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This is a yes or no question for those that participate in the PIF thread. We are considering adding tracking to the rules so that when you mail a PIF you also need to include tracking with it. This is only going to add an extra 0.90 cents to the package but it will also ensure that the package gets mailed.
Do you agree with this, do you want tracking added to the PIF rules?
Some people when sending a really light item item (e.g. cuben pouch), might send it as a First Class Mail letter/flat, which cost 0.46 for 1 ounce, 0.66 for 2 ounces, 0.86 for 3 ounces, and 1.06 for 3.5 ounces, so they would have to pay not only the 0.90 for tracking, but also the 2.07 minimum charge for a parcel that they have no need for.
Rick, could you add a third poll option: "Don't Care" or "Either is Okay"?
Also, when I ship, always USPS, my tracking/notification is free. What's the 90 cents you speak of?
Rain Man
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I've only done a couple PIF transactions, but I think tracking is unnecessary. Often the return PIF is already posted (and maybe claimed) before the item even gets to the post office. Maybe folks are having problems I'm unaware of, but IMHO, it is unnecessary.
Ought to be mandatory for sales over, say, $50, however.
I would never send a package with out a tracking number. I have been burned before. Great way to lose money.
mailing 1st class doesn't come with a tracking number. It cost .90Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man
Priority is often cheaper, in my experience, and does come with tracking. Maybe that's been his experience as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewker
Curious, has it become a problem that this should be added?
Although it is sad,sometimes you have to take steps to keep people honest..For one use priority and traking comes with it,but for two if it is the same person over and over he/she should be banned from the marketplace section, or the whole site if he or she is that dishonest a person, then we dont want them here anyway!,..3 strikes and your out, go rip off people on some other site.. but thats just my opinion:scared:
Have faith in people.
I voted yes.. but:
I think priority is the only way to ship. In most cases, it is cheaper than standard mail, (except IMUSA cups) it comes with tracking, and insurance built in.
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3. The receiver/claimer of the PIF agrees to "Pay it Forward" by posting something free within 24 hours (must be worth the cost of shipping).
Whoopies and guy lines ship first class in a taped up piece of cardboard for 3 stamps, no trip to the post office needed. Requiring priority shipping, tracking, or a trip to the post office would hinder my ability to participate. I understand that isn't an issue for some folks, but I question the necessity for what is essentially a gift.
I think on sales it would be nice but PIF seems a little bit of overkill.
I had a PIF once that went this way:
1. (A week after the 24 hour mailing period) Sorry, I was out of town that day and didn't send it. I'll send it tomorrow
2. (A week after #2) Sorry, I keep forgetting to mail it. I'll mail it tomorrow.
3. (A week after #2). I mailed that a week ago.
I never got it.
I did claim a pif once which never arrived. When I asked about it after giving ample time it was claimed to have gotten lost in the mail; which I have never experienced in previous pifs or in general. (to which my return pif is now a no claim pif)
Perhaps if one adds tracking info it can be thought of as the positive feedback deal with Ebay.
Or...perhaps a separate thread where we can give the positive feedback...
Idk the capabilities of the forum board provider, but it would be really nice to have an individual feedback system tied to the pif'ers profile similar to ebays rating system. (a link or something next to their avatar)
Hard to explain but I am sure you all understand what I am saying. This way the tracking information won't be mandatory and we can look up ones pif feedback and see their rating. This way if one has a negative rating and some extraneous circumstance occurred they could choose to make it right, or have it on their concious that they took advantage of our honesty based system. Positive feedback indicates a go ahead.
Some of these items in the PIF thread are trifling in value. Adding shipping cost onto it seems highly unnecessary.
1. As the sender, I should be able to ship it any darned way I want. If the PIF receiver wants something else, it's on his dime.
If the receiver wants tracking or insurance or UPS/Fed Ex instead of USPS, or whatever blows his skirt up, then he should send the PIF sender a shipping label via e-mail. Sender can print it out and tape/paste it on the package. It's easy, folks - try it!
2. PIF Wall of Shame - The spreadsheet already tracks fulfilled and unfulfilled PIFs right in the spreadsheet. There's your name with a blank in the Shipped column for the last two weeks. Are you that busy? Ship your PIFs, people! It's only your reputation that suffers.
3. Make a rule you cannot participate in another PIF until you fulfill your obligations (i.e., item is shipped and received, and spreadsheet is updated).
4. If sender says he shipped it, but it got lost in the mail and he has no tracking number, then after a period of two weeks, PIF is declared null - no harm, no foul.
5. If sender has tracking number, but receiver never gets it, PIF is declared null after two weeks. Move on with life - it was lost.
6. Another shaming idea. Add a protected column to calculate PIF participant's average time between claimed and shipped, add a column for claimed/received and show a percentage for that, as well as a percentage of NULL PIFs.
It would be like the E-Bay rating system - you'd have a good statistical basis for knowing if you claim a PIF from member X, it might be a dicey proposition.
7. Caveat emptor.
By the way, I voted yes.
I'm with RainMan on this one.
SilvrSurfr has some good points, although,
the new math in the spreadsheet would need a geek mod :scared:
Silvr has some good ideas about feedback, but I don't' think the spreadsheet needs to be made more complicated. I'm a member of another vBulletin forum that has feedback ratings, that could be incorporated for sales and PIF. Sometimes custom PIF work, or personal work schedules, interfere with timely shipping, though I can always make it to a post office on a saturday morning.
I like a PIF wall of shame. It fits the spiritual nature of the PIF concept. Let's not make it more difficult for those that participate.
I think you hit the nail on the head - the PIF concept is an ideal - it's what we hope to be. That's something you can't regulate.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkbyrd
No, why add restrictions or extra steps to those that follow the rules.
Thousands of PIF transactions and a handful of horror stories. Root out the bad apples without slamming the group.
All the mods are geeks - didn't you know that?:boggle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dos
All mods are geeks. WHOA?!? There is no topic that I would fall under the title of geekish. Just saying. :D
I know I have been bad about putting the ship date, even though I shipped the item. I think maybe we should be better at posting the ship date on PIF's. I also agree if a person doesn't send the PIF, then MOD's should be contacted and if that person has three unresolved complaints, they should be banned from the PIF thread.
Why let them continue to participate, if they are being dishonest, and other good PIF'ers will suffer.
Just my $.02.
At my post office they ask me to buy tracking on first class mail. When I refuse it, the tracking number is still on my receipt. I do not know if it is just a glitch at my PO, or it is a normal thing. I am looking at 3 receipts right now that confirms this. Can somebody confirm that it is or is not a glitch at my post office? I wrote an email to USPS but I am not holding my breath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewker
And also, after thinking about it, I voted no. I know there will be no more than a few that take advantage of the PIF thread. I am not really in favor of rules that make it harder for everyone, because of the actions of a few. To be honest, I have only had a couple problems on the PIF thread. The AWESOME experiences VASTLY outweigh the bad experiences. I view the PIF thread as a nice place that makes you feel good to participate. Get a tracking number if it makes you feel better. I do 80% of the time, but there are times that I don't. Then again, I really do not know how many complaints get made to the mods, so that would be a good factor to know.
I think adding shame as part of the way this community relates to one an other is a pretty bad idea. I think we should avoid it like the plague.
Items of trifling value, IMHO, is not reflective of the PIF ethic. Offering up something of little value after you have claimed something that you found value in just doesn't seem in keeping with the idea and intent of PIF.
The idea, IMHO, should be to make such folk who would claim something of value and then offer up a trifle or make a claim with no intent to actually mail the return offer to think twice before they do so.
I've started limiting my participation in PIF as a result of seeing too many folk offering up the equivalent of a box of half used pencils after claiming a decent cookset. I'm not finding things that merit the cost that it takes to mail an IMUSA cup, or the time and effort it takes to make a set of pawn bags.
The idea should be to encourage people to offer things of value or use to their fellow members rather than as a way to get something for next to nothing. Paying an extra $0.90 is a small price to pay for that, and it insures that folks who really don't intend to go past the point of claiming something they want and walking off will choose not to participate.
My thoughts exactly. I have too limited my participation in PIF for just the same reason. While I am not much of a DIY person I appreciate the skills in others and tend to PIF to get them. I usually offer up gift certificates to various place that others find of value.Quote:
Originally Posted by sargevining
Paying a .90 tracking fee to ensure shipment is a good thing if it means items get shipped in a timely manner.
I use "Proof of Mailing", when I want to prove I mailed something. However, that added paid service only proves I mailed something to a address, it is NOT proof that the thing mailed was received.
I had a bad experience with a seller, I did not receive the merchandise, I filed a complaint with my Credit Card Carrier, since the seller refused to give me a time or date that he posted my merchandise. He finally produced a "Proof of Delivery" receipt. However, I never received the package, I did not sign or have any knowledge of what happened to my merchandise, the Credit Card Carrier sided with me.
Now I send things insured and if of much value, I request a signature. Now nothing goes missing.
There ya go...correct assessment. However, let's leave the shame at home. Ideals are ideal. Shame is a product I ain't buyin'. It only works if the person has a conscience to begin with. If they cheat you over a $2 alky stove they likely will cheat ya on a larger matter. You don't need them or the thing. Better off without either. :shades:Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr
Voted no - should be my choice.
:shades:
I'm not too keen on the idea of being told I HAVE to add tracking, but it doesn't bother me enough to stop participating in PIF's.
Let me clarify the shame thing... I don't mean a "PIF slacker thread," but the spreadsheet as-is, or perhaps a "PIF recieved" field. That way everyone can see who has been not holding their end of the deal.
What is the difference between the Pay It Forward subforum and the For Trade subforum?
It's sad when we need rules to protect folks from getting jipped out of "acts of kindness" owed to them in a PIF "transaction".
I don't participate in the PIF subforum because of this and and choose to freely give to others on my own terms with no return expectations.
And I'm never disappointed. :)
+1 on this. I think it is time to shut down the PIF and let everyone use the For Trade forum since this is what it has turned into.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSmurf
I am with PapaSmurf. 2sticks (daughter) has given away all the gear she outgrew and we always got a big thank you instead of getting asked for a tracking #.
If you feel you need a tracking # don't use the PIF thread, put it in the "For Trade" and require a tracking # if you want.
I don't plan to add a tracking rule to the PIF rules. I just wanted to hear everyone's opinion on it.
I am a firm believer of shutting down a problem before it gets started, nipping it in the bud if you will, i also know that MOST members here follow the rules and the overall community is great, but we all know that there is allways one in the crowd that ruins things for everyone, so like i said before that a simple rule change could solve the whole problem better than requiring traking we could have the 3 strike rule, if a member has 3 UNRESOLVED transactions on the pif thread as well as on any other marketplace thred then they are OUT!! Of course the mods can use their descretion on what may be cosidered unresolved and make exceptions if they feel it is needed but i think this rule may be a good deterent to those who think it is ok to not honer the rules.. People behave differently when they are held accountable for thier actions,
Then again, this is just my opinion
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Originally Posted by PapaSmurf
Yah, a reluctant +2.Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
I think when half the community is contemplating the use of shame, or requiring proof of mailing in order to get people to do the right thing, we have reached a point of too much control and not enough good intentions.
you can do what you want with the PIF rules. I will still get a tracking number and PM it to the person when it is shipped.
I was kidding about the public shaming, but it is a matter of one's reputation. The spreadsheet as-is does give you an idea of the reliability of people in shipping their PIFs in a timely manner (assuming the information is correct). Then again, it wouldn't be hard to put in fictitious dates so you look like you're reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkbyrd
As someone else said, there have been thousands of PIF transactions and there are a few bad apples in every bunch. Rather than three strikes you're out, I still favor one strike, you're out. No more participation in the PIF thread until confirmation of receipt of shipped item.
This is why I just buy, sell or trade
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Originally Posted by PapaSmurf
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Originally Posted by hangnout
We're all talking hypotheticals here.. There have only been a small number of issues in the pif thread, out of nearly 1,000 pages.. and honestly it's one of the only reasons I'm on the forums as much as I am. I love the pif section.Quote:
Originally Posted by sargevining
I initially suggested the for trade thread with the intention of it being a "super pif".. I wanted a place where I could offer up something higher end, a hundred dollar knife, or a full hammock for instance, and not have something like an IMUSA listed in return. In turn, if something came up that I wanted to claim, then I could. It became a trade only thread, and has since morphed into a place where we can trade not only commercial items, but DIY/custom services.
It's seemed to work out well, to my knowledge. I've made a few trades on there, and they've all seemed to go well.
But it lacks the randomness of the pif section. I've picked up a few items on the pif that I never would have set out looking for. But now, I can't live without. :lol:
Like I said before, tracking is a buck.. Should we require it? No.. But as the person sending it out, it seems wise to at least track it. The news is full of usps horror stories, ups thowing things out and all sorts of stuff. And thats not even counting the people that steal crap off other peoples porches.
I use tracking not because I'm worried about my reputation on the forums.. But because I know the reputation of the shipping companies. And I await each pif like a kid waiting for christmas.. I do not want to crush anyones inner child by having the post office screw it up.
I might be naive, but I think our postal carriers do an outstanding job. I worked for the USPS and I also worked for UPS - they have some of the most astounding logistical operations in the world. I am impressed by their efficiency and processes.
FedEx came in and introduced lower wages (due to non-union labor) and has increased the efficiency of competitors. Overall, I'd say we have it pretty good with shipping in America.
Wow, surprised at the negative responses here. I just recently found the PIF forum and think it's great, especially compared to some I've seen on other forums that I wouldn't want to be a part of. I'm only on my second transaction but have been very impressed with the folks on the forum, the generosity, and how well what's is basically an "honor system" is operating.
The PIF is giving me a chance to try out some DIY items (like an alcohol stove) that I wouldn't have otherwise. It also has me looking through my drawers and boxes for things that others might appreciate.
I think it says a lot about the members and moderators here that the vast majority of the transactions are running smoothly.
I say give it a try before you pass judgement on it. It's actually a lot of fun.
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Originally Posted by PapaSmurf
+1 for Ewker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewker
Plus, what Papa Smurf said
Ewker for PRESIDENT!!!
Anyone else remember when the PIF was about giving something to someone who had a use for it while simultaneously cleaning up your pile, instead of people wanting to know where's my stuff at?
I've never once complained or posted about PIFs that I haven't received. Of course perhaps I am odd in that I've always viewed PIFs as gifts. If I get it great, if not then I'm no worse off without it.
Just my two cents.
Yeah, this whole thing seems blown out of proportion. I am thankful for the PIF section and all who do their part. I believe in Karma, so let the takers take. Let the givers give. let trackers track. I am gonna keep on keepin on.
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Originally Posted by halfastronomical
Me too! Well said. The decision by the mods has been made for no tracking rules. I'm all for locking this thread so the powers that be don't end up ditching the whole PIF deal because of the way things have gone. Let the givers give...
"Carry out a random act of kindness, with no expectation of reward, safe in the knowledge that one day someone might do the same for you." ~ Princess Diana
i can dig that!Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSmurf
I am never a fan of making things difficult on the group when the troublemakers are a very small minority. I assume that is the case in this instance. I can't imagine anyone here with a reputation would risk that to cheat someone in a thread like this. Ban the offender(s) if they pull some junk like that. Of course things get lost occasionally, but it will become obvious very quick;y if someone is taking advantage. The USPS is does a really good job, usually.
My 2 cents, of course. I am rare in the PIF section.