all these thousands of yrs when "cleanliness" wasn't even on the radar.
I do agree as a Urban society we do need a degree of sanitation to fend off the bad bugs and resulting casualties....but research can be taken further to further understand what all this "clean" does to the human system....have we truly gone to far and thus paying the price in a different form of casualties. The bugs may not be killing us but the chems may be??

As this discussion goes we can create many more questions than answers but as individuals we must sort through and do what works for self.....so goes with equipment choices on this whole forum....do what works for you...

Personally I will stick with soap and water ....and ingest a little dirt here and there ,tastes not bad but is a little gritty at times :laugh:

[GreatBigDave]

OOOhhh! Chlorine! so scary! Cholera must be better than chlorine. People used to life a full life and die at the ripe old age of 30 in low population densities. Diseases regularly killed off most of the people local to the outbreak. Now, we're all local.

Drink the water right out of the lake, see what a case of Giardia does to the serenity of your intestinal flora.

I agree - eat a little dirt, it's no more likely to hurt you than a little chlorine. Let's be reasonable.

Anybody notice the ad for shower and bath chlorine filter in the middle of the article?

[Raos]

Boil your hands for at least one minute. They are then safe to use.

[cjayflo]

Boil your hands for at least one minute. They are then safe to use.

I cooked one of my fingers in my stove on Saturday, does that count?

[meTpo]

+2 I am a nurse and understand the value of sanitizers in the hospital setting. However, at home or in the woods it's soap and water for me. The only time I reach for sanitizer in the woods is when I pull out my first aid kit to work on someone other than myself. The use of sanitizers in the hospital, for me, is more to keep a patient's germs from getting to me than vice-versa.

[sliggins1483]

dr. bronners for me three season, hand sanitizer in the winter and astringent with paper towels (for baby wipes). alcohol doesn't freeze,made the change after freezing dr.bronners and wipes on last years trip. to bad the the drugs got to gg allin other wise we would have are own living breathing filth test dummy. warning don't google gg allin before or after eating and possible nsfw :scared:

[sampson]

I just returned from 2 weeks in India. It is very primitive there - even in the capital city of New Dehli. Folks are not so hung up on being sterile, and it seems they don't get they everyday flu/cold that we do. They build up a much better immune system.

[Yoda'd]

I was preparing for walking the AT with daughter. The school nurse and my doctor pointed out a problem with hand sanitizers. They do not kill two particular germs that cause major problems on the trail. I posted a quick link to the conservancy that problem. The Dr wants pre and post bar soap washing for the "bathroom" usage. BTW, I had the same training with the substance put on hands first then told to wash my hands and was shocked at what was left.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/health-safety

[OneClick]

People must be rolling in piles of explosive diarrhea or something. Not that I'm special, but I'm really not getting anything on my hands in the first place that a quick wash won't cure.

Am I just an expert at doing #2?

[Yoda'd]

Should I dare mention this? https://youtu.be/mF4ZHfPOB94


Yes, it is a major problem because many people share the same privy at the shelters. Also, most hikers are in groups and if one of the hikers become ill likely over the distance several become ill soon after.

[Dux]

+1. we live in a sterile world (in all sense).
Isn't it why we escape to the woods?
Sterile is for the O.R
Dirt is for the backcountry.+1

Absent deep open wounds there is no need for sterile in our day to day world. Soap and water haved worked fine for the first five decades of my life.

[new2hf]

Roughly 3% of a humans body weight is microbial either internally (GI tract) or externally (skin and mucous membranes). If you could "sterilize" you hands they would pick up microbes that are all over anything you touch and in the air.
Pathogens is what microbes are called that are potentially harmful to humans. The major source of pathogens in nature is feces, from animals and humans, or from an person with a serious infection of some sort. Good personal hygiene when engaged in defecating and avoiding contact with sick humans is the majority of the battle.
Soap and water to get the dirt off is always wise because it lowers microbial counts but does not eliminate them. Your immune system handles most exposures unless they are highly contagious and this is not likely in a backpacking situation unless those around you are ill.
Stay clean, relax and have a great outdoor experience.

[joe_guilbeau]

The World Health Organization set forth guidelines for locations that do not have accesses to commercial hygienic hand cleaners.

• Isopropyl alcohol 99.8%: 751.5 ml (or about 25.5 ounces)
• Hydrogen peroxide 3%: 41.7 ml (or about 1.4 ounces)
• Glycerol 98%: 14.5 ml (or about 0.5 ounces)

WalMart Purchases:
$2.58 32-Fluid Ounce Vi-Jon 91% isopropyl Alcohol substituted for the 99.8% Isopropyl alcohol
$1.41 8-Fluid Ounces Swan Hydrogen Peroxide 3%
$6-$8 8-Fluid OuncesPropylene Glycol (Cigar Humidifier Solution of 50% Propylene Glycol and 50% Water) for Glycerol

I was a Biomedical Equipment Technician assigned to two Dialysis Clinics. The above WalMart/Cigar Store formulation will work just fine.

[chefkeith]

The World Health Organization set forth guidelines for locations that do not have accesses to commercial hygienic hand cleaners.

• Isopropyl alcohol 99.8%: 751.5 ml (or about 25.5 ounces)
• Hydrogen peroxide 3%: 41.7 ml (or about 1.4 ounces)
• Glycerol 98%: 14.5 ml (or about 0.5 ounces)

WalMart Purchases:
$2.58 32-Fluid Ounce Vi-Jon 91% isopropyl Alcohol substituted for the 99.8% Isopropyl alcohol
$1.41 8-Fluid Ounces Swan Hydrogen Peroxide 3%
$6-$8 8-Fluid OuncesPropylene Glycol (Cigar Humidifier Solution of 50% Propylene Glycol and 50% Water) for Glycerol

I was a Biomedical Equipment Technician assigned to two Dialysis Clinics. The above WalMart/Cigar Store formulation will work just fine.

I'm not big on hand sanitizers (except at work), but that's an awesome post!!

[Five Tango]

If someone carried a bottle normally used for lens cleaning but had isopropyl alcohol in it and used a little on his hand before and after the important activities when water is not available,wouldn't that be better than alcohol gel?I know it would have a tendency to dry the skin a bit but for a few days,what's the harm in that?

[Foresight]

I simply refrain from washing my hands. I also don't run to the doctor every time my farts smell weird, don't know the name of a single antibiotic and refrain from medication, period. I couldn't tell you the last time I felt any less than wonderful. Geebus, let your body work for ya. My immune system makes Rowdy Ronda Arouseme scared.

[OneClick]

I simply refrain from washing my hands. I also don't run to the doctor every time my farts smell weird, don't know the name of a single antibiotic and refrain from medication, period. I couldn't tell you the last time I felt any less than wonderful. Geebus, let your body work for ya. My immune system makes Rowdy Ronda Arouseme scared.

I minimize the hand washing as well. I used to go overboard with it. And even while exercising and eating healthy, I've been catching colds easier for some reason over the past few years and they stick around too long. I'm just getting over a cold now...August, come on!!

There is a guy at work that doesn't wash his hands enough, though. The funny thing is how conspicuous he is about it. No attempt to hide it...at least kick the urinal flusher with your foot man!!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/89379576/HF/seinfeld_hands.gif

[TominMN]

OOOhhh! Chlorine! so scary! Cholera must be better than chlorine. People used to life a full life and die at the ripe old age of 30 in low population densities. Diseases regularly killed off most of the people local to the outbreak. Now, we're all local.

Drink the water right out of the lake, see what a case of Giardia does to the serenity of your intestinal flora.

I agree - eat a little dirt, it's no more likely to hurt you than a little chlorine. Let's be reasonable.

Anybody notice the ad for shower and bath chlorine filter in the middle of the article?

Just noticed this old, resurrected thread.

Been drinking water from the lakes (BWCAW and Quetico) for almost 40 years. No filter, no boiling, no purifying tablets, NOTHING. Never, ever have contracted Giardiasis in that environment. Not once. Obviously careful about gathering water.

Hate sanitizers. Won't use them. People have been sucked in by marketing.

(End of soap box speech - pun possibly unintended.)

[Hanging Dragon]

In my experience the only real value of alcoholic hand sanitisers is when water is scarce or non existent (when I do desert trips and every drop of water is vital) and for lighting damp fires. Ray Mears recommends pine tar soap for various reasons but it smells clean, its anti bacterial and 'natural'. Im pretty sure over sanitisation is the cause of many medical problems. Our immune system needs to be exposed to germs to effectively counter them, especially children. I suppose it's where do you draw the line in our hyper-sensitive society. I don't give a s**t about a bit of mud on my hands and for me it's part of being outdoors.
Just my ten pence 'cents' or fils at the moment.

[joe_guilbeau]

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." ....Quote from Vern Law

If you are not aware of this virus (Vibrio Vulnificus), you might watch this local newscast story, one guy was wading, another did not even get in the water, but was pulling bait shrimp from a bait container.

So yeah, most of us will never encounter this virus, as it exists in salt brackish waters, however what you don't know can assuredly harm you, stay informed, stay safe.


https://youtu.be/aZIyjq0cCP8

[Hanging Dragon]

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." ....Quote from Vern Law

If you are not aware of this virus (Vibrio Vulnificus), you might watch this local newscast story, one guy was wading, another did not even get in the water, but was pulling bait shrimp from a bait container.

So yeah, most of us will never encounter this virus, as it exists in salt brackish waters, however what you don't know can assuredly harm you, stay informed, stay safe.


https://youtu.be/aZIyjq0cCP8

Yeah never heard of that virus, but i guess like you said I probably won't encounter it. I agree with you about staying informed, I just don't want to be a hypochondriac. The media does a fine job of convincing us the world is out to get us. I think common sense wins in most situations.
Thanks for the info

[Jimbeam]

think of the people that bite their nails... LOL

[TominMN]

I guess they're gonna die...

[Hanging Dragon]

Of Western Nail Virus :eek:

[chefkeith]

Of Western Nail Virus :eek:

God, I love a good pun! Brilliant!!!

[OneClick]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/89379576/see.jpg

[rand727]

I work in a hospital. I'm in the OR and the ER. Our policy is "foam in foam out". This policy was written by somebody who never sees patients. If I followed the policy my hands would be cracked and bleeding. I always wash my hands if the patients were extremely ill. I wear a lot of gloves to keep down on to much washing. I use sanitizer as a quick clean. I haven't been sick since if worked here. The main thing is clean hands near your mouth, food, and wounds.

Absolutely! I work in an ICU and ER. I also am part of the infection control team. The foam is great for a quick clean. Nothing beats soap and water, especially for some of the bugs out there! I echo your comment about clean hands near the mouth. Happy clean hanging!

[wagex]

if im out and about fishing / camping or what have you, a quick rinse in the river water is usually good for me, good nuff to snack chips and stuff, if im cooking il use fresh water i tote along and soap.

[nothermark]

The original post was aimed at the growing number of folks who were cutting pack weight by eliminating soap in favor of dried then rehydrated baby wipes. I thought to point out some of the issues. ;-)

I will point out another issue I saw reading the last few pages. If someone is out on their own they are messing with mostly their own basic bugs. It pays to keep the count down. Other than that nothing new. A bit of soap will do it. When in groups or the hospital setting one is messing with many different biological microcosms that one may not want to be part of. That is when soap, water, sanitizer and maybe a blowtorch are appropriate. All depends on what one is messing with.

[chefkeith]

Not that I'm too concerned with sanitizers, but I use these when doing offsite catering to pass health inspection:

http://www.amazon.com/Steramine-Quaternary-Sanitizing-Tablets-Sanitizer/dp/B000W09SF6/ref=sr_1_2?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1439871634&sr=1-2&keywords=Steramine

They are quaternary ammonia tablets. One tab makes a gallon of sanitizer. I've never thought to bring them into the woods, but it may work for some people.

Now that I think about it, I might throw one in the first aid kit, just in case I need sanitized water for wound washing.

EDIT: never mind, quaternary ammonium is useless for cleaning wounds as the compound is deactived by blood and other organic matter.

[TominMN]

God, I love a good pun! Brilliant!!!

+1 !!!!!!!!!!

[TominMN]

I will point out another issue I saw reading the last few pages. If someone is out on their own they are messing with mostly their own basic bugs. It pays to keep the count down. Other than that nothing new. A bit of soap will do it. When in groups or the hospital setting one is messing with many different biological microcosms that one may not want to be part of. That is when soap, water, sanitizer and maybe a blowtorch are appropriate. All depends on what one is messing with.

A whole lot of truth in that. Being alone (or perhaps, even as a couple) is a whole lot different than group dynamics re bugs.

[old creek]

Rubbing alcohol in a small contact solution bottle. BOOM!

I was wondering if I was alone. soap and water when ever available and plain ol' rubbing alcohol in a pinch. I do use alcohol gel on the trail, I don't even carry soap, don't wash dishes cause I cook in the bag and if I get grungy enough I usually have a couple of alcohol pads with me to wipe down with or if it is warm enough I will take a bird bath with some boiled water. one reason for alcohol gel is out of consideration for my trail mates and their peace of mind.

I didn't realize there was issues with some non alcohol hand sanitizers and like someone else posted I picked up a 3 pack from the dollar store back in march, I haven't used any of it and probably wont now so it looks like I just got some new fuel bottles as well.

creek

[chefkeith]

Might as well just pack a nice, high proof drinking alcohol. [emoji3]

[TominMN]

Might as well just pack a nice, high proof drinking alcohol. [emoji3]

Might have to do some serious testing of sanitizing from the inside out...

[GreatBigDave]

I use Everclear for fuel. I carry my stove and fuel in the pot and don't much want to eat poison. Would also sanitize the fingers - stings like crazy in a wound.

[OneClick]

I use Everclear for fuel.

Same here. I think it's crazy to burn such a toxic (HEET) substance 4" away from your food and just a couple feet away from the air you're inhaling. Being outside helps, but still not something I want to mess with. At $1 bottle, I really want it to work but I stopped using it. Using cheap Everclear knockoff now. $13 for 750ml lasts me a long time.

[WalksIn2Trees]

There's 11 pages of comments so, if any of this was mentioned already, I apologize.
Alcohol based hand sanitizer makes a good emergency fire starter.

Ever wear your camp-sandals wet, and can't get rid of the swamp-foot odor? I use alcohol based hand sanitizer. I tried all kinds of things. Soap and water worked for a while, but it kept coming back, one day, i saw that hand sanitizer on the desk at the office, and tried it.

It also works good as a handcleaner after working on my bicycle, especially the hand sanitizer wipes that most grocery stores have at the door, if I'm not home, but then, I don't use petroleum based lubes on my bike, so maybes not as good for auto lubes

[WalksIn2Trees]

Oh and, the gel has the added benefit of not evaporating so fast, allowing it to work longer as compared to liquid, for both sanitation or fire. But, if youre carrying liquid already for fuel, no sense in carrying gel too, I guess.

[steveflinn]

water. it's water that is the real answer. because the question is not weather to use hand-san or which to use. the question is How do we best practice personal hygiene?.

water is both the most efficient transport vehicle for harmful substances and the universal solvent for non-polar chemicals. it's water that carries away harmful bacteria and chemicals that can make us sick. liberal and even extravagant use of water is our best defense.

we scrub at the dirty things with a non-absorptive, non-damaging brush and then use water to rinse it all away.

now, we can't get every bit of everything dirty/harmful. hell, we can't even see some of it. and so it is possibly helpful to use poisons and other chemicals to kill off what we don't get with water and gentle scrubbing. we know that can be an iffy proposition and yet we generally like to use those.

but let's not lose sight of the fact that the best defense is water.

now, as the most efficient transport, water also enables us to spread infectious/harmful agents. it's easy to pollute the very environment in which we are doing our cleansing. so we have to use our common sense. for instance, in the backcountry we strive to rinse ourselves well away from water/drainage and well-travelled areas.

we should also be mindful that our blood is about 80% water. so if we DO get that infection, having more blood will result in a lower blood pressure. that often translates into having better judgement, passing food more easily, etc. (unless, of course, there's fever or other contraindication for hydration. etc)

point is, reliance on the backup methods of cleansing, such as commercial hand-san or alcohol, has consequences and is something to be mindful-of thoughtful-about.

</rant>

[docflash]

water will move germs around, but it doesn't kill them. but adds a little soap, and you've really got something. the use of soap for hand-washing is one the greatest breakthroughs in public health in human history.

as for sanitizers, I tell my patients to get the kind containing benzalkonium chloride. unlike alcohol, it keeps killing germs for hours one on your hands (but doesn't start fires).

[Scaryfeet]

I've never used hand sanitizer when doing stuff outdoors, even as a kid and have never got ill.

[Hobopelican]

Might as well just pack a nice, high proof drinking alcohol. [emoji3]
I am would wind up wiping my hands on my pants...I am NOT gonna waste good bourbon to wash my hands!:D

Wow, 11 pages on this. I personally can't get worked up over the topic. I wonder how people feel about the "5 second rule"?

[chefkeith]

I am would wind up wiping my hands on my pants...I am NOT gonna waste good bourbon to wash my hands!:D

Wow, 11 pages on this. I personally can't get worked up over the topic. I wonder how people feel about the "5 second rule"?

Of course not!

But I might splash some bourbon in a deep cut sustained on the trail. Just sayin.

[TXHangman]

My hands were dirty most of the time growing up from being outside and playing hard. How about all the stuff that entered our system when we were playing outside? or when we would eat lunch with dirty hands? I have read that we should drink 1/2 our body weight in ounces of water each day. Then I read I can drink too much water. Wait! What? Is it possible that we can get things so clean that even the smallest of bacteria now becomes a problem?

I still believe in the 5 second rule. LOL

[Spacelord]

Unless it bacon or chocolate... Then it becomes the "however many seconds it takes rule"

[TominMN]

I thought it was a "15 second rule" but I embrace the noted exceptions.

[Hobopelican]

Unless it bacon or chocolate... Then it becomes the "however many seconds it takes rule"
:thumbup:

mmmmm, bacon. yep, sometimes you just have to turn your back on hygiene. :lol:

[funnybone]

I think maybe a shot-then bacon-then another shot. Then decide if i care about hygiene.

[huntaholic123]

Water to clean the dirt off and hand sanitizer to get the germs for me. Little bit goes a long way

[briana26]

You can use milk moisturizer.

[wagex]

if im out camping or fishing 99% of the time i just rinse my hands off in the creek / lake im at to get the dirt off and then wipe my hand off on my pants or towel and get on with it, about the only time i use soap when im out is after handling shad (bait fish) because they smell soooo bad, a little lemon dawn and all is well.

[LBooth97]

Interesting read, thanks for the article my friend!