HH Deep Jungle

[Cannibal]

OK kids, Tom has been watching us. ;)

He had his new hammocks on display at Trail Days. Ya'll know me, I see something new and I pretty much have to play with one. So, I picked up the Explorer model of the Deep Jungle. He has two "jungle" designs, each come in either the Expedition model or Explorer model. The other hammock is called "Deep Winter". The only difference is the outer layer (we'll get to that in a second) is made of sil.

Please forgive some of these pics. The camera I was using is on its death bed. So, here it is:

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2320.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5917&c=member&orderby=dateline&direction=DESC&imageuser=435&cutoffdate=-1)

Looks pretty much like every other HH out there. The material is the Hyperlite fabric according to what TH told me.
Probably the most anticipated portion of the new design is the addition of a zipper along the full length of one side. Sound familiar? :D The netting can be thrown over on the other side. Hard to show, but in the 3rd pic you can see a small tab attached to the netting and another on the netting on the other side where it meets fabric. So, you can 'secure' the netting when it's flipped over. However, I don't think it's very effective. It seems like it's an inch or so out of position. The section stretching from the head end is under a bit of tension when the hammock is unweighted. When you get it, it just 'pops'. Oh well.

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2325.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5918&c=member&orderby=dateline&direction=DESC&imageuser=435&cutoffdate=-1)
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2335.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5922&c=member&orderby=dateline&direction=DESC&imageuser=435&cutoffdate=-1)
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2342.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5924&c=2)

Notice anything missing from this shot?

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2329.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5921&c=2)

No entry slit! Still kind of weird when I think about it. I mean that's kind of the HH signature. I like it, but it's weird. It does however allow for the other change to the HH line; the double layer:

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2326.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5919&c=2)
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2327.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5920&c=2)

What you see is pretty much it. It is a very narrow slit to insert the pad. I haven't put a tape on it, but my guess is about 18". It is a full double layer, not just a pad sleeve. It seems odd to me that this would be the only insertion point and that it is so small. One of those design kinks to work out I guess.

I haven't really spent any time in it yet, so I'll reserve judgment on it for later. First impressions; good first try! The way the netting is secured needs some work and the pad entry slit should be able to accommodate larger pads. Otherwise, it feels just like every other HH I've tried; which is a few. :D The tie-outs are in the same position. I wish he'd move the foot tie-out closer to the foot, but I guess there is a reason. I also wish he'd do something about the fact that my head presses against the netting when I'm in the 'sweet spot'. I don't like the thought of mosquito bites on my forehead. :scared: The lack of an entry slit is just plain weird, but it doesn't change the feel of the hammock. I do very much like the fabric; very soft against the skin!

I'll give it a night in the next week or so, but I've no reason to believe it will be any different from any other HH. It does not come with a tarp or stuff sack. Trail Days price was $128, but the 'retail' price is above $200 (around $236 I think). If this is your brand, this is a hammock you are going to like. I give it one :thumbup1:

[Ramblinrev]

Are the other hammocks still being made or do us slit folks have to fear losing our BEEP? It is just so nice for the mobility impaired like me. Oh well....

[Cannibal]

No, he hasn't discontinued anything. Just added to the existing line. No worries.

[cavediver2]

OK kids, Tom has been watching us. ;)

He had his new hammocks on display at Trail Days. Ya'll know me, I see something new and I pretty much have to play with one. So, I picked up the Explorer model of the Deep Jungle. He has two "jungle" designs, each come in either the Expedition model or Explorer model. The other hammock is called "Deep Winter". The only difference is the outer layer (we'll get to that in a second) is made of sil.

Please forgive some of these pics. The camera I was using is on its death bed. So, here it is:

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2320.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5917&c=member&orderby=dateline&direction=DESC&imageuser=435&cutoffdate=-1)

Looks pretty much like every other HH out there. The material is the Hyperlite fabric according to what TH told me.
Probably the most anticipated portion of the new design is the addition of a zipper along the full length of one side. Sound familiar? :D The netting can be thrown over on the other side. Hard to show, but in the 3rd pic you can see a small tab attached to the netting and another on the netting on the other side where it meets fabric. So, you can 'secure' the netting when it's flipped over. However, I don't think it's very effective. It seems like it's an inch or so out of position. The section stretching from the head end is under a bit of tension when the hammock is unweighted. When you get it, it just 'pops'. Oh well.

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2325.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5918&c=member&orderby=dateline&direction=DESC&imageuser=435&cutoffdate=-1)
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2335.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5922&c=member&orderby=dateline&direction=DESC&imageuser=435&cutoffdate=-1)
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2342.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5924&c=2)

Notice anything missing from this shot?

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2329.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5921&c=2)

No entry slit! Still kind of weird when I think about it. I mean that's kind of the HH signature. I like it, but it's weird. It does however allow for the other change to the HH line; the double layer:

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2326.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5919&c=2)
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/3/5/img_2327.jpg (http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=5920&c=2)

What you see is pretty much it. It is a very narrow slit to insert the pad. I haven't put a tape on it, but my guess is about 18". It is a full double layer, not just a pad sleeve. It seems odd to me that this would be the only insertion point and that it is so small. One of those design kinks to work out I guess.

I haven't really spent any time in it yet, so I'll reserve judgment on it for later. First impressions; good first try! The way the netting is secured needs some work and the pad entry slit should be able to accommodate larger pads. Otherwise, it feels just like every other HH I've tried; which is a few. :D The tie-outs are in the same position. I wish he'd move the foot tie-out closer to the foot, but I guess there is a reason. I also wish he'd do something about the fact that my head presses against the netting when I'm in the 'sweet spot'. I don't like the thought of mosquito bites on my forehead. :scared: The lack of an entry slit is just plain weird, but it doesn't change the feel of the hammock. I do very much like the fabric; very soft against the skin!

I'll give it a night in the next week or so, but I've no reason to believe it will be any different from any other HH. It does not come with a tarp or stuff sack. Trail Days price was $128, but the 'retail' price is above $200 (around $236 I think). If this is your brand, this is a hammock you are going to like. I give it one :thumbup1:

Okay so when do I get to see the other review huh ?

[Cannibal]

The write-up is done I've just got no salvageable pics; stupid camera! I'll get a narrative up tomorrow; file is on my work PC.

[Take-a-knee]

You had a chance to weigh it yet?

[BillyBob58]

So you bought one at Trail Days?

[Cannibal]

Yes, even wrote it down. Now ask me if I can find it.

Just a hair over 2lbs; 33.5 ounces if I remember correctly. I dropped a couple of ounces by cutting the suspension line, then added a few more putting rings and webbing on. I haven't weighted it since I changed out the suspension.

[Cannibal]

So you bought one at Trail Days?
Yep! It was an impulse. :D

[Take-a-knee]

I think I'll just have my HH Expedition zipper modded by 2Q, but you got a lot of hammock for the money there. That hyperlite fabric has a really nice feel. I slept in my daughter's hyperlite two nites last week, not bad.

[gunn parker]

Thanks for that, it does look very nice.
I wish I could buy that fabric it is just so nice and soft.

[Wentworth]

I like it! if this weren't so expensive, I think I'd get one.

[animalcontrol]

Yep! It was an impulse. :D
Hammocks (Cannibal)= shoes (Geniune Draft)
Pay attention!! :rolleyes:

[Knotty]

Glad to see HH is being responsive to market trends. The Trail Days price is great, but even the regular price is cheaper than buying one of their hammocks plus a Super Shelter.

[HitchHiking]

Looking forward to what people say once they have some time in one of these

[guySmiley]

How sturdy is the Hyperlite fabric?

[fin]

I noticed that the word "Patented" was significantly noticeable on the tag.:laugh: I'm surprised he doesn't work that into the fabric pattern somehow.:lol:

[Javaman]

18" opening for a pad? What pad fits? Or, folded lengthwise then unfolded?

Wonder if TH is thinking double use for the SS OCF pad. Hmmm.

I like the Grey color better than my Coyote Brown.

The one sided zipper for the bugnet flopped over the ridgeline seems unsophisticated compared to my ZQ mod.

Great report but so far, :confused::confused::confused:

[Wentworth]

I received a reply from HH regarding the pricing of the two models. The smaller one will be $260 and the large $290.
Out of my price range. Way out. If they were the same price as the regular HH, I might have bought one.

Guess I'll jump in the line for a BB and Yeti...

[Take-a-knee]

I received a reply from HH regarding the pricing of the two models. The smaller one will be $260 and the large $290.
Out of my price range. Way out. If they were the same price as the regular HH, I might have bought one.

Guess I'll jump in the line for a BB and Yeti...

Yes, methinks our man in Colorado may never catch his breath. He's going to have to do some sort of shutdown like the guy at ULA packs to ever get time to hike.

[Take-a-knee]

18" opening for a pad? What pad fits? Or, folded lengthwise then unfolded?

Wonder if TH is thinking double use for the SS OCF pad. Hmmm.

I like the Grey color better than my Coyote Brown.

The one sided zipper for the bugnet flopped over the ridgeline seems unsophisticated compared to my ZQ mod.

Great report but so far, :confused::confused::confused:

The hyperlite fabric is a tan ripstop

[fin]

I received a reply from HH regarding the pricing of the two models. The smaller one will be $260 and the large $290.
Out of my price range. Way out. If they were the same price as the regular HH, I might have bought one.

Guess I'll jump in the line for a BB and Yeti...

Ouch! For that price, you could almost get a Clark NA. At least you have zippers on both sides, you get a tarp with it, and the weathershield built in.

[SmokeHouse]

It will be interesting to see how his new version sells mainly due to price...

[Cannibal]

How sturdy is the Hyperlite fabric?
I'll let you know in a year. :) It is very comfortable fabric and doesn't seem to stretch too much for me.

I noticed that the word "Patented" was significantly noticeable on the tag.:laugh: I'm surprised he doesn't work that into the fabric pattern somehow.:lol:
:lol: What are ya gonna do? It also says made in BC (forget the town). Glad to see he is being straight with his labeling. I know there were some questions in the past. Looks like he's decided to end that argument.

Yes, methinks our man in Colorado may never catch his breath. He's going to have to do some sort of shutdown like the guy at ULA packs to ever get time to hike.
For good reason IMO. The Hennessy are quite functional hammocks and I think they have their own strengths, but they really don't compare to those 'Colorado hammocks'. Still, the more hammocks the more better!:shades:

$290 is falt out crazy for just the hammock. I sure hope he is throwing in a fly of some kind when it goes retail. Yeah, the Clarks are starting to look cheap. Glad I only paid what I did. I might be able to double my investment on Ebay in a few months.:sneaky::D

[Wentworth]

I thought putting this hammock out there was Hennessy's competition against Brandon. Guess not if it's double the price....

[guySmiley]

I'll let you know in a year. :) It is very comfortable fabric and doesn't seem to stretch too much for me.

Don't take this wrong, but you're probably the worst person on this forum to test a hammocks durability. It's hard for me to imagine you sleeping in the same hammock for a year, when you have 100 of them sitting around, begging to be used. :)

From your pictures that fabric looks like it's Dyneema gridstop, in which case it's probably very durable. I've never actually seen a Hyperlight, but I didn't think that's the stuff that they were made out of though.

Now, what I really don't understand is what makes this design a "deep jungle" design, or why a design that's exactly the same only with a second layer in silnylon's a "deep winter."

I'm not seeing why using the sil is better in the winter than it would be in a jungle. Did TH explain any of that kind of thing to you when you spoke?

[fin]

Don't take this wrong, but you're probably the worst person on this forum to test a hammocks durability. It's hard for me to imagine you sleeping in the same hammock for a year, when you have 100 of them sitting around, begging to be used. :)

Yeah, but it's Cannibal. The smell and grime alone is 10 times the average person, so you can count 10 days of testing to every one of a normal person. And he has that hammock gymnastics thing going for him, as well.;):rolleyes::laugh:


From your pictures that fabric looks like it's Dyneema gridstop, in which case it's probably very durable. I've never actually seen a Hyperlight, but I didn't think that's the stuff that they were made out of though.

Now, what I really don't understand is what makes this design a "deep jungle" design, or why a design that's exactly the same only with a second layer in silnylon's a "deep winter."

I'm not seeing why using the sil is better in the winter than it would be in a jungle. Did TH explain any of that kind of thing to you when you spoke?

I certainly wouldn't want a sil hammock in the summer - not breathable. You would wake up in a pool of condensation every morning, if you made it that long. For winter, it isn't as big of a deal, which is why I assume they made it with an outer layer of sil. Slide the pad between the hyperlite material and the sil outer layer, and you would have a pretty effective vapor barrier built in.

[animalcontrol]

I Slide the pad between the hyperlite material and the sil outer layer, and you would have a pretty effective vapor barrier built in.
There are about 50 ways to Sunday to accomplish that...none of them include a seperate hammock that you can only use for 3-5 months a year, IMO.
Of course, average internet hammock shoppers don't know that...that is were WE come in! :D

[animalcontrol]

From your pictures that fabric looks like it's Dyneema gridstop,
I might be wrong, but the only Dyneema material I've seen comes in at 4 oz/yd. (are there other weights?)
A hammock made out of that would be bombproof...and IMO, too heavy to carry.

[headchange4u]

I still think 2Q and ZQ's zipper mod looks better :p

[guySmiley]

I might be wrong, but the only Dyneema material I've seen comes in at 4 oz/yd. (are there other weights?)

I've no idea. I'm just going off the pics that Cannibal posted. It seemed unlikely to me as well that he'd be using the Dyneema ripstop, but it would account for the price tag, wouldn't it?

[Cannibal]

Yeah, but it's Cannibal. The smell and grime alone is 10 times the average person, so you can count 10 days of testing to every one of a normal person. And he has that hammock gymnastics thing going for him, as well.;):rolleyes::laugh:
I would protest, but that would be hard argument for me to win. :D

[guySmiley]

I would protest, but that would be hard argument for me to win. :D

Sorry to side track the thead, but it occurs to me that there should be a thru-hiker, "Who smells the worst" contest at Trail Days.

[Cannibal]

I AM NOT JUDGING THAT ONE! :scared:

[fin]

There are about 50 ways to Sunday to accomplish that...none of them include a seperate hammock that you can only use for 3-5 months a year, IMO.
Of course, average internet hammock shoppers don't know that...that is were WE come in! :D

Yep, but I was just answering the question as to why use sil on the Winter model and not the summer model.

[fin]

Sorry to side track the thead, but it occurs to me that there should be a thru-hiker, "Who smells the worst" contest at Trail Days.

This thread has been side tracked for quite a few posts.


I AM NOT JUDGING THAT ONE! :scared:

I don't know, you might be the perfect person - you should know what a real good "funk" smells like.:laugh:;) Nothing like an "expert" to be the judge.

Back to the new Hennessy design - I'm really wondering why anyone would pay that much more for basically an explorer or expedition with a zipper. Buy a cheap used one, and have the zipper mod done, and you still come out ahead by about a bill.

[Cannibal]

I don't know, you might be the perfect person - you should know what a real good "funk" smells like.:laugh:;) Nothing like an "expert" to be the judge.
A man likes his own brand, but the brand of others....eck!


Back to the new Hennessy design - I'm really wondering why anyone would pay that much more for basically an explorer or expedition with a zipper. Buy a cheap used one, and have the zipper mod done, and you still come out ahead by about a bill.
Probably the same reason a few people bought "New Coke" back in the day. I think it's a pretty big deal when Hennessy responds to market demand. As far as I know, this is the first time it's been seen since the beginning. Good to see competition having the desired effect. I wouldn't have paid more than I did, but I'm glad I've got one for the collection. :shades:

[fin]

I wouldn't have paid more than I did, but I'm glad I've got one for the collection. :shades:

I'm with you there - your price was reasonable. $290?:scared: NOT!

[animalcontrol]

Yep, but I was just answering the question as to why use sil on the Winter model and not the summer model.
oh, I know you know it and you did a great job of explaining...
just wanted to point out there are other options (that don't include a $$$ hammock that can only be used in the winter) to our fellow forum members.

You have probably forgotten more about VBs than I know...

[fin]

just wanted to point out there are other options (that don't include a $$$ hammock that can only be used in the winter) to our fellow forum members.

Well, you could use it in the summer, but you'd have to like sleeping in puddles.:D

Makes me think of the afternoon I spent in my ATTH a couple weeks ago. Temp was in the 70's, and the sun was shining on me. By the time I got out of the hammock, I had left a nice wet sweat ring underneath me from laying on that unbreathable PU coated nylon in the sun. But it sure was nice and cozy warm while I was napping.:lol:

[Cannibal]

Don't take this wrong, but you're probably the worst person on this forum to test a hammocks durability. It's hard for me to imagine you sleeping in the same hammock for a year, when you have 100 of them sitting around, begging to be used. :)
Oh how I wish. Some day when I've got my hammock hostel maybe. At best, counting home sleepers and DIY hammocks, I'm probably close to 30 or 40 hammocks. I believe the total tally of 'camping' hammocks is getting close to 20; 17 if the math in my head is accurate.


From your pictures that fabric looks like it's Dyneema gridstop, in which case it's probably very durable. I've never actually seen a Hyperlight, but I didn't think that's the stuff that they were made out of though.
It is not Dnyeema gridstop. That's what my ULA packs are made of and this stuff is nothing like that. Soooooo soft.


Now, what I really don't understand is what makes this design a "deep jungle" design, or why a design that's exactly the same only with a second layer in silnylon's a "deep winter."
The double layer is what classifies it as a 'jungle' model I guess. I see the term thrown around mostly at double layer hammocks. The bugs can't bite through it, hence the jungle name. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :)


I'm not seeing why using the sil is better in the winter than it would be in a jungle. Did TH explain any of that kind of thing to you when you spoke?
I actually got Tom on camera talking about it before my battery died. I keep forgetting to pull the video and put it out there. I've got some good angles on his 'winter tarp' on the video too. I'll try to get to it this weekend.

[Javaman]

I thought putting this hammock out there was Hennessy's competition against Brandon. Guess not if it's double the price....

Warning . . .Rant follows:

Innovation is what initially inspired me to buy a HH. Warbonnet continued that trend, gaining much traction. Plus, he's an active member here, giving him credibility and traction in the market. HH has remained quiet and still, until now . . . .

This seems a weak response by HH, and does not leverage what makes HH particularly unique. In fact, they left out the bottom entry altogether and offered up a lame imitation of 2Q/ZQ's mod. Smarter would have been to partner with ZQ for bug net mods and Mr. Prez for underquilts. Leverage the community, for god's sake. Otherwise you just end up looking desperate.

An excellent example of what I am talking about is happening over at Warbonnet, or even more so at Bark River Knife and Tool where the owner has partnered with an aftermarket modder to take care of all knife re-handling and refurbishing. This is happening under "factory authority" and "full warranty." Plus, the owner is VERY involved in the BRKT subforum at knifeforums.com and is very communicative about product development. The end result is a win/win for both businesses involved and a HUGE upside for BRKT owners.

So, while I don't yet have my Warbonnet on and remain happy with my HH setup, kudos to Brandon for being involved in the community and continuing to innovate his way forward. A shout out also to 2Q and ZQ for moving HH usability WAY beyond stock factory offerings and for pushing HH users to new levels of involvement with their hammocks.

Note also GoingGear's recent responses to a post here about inexpensive MSR type stakes offered on his site (www.goinggear.com). Monitors the communities involved with his products and then engages the community in a meaningful way to move his products and the value it brings to the community forward.

If this was Business School the ideas put forth in this rant would be a CLASSIC Case Study.

Tom may be watching, but he ain't here and it shows.

Javaman

[animalcontrol]

Warning . . .Rant follows:

Innovation is what initially inspired me to buy a HH. Warbonnet continued that trend, gaining much traction. Plus, he's an active member here, giving him credibility and traction in the market. HH has remained quiet and still, until now . . . .

This seems a weak response by HH, and does not leverage what makes HH particularly unique. In fact, they left out the bottom entry altogether and offered up a lame initation of 2Q/ZQ's mod. Smarter would have been to partner with ZQ for bug net mods and Mr. Prez for underquilts. Leverage the community, for god's sake. Otherwise you just end up looking desperate.

An excellent example of what I am talking about is happening over at Warbonnet, or even more so at Bark River Knife and Tool where the owner has partnered with an aftermarket modder to take care of all knife re-handling and refurbishing. This is happening under "factory authority" and "full warranty." Plus, the owner is VERY involved in the BRKT subforum at knifeforums.com and is very communicative about product development. The end result is an win/win for both businesses involved and a HUGE upside for BRKT owners.

So, while I don't yet have my Warbonnet on and remain happy with my HH setup, kudos to Brandon for being involved in the community and continuing to innovate his way forward. A shout out also to 2Q and ZQ for moving HH usability WAY beyond stock factory offerings and for pushing HH users to new levels of involvement with their hammocks.

Note also GoingGear's recent responses to a post here about inexpensive MSR type stakes offered on his site (www.goinggear.com). Monitors the communities involved with his products and then engages the community in a meaningful way to move his products and the value it brings to the community forward.

If this was Business School the ideas put forth in this rant would be a CLASSIC Case Study.

Tom may be watching, but he ain't here and it shows.

Javaman
Outstanding 'rant"...couldn't agree more

[guySmiley]

All of my favorite gear companies these days are cottage industry types (Mchale Packs, OES, Speer, Minibulldesigns, etc...) but one thing that I've noticed is that all of them, without exception, run into problems with fulfillment of orders.

Look at Tinny at Minibulldesigns. When he goes out hiking, his business comes to a standstill. For him, that's fine, but if he were to partner with someone that was counting on him being there, he'd be in the situation where he'd have to work more hours than he's capable of, or expand.

Hennessy Hammocks is never going to go back to being a cottage business. It just doesn't work that way. It seems like your expectations are a little unfair. The scale of his business is so completely different from that of 2QZQ that I highly doubt that they'd be able to keep up without expanding dramatically.

Now if he were smart he'd hire Brandon as a designer rather than fight it out with him over patents. That's a different story though.

[animalcontrol]

Hennessy Hammocks is never going to go back to being a cottage business. It just doesn't work that way. It seems like your expectations are a little unfair. The scale of his business is so completely different from that of 2QZQ that I highly doubt that they'd be able to keep up without expanding dramatically.
Every business owner chooses how to run their business...if Tom H chooses to be the Walmart of hammock makers, that is his choice...and there is nothing wrong about it.
We here are the fringe of campers...we have the luxury of our friends and co-conspirators being on the cutting edge of camping evolution. We as a community invigorate each other by sharing our ideas..successes and failures.
But make no mistake about it, (I'm not even pretending to speak for anyone but myself) I will support ANY business who chooses to support the marketplace by embracing the ideas and innovation of it's customers. That is called customer service. And on the flip side, I will ignore the business owner who tries to stifle the marketplace for his best interest...that is my right as a consumer.
Businesses will move in and out of "cottage" status as they grow and contract...it is the special few who can bridge the gap and support both innovation and the masses.

[Javaman]

All of my favorite gear companies these days are cottage industry types (Mchale Packs, OES, Speer, Minibulldesigns, etc...) but one thing that I've noticed is that all of them, without exception, run into problems with fulfillment of orders.

Look at Tinny at Minibulldesigns. When he goes out hiking, his business comes to a standstill. For him, that's fine, but if he were to partner with someone that was counting on him being there, he'd be in the situation where he'd have to work more hours than he's capable of, or expand.

Hennessy Hammocks is never going to go back to being a cottage business. It just doesn't work that way. It seems like your expectations are a little unfair. The scale of his business is so completely different from that of 2QZQ that I highly doubt that they'd be able to keep up without expanding dramatically.

Now if he were smart he'd hire Brandon as a designer rather than fight it out with him over patents. That's a different story though.

Point noted about 2Q/ZQ. My thoughts were more to the leverage of opportunities, ideas or concepts the market offers that can be turned into innovations that lead to better products and greater traction with customer's.

The idea of HH hiring Brian as a designer, or better yet just buying Brian's company, is exactly to my point. Imagine having the top hammock brand extending into a hammock's most valuable accessory, tarps! Or imagine HH seeing what 2Q/ZQ are doing and partnering on the process, bringing their mods into mainstream HH products for "custom" ordering through a select HH website or set of dealers? ZQ would never have to sew another day in her life since she would be overseeing HH's global quality control (she's really that good).

None of this gets to the value these business owners may find in owning their own company. And it is often the cottage businesses and modders that push innovation forward. My only point is that truly great companies find a way to either innovate themselves, partner with it or buy it while making the customer feel like they just can't live without it. HH prides itself on being an innovator and industry leader - IMHO these recent HH products miss that mark and leave existing customers wanting for more.

[Javaman]

Outstanding 'rant"...couldn't agree more

Thanks. Just looking for more great HH voodoo!

[elcolombianito]

Ok, i can't contain my self, I really tried, but... IM DEEPLY DISAPPOINTED, and im sure many other HH users are too... or plain pissed, can't really tell how to describe my feelings since seeing these pics.

I liked HH (the company, and their products)... I had been waiting anxiously to see, and hopefully purchase, their next new crazy product (hey, the bottom entry slit rocks, and will always rock crazy for me), and since it had been announced they were going to show their new top loading hammock, I really though it would be THEIR VERSION of a top loading hammock. By their version of a top loader I mean I was expecting something... ugh, something just different, different in the sense of the bottom entry slit, or the pockets for the tieout lines on the corner of their Poly hex tarp (yeah, i love those little details)... I just can't see what's their new addition to the toploader type hammocks... the whipping?

I obviously have not had a first hand look of the Deep HH hammocks, but I think those pics and Cannibal's report are enough to tell its nothing you wouldn't get from any other top loader and for less money.... or am i wrong? Ok, maybe the material would make it "unique", but still... Im just sad. I really was expecting something different...

[Coldspring]

W

This seems a weak response by HH, and does not leverage what makes HH particularly unique. In fact, they left out the bottom entry altogether and offered up a lame imitation of 2Q/ZQ's mod. Smarter would have been to partner with ZQ for bug net mods and Mr. Prez for underquilts. Leverage the community, for god's sake. Otherwise you just end up looking desperate.



Who's imitating who? I don't think a zipper on the side of a hammock is a really new innovation. And what is a top loading hammock? I thought all hammocks were top loading before Hennessy made bottom loading hammocks.

So is Hennessy supposed to sew their hammocks up in BC or China, ship them to ZQ for a zipper mod, then have them shipped back for redistribution to many commercial retailers? I'm not taking up for Hennessy, but they are in the business of making money as efficiently and largely as possible, not redistributing their wealth to a couple of garage shop folks. Also, if you haven't noticed, most of the cottage guys don't have a middleman, how much do you think their products would cost if two or three parties were trying to profit?

How many hammocks do you think Hennessy sells a year anyway? I've always wondered. When most people learn about hammocking, they pretty much think Hennessy. They don't say "I'm getting a hammock", they say "I'm getting a Hennessy Hammock".

[2Questions]

Ya know, I'm just glad Hennessy finally got the message! He has a business to keep profitable, to put food on his table. I have a full time job doing other things and then we have this little side biz called "Zipper Mods" to tinker with. At some point in time when all the existing Hennessy's are either worn out and not worth the expense of the zipper mod, or are replaced with Warbonnet's or something else, my efforts will cease.

Hennessy however, unless he can live forever on the income of his past accomplishments, needs to continually evaluate his offereings. If he wants to just sit back and let everyone else do his R&D work, maybe he's smarter than I thought. It's kind of like watching where people walk across the park first before you put in the sidewalks. His business decisions are simple....when to act and how much can he make on the deal.

ZQ and I are glad to have had an impact on Hennessy....What's next? Who knows? With all the creative minds and talents on the forum, and the typical progression/evolution of ideas, there will always be opportunities for folks like us to make a contribution.

[Javaman]

Who's imitating who? I don't think a zipper on the side of a hammock is a really new innovation. And what is a top loading hammock? I thought all hammocks were top loading before Hennessy made bottom loading hammocks.

So is Hennessy supposed to sew their hammocks up in BC or China, ship them to ZQ for a zipper mod, then have them shipped back for redistribution to many commercial retailers? I'm not taking up for Hennessy, but they are in the business of making money as efficiently and largely as possible, not redistributing their wealth to a couple of garage shop folks. Also, if you haven't noticed, most of the cottage guys don't have a middleman, how much do you think their products would cost if two or three parties were trying to profit?

How many hammocks do you think Hennessy sells a year anyway? I've always wondered. When most people learn about hammocking, they pretty much think Hennessy. They don't say "I'm getting a hammock", they say "I'm getting a Hennessy Hammock".

You correctly point out that HH essentially defines the hammock industry. Like Band-Aid or Kleenex in their industries, the HH brand is often synonymous with backpacking hammocks. This puts added pressure on the company to continually innovate and grow or risk being displaced by other more innovative companies. Warbonnet is on the warpath, so it seems, with great innovation and traction with enthusiasts. As go the early adopting enthusiasts, so often goes the broader market. Just witness what's going on with Aarn bodypacks elsewhere in this forum. The only thing missing is Aarn's personal engagement in the thread. I bet money if he waded in and personally engaged our community about his products the next to happen would be the launch of Aarn in the U.S..

I don't for a second think that 2Q and ZQ could really keep up with HH production. I simply illustrate several possible scenarios in which creative minds could leverage innovation to the betterment of the HH brand instead of the company falling flat with its latest release. What's so special about the new HH model that I just "have to have it?" Why would I buy the new double-bottom product when I could just buy a Warbonnet? Why would I want the new HH zippered net when I could get mine modded by 2Q/ZQ? And where is Tom Hennessey in our little online community, engaging with his customers to mine the ideas of his devoted disciples? Crickets . . . .

Every good company has its share of misses as it pushes forward. Great companies learn from the mistakes and come back to market with better innovations, smarter ideas and greater products. Let's see what HH is made of . . . .

[guySmiley]

You correctly point out that HH essentially defines the hammock industry. Like Band-Aid or Kleenex in their industries, the HH brand is often synonymous with backpacking hammocks. This puts added pressure on the company to continually innovate and grow or risk being displaced by other more innovative companies. Warbonnet is on the warpath, so it seems, with great innovation and traction with enthusiasts. As go the early adopting enthusiasts, so often goes the broader market. Just witness what's going on with Aarn bodypacks elsewhere in this forum. The only thing missing is Aarn's personal engagement in the thread. I bet money if he waded in and personally engaged our community about his products the next to happen would be the launch of Aarn in the U.S..

I don't for a second think that 2Q and ZQ could really keep up with HH production. I simply illustrate several possible scenarios in which creative minds could leverage innovation to the betterment of the HH brand instead of the company falling flat with its latest release. What's so special about the new HH model that I just "have to have it?" Why would I buy the new double-bottom product when I could just buy a Warbonnet? Why would I want the new HH zippered net when I could get mine modded by 2Q/ZQ? And where is Tom Hennessey in our little online community, engaging with his customers to mine the ideas of his devoted disciples? Crickets . . . .

Every good company has its share of misses as it pushes forward. Great companies learn from the mistakes and come back to market with better innovations, smarter ideas and greater products. Let's see what HH is made of . . . .

You're right on many things, I think but some of your descriptions don't really jive with Cannibal's review. "Falling flat," and "Miss" isn't anywhere near what he said. From what I've seen from pics online, 2QZQ's zipper mod really does look better to me than HH's new offering, but to be fair I'd rather have that than just the bottom entry that I have now (I really need to get that mod done by ZQ...) on my Expedition.

HH's can be found in nearly every gear store in America. I suspect most people buy them not ever knowing that there is even other options. Warbonnet, no matter how how superior Brandon's product is (I've never used one, I'm just making an argument here, not a judgment...) will never compete with HH unless he's able to produce enough of them to satisfy distribution channels that he doesn't have. The closest competitor of HH isn't Warbonnet, it's probably ENO, who are hardly breaking new ground in terms of hammock innovation.

Speaking of innovation/new stuff, how come nobody has purchased/reviewed the Eureka! Chrysalis? Cannibal what's the hold up? You know you need another hammock!

[elcolombianito]

Ugh... I suck big time... a friend wants one of those new ones and an ULBA, and im cashing in for a Deep (which ever comes cheapest, guess Jungle) for my self... stupid addiction to HH. Hopefully will buy them as soon as they offer them on the website.

Im still sad though.. can't believe that's really the "new" hennessy hammock... it better come with something hidden that those photos don't show.

[Coldspring]

Ugh... I suck big time... a friend wants one of those new ones and an ULBA, and im cashing in for a Deep (which ever comes cheapest, guess Jungle) for my self... stupid addiction to HH. Hopefully will buy them as soon as they offer them on the website.

Im still sad though.. can't believe that's really the "new" hennessy hammock... it better come with something hidden that those photos don't show.

You really need to conquer that addiction to HH. The best remedy is a Warbonnet.

[Cannibal]

No Hennessy bashing in this thread, please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but no need to get fired-up. For the record, I don't necessarily disagree, but there are plenty of threads for that already. Let's be happy with a new toy!

I bought this hammock and posted the pics so that we could all see what Tom is doing up in BC. I am thrilled that he is straying a little from his rigid designs and think we ought to give him a little credit for trying something he has resisted for many years. Who knows what could result?

Remember, this is his first try at changing his design fundamentally. My favorite (currently) hammock wasn't created overnight. The ElDorado premiered at Trail Days in 2007, the Bird came 18 months or so later. Notice my signature hasn't changed, probably won't in the foreseeable future. ;)

For a Hennessy, this is a very comfortable hammock. The material is just wonderful and the fact that I can reach out of the hammock is a huge improvement IMO. Yes, it still has some design flaws. No, it isn't made in the US of A. However, I own more than a couple of hammocks that the exact same thing could be said about. They are still my children and I love them all, even the black sheep.

[Javaman]

No Hennessy bashing in this thread, please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but no need to get fired-up. For the record, I don't necessarily disagree, but there are plenty of threads for that already. Let's be happy with a new toy!

I bought this hammock and posted the pics so that we could all see what Tom is doing up in BC. I am thrilled that he is straying a little from his rigid designs and think we ought to give him a little credit for trying something he has resisted for many years. Who knows what could result?

Remember, this is his first try at changing his design fundamentally. My favorite (currently) hammock wasn't created overnight. The ElDorado premiered at Trail Days in 2007, the Bird came 18 months or so later. Notice my signature hasn't changed, probably won't in the foreseeable future. ;)

For a Hennessy, this is a very comfortable hammock. The material is just wonderful and the fact that I can reach out of the hammock is a huge improvement IMO. Yes, it still has some design flaws. No, it isn't made in the US of A. However, I own more than a couple of hammocks that the exact same thing could be said about. They are still my children and I love them all, even the black sheep.

Well said. While I still find the business aspects of the discussion very interesting, I am deeply grateful for the original HH design. Without it I probably would not have engaged in this Forum and learned so much over the course of the past couple of years. I would not have had a chance to expose my sons to hammocking, and would not have watched 2Q/ZQ launch their HH modding business. I would not have had the opportunity to buy a KAQ from Take-A-Knee, bury myself in countless threads about suspension systems (Garda hitch rocks!) and make my own tarp tensioners. I love my HH system and wish HH nothing but the best.

[elcolombianito]

Cannibal,
How does it feel laying in different diagonal directions? Have you played around in it, not just laying the normal asym way?

[Cannibal]

Cannibal,
How does it feel laying in different diagonal directions? Have you played around in it, not just laying the normal asym way?
I haven't had the time to play yet; maybe this weekend. Memorial weekend here was just plain WET! I had planned to bag Pikes Peak, but scrubbed it due to weather. Heck! They even closed Seven Falls (seven waterfalls all in a row near Colorado Springs) due to "inclement weather". WTF?! I found a ranger and asked why a waterfall would be closed due to rain. He said, the waterfall is open, but the road to it is washed out. Seemed valid enough to me. :scared:

The total of about an hour that I have in it so far tells me that it is identical in every way (except the entry slit and zipper) to the original Explorer model. So, if you're comfortable in one of those there should be no difference in this model. The aysm tie-outs are in the exact same locations.

[CR0M]

To be fair to Tom, and I know I've given him my fair share of bashing in my meagre half dozen posts already (pot, kettle etc.), he has said that he no longer gets the chance to do any design work anymore as production/sales take up all his time now. I can understand this fully, it's the natural evolution of success.

But with the revelation of this new offering, I do wonder if he has taken on the services of an independent designer... one who isn't as innovative as Tom himself..? or maybe the Jungle is just the result of a spare half an hour in a hotel room with a sketch pad. Either way, without the trademark innovation of HH's younger days, he is in danger of falling behind the herd.

I'd be more than happy to be your lead designer Tom, will work for a lifetime supply of Doritos and a house in New Zealand :D

[Cannibal]

"Zeus" is the fella I met that seems to be his lead designer; don't know for sure. He says he has been trying to talk Tom into zippers for several years, but did not have much luck until recently.

Man cannot live on Doritos alone; you need to include beer in your negotiations. ;)

[jeffjenn]

I actually had an email conversation with Tom & Anne about adding zippers to their hammocks in December of 2007. The answer I got (very bluntly) from him was, "we are not interested in doing/adding anything to our hammocks that doesn't save our customers weight or money". Seems this has done a complete 180 over the last 2 years.

[BillyBob58]

I actually had an email conversation with Tom & Anne about adding zippers to their hammocks in December of 2007. The answer I got (very bluntly) from him was, "we are not interested in doing/adding anything to our hammocks that doesn't save our customers weight or money". Seems this has done a complete 180 over the last 2 years.

I had similar responses a couple of years back. I understand his desire to keep the weight and cost down ( my HHULEXP, while being a good sized net hammock, it is still one of my lightest hammocks, even including the stock tarp).

But I was always a bit surprised that he did not at least offer these items ( zippers, dbl layers) as options for his customers who were willing to take on the extra cost, weight and parts that could break. I suppose it might also have been a desire to use the KISS principle on his manufacturing end also.

[billvann]

I understand his desire to keep the weight and cost down ...

Offering zippers on existing models would double his inventory costs if he kept a zipper-less version in the product line. Plus since he sells through retailers he needs to amke sure they're inetrested in the modified line or risk losing that distribution channel. So there are other reasons an owner must consider before changing products.

[Cannibal]

Offering zippers on existing models would double his inventory costs if he kept a zipper-less version in the product line. Plus since he sells through retailers he needs to amke sure they're inetrested in the modified line or risk losing that distribution channel. So there are other reasons an owner must consider before changing products.
I never really thought about it like that, but you are right. Hennessy has so many different models to start with, that it probably is a monumental PITA for him to expand the offerings and maintain his relationships with the retailers.

[billvann]

... expand the offerings and maintain his relationships with the retailers.


Of course he could consider setting up TQ&ZQ as a value added distributor with inventory. Folks opting for a zipper mod could purchase through Hennessy and he's pass the order along to be dropped shipped after the mods. TQ&ZQ could then sell hammocks as well as the mods service.

[JohnH]

Of course he could consider setting up TQ&ZQ as a value added distributor with inventory. Folks opting for a zipper mod could purchase through Hennessy and he's pass the order along to be dropped shipped after the mods. TQ&ZQ could then sell hammocks as well as the mods service.

Although I think you have a valid point I think the poster above was right in that TQ & ZQ wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand. I never would have known about the zipper mod if not for the chance find of these forums. Had I known it existed it would have been the first option added to my hammock.

[GrizzlyAdams]

I overlooked this thread the first few times around (getting lax in my HF reading...) just picked it up now on the bump.

Climb into the way-back machine if you will to comments on the 18" wide slit for a pad.

For entirely different reasons I had a narrow entrance (20") between layers in my dual-mode bridge hammock. I've worked in (and out!) a 26" wide Thermarest just by inflating it, folding it over lengthwise, sliding it in, and then unfolding it. The reverse process is a little more complicated, you have to fold the pad as it is pulled through the slot.

The harder thing though is repositioning the pad while you're in the hammock. I expect that's the same with any double-layer hammock that closes up the slit though.

Thanks Cannibal for the post!

Grizz

[Coldspring]

Of course he could consider setting up TQ&ZQ as a value added distributor with inventory. Folks opting for a zipper mod could purchase through Hennessy and he's pass the order along to be dropped shipped after the mods. TQ&ZQ could then sell hammocks as well as the mods service.

It's a zipper. I got all kinds of little trinkets that cost $2 with zippers. If you're paying a worker to sew up a hammock, how much more difficult is it to just sew a $2 zipper in?

[Slackdaddy]

Hmm, so are they in production yet ?
Wonder if he still has "trail daze" pricing ?

Slack