Hey guys - here's an article I wrote in May '06 but never got around to posting it. So here it is...what do you think?
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ad.php?p=81136
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Hey guys - here's an article I wrote in May '06 but never got around to posting it. So here it is...what do you think?
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ad.php?p=81136
Very nice.
To ME, it was preaching to the convinced because I already think of my hammock & tarp set up as a "4 season shelter", but now I can point my friends to this to show I'm not the only one. Thanks!
Yeah...like I said, getting to low temps is just a matter of having enough gear. But four seasons in Shenandoah isn't the same as four seasons in the High Sierras or on Mt Washington. Having back-up plans and good training are a must if you're really in rough conditions!
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pathetic Poor Performance (family version). I think our hi-tech world has really helped outdoor sports (ie: gear, clothing, etc.) but at the same time we see people depend too heavily on hi-tech toys without basic knowledge of the fundamentals. JMHO :)
Yep, there is four season ( cold ) and then there is FOUR season - very high winds, blowing snow coming up and under a tarp. Or maybe snapping a tarp guy line. Or a snow loaded tree branch breaking and puncturing your tarp, or worse.
I have mountaineered in 4 season tents and snow caves. I have yet to become equally at ease with a tarp under conditions that would really call for the above. We all know of folks who have had to lean their bodies against tent poles on small 4 season tents to keep them from collapsing. How would we handle that in a tarp? I don't for a minute think I could, so going to ground, maybe with some additional shelter options ( bivy, or prepared for snow cave/trench, ability to keep insulation bone dry or synthetic) would seem to be a requirement if a quick bail out is not an option.
I had a friend who got the foot of his down bag wet in a 4 season tent once. Rained all night, not high and dry in a hammock, some water got in the foot of the tunnel tent some how. My WPB down bag stayed dry, but his got wet. Then while hiking all the next day in the rain, most of his clothes got wet, in a freak occurrence. As he bent down to stake the tent, his suspenders snapped, allowing his Patagonia rain pants to pop open at the rear forming a funnel. All just as a lightning strike hit close by, the skys went from drizzle to down pour and a small water fall suddenly appeared, pouring off of the rock he was pitching the tent by, and funneling right down his pants, all in under a minute. That night after the front passed, it fell to 15*F, and he had quite the miserable night. Which was fortunately our last night of tat trip. It is amazing the stuff that can happen if you are out there long enough, and this was only Sept, not even winter!
In a hammock he would have had a better chance of keeping his bag dry I feel, since he would have been off the ground. But with blowing snow, this advantage might not be there. Not to mention that when dealing with high winds, it is much easier to block the wind in a low to the ground 4 season tent.
So, mountain winter storms, far from a trailhead, definitely require some additional planning if in a hammock under a tarp. A lot more so than just real cold temps do.
Holy crap - that's some bad karma! What did this guy do, kick puppies?! Cut in front of veterans at the grocery store?Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBob58
I think in nearly every case of rain, a hammock will be more comfortable and dry. When the winds are strong enough to collapse tents they may be strong enough to take down tarps as well, so that's probably a tie.
Tarptents are an excellent step in the right direction. I think a winter tarp would solve most of the dry snow blowing under the tarp issue...but they also present a large face to the wind. So again - they're probably good enough for most four season trips on the east coast. And to be fair, I probably could have found a more protected site at Winnemucca so I wouldn't have had to go to ground...but we were testing gear! (There were ~4 of us from BGT that weekend...have to make some sacrifices in the name of science!)
I wonder about those geodesic beach setups that were posted recently. Cut down the weight and stake them down...might be worth splitting the weight between 3 people if you could fit 3 hammocks in there.
hey, how bout a sock under a winter tarp? that would solve snow blowing in from underneath. then all you gotta worry about is the integrity of your pull tabs. a good large tarp should have heavy duty pull tabs for exactly this reason, there could be strong winds in any season really, but the consequenses of pull tab failure are just more severe in winter conditions obviously. setting up a tarp in cold heavy wind is still a problem, but setting up a 4 season tent in similar conditions isn't exactly easy either, as if you are truly in severe windy freezing conditions you probably want to guy out the tent with several lines as well. something like the fig 9 mini's might be worth using in conditions like these even if you don't otherwise, just to get the job done and get out of the elements quicker and require less dexterity as well, something you might not have for long if you have to take your gloves off to tie a knot in 1.75mm line.
those structural geodesic domes did look pretty cool, could you set them up on uneven ground though?
After the Winnemucca trip is when I made the first hammock sock, just for that reason. I think it would certainly help in many conditions. If you can back yourself up with a snow cave or trench, a longer winter trip probably do-able with a good tarp and some sort of bivy or sock. I had plans for a wpb sock but never perfected my design enough to spend the money on material.
Good question on the uneven ground...I don't know. But if there's snowpack you could always dig it level.
In my hammock, Old configuration & Better new config - I have withstood: 50+ MPH wind gusts on several trips & at home, freezing rain [pic somewhere here at HF], 6" - 8" snow already on the ground where I was surrounded by a snowman army [pic somewhere here at HF], temps down to at least 13 deg, etc. I have to say, the hammock sock has made a HUGE difference in the severity of conditions I can comfortably hang in, & what I can safely hang in (not so comfortable, but I lived).
So, yea, I suppose I have only done "four season", not "FOUR SEASON". And yes, I do have a plan for (heaven forbid) going to ground, or at least getting closer to it.
Someday I would love to at least try FOUR SEASON, , , , ,
Yep - heaven forbid we'll have to go to ground. We're almost there, especially if you can find a sheltered site, which is probably most cases. I guess it'll never be true mountaineering since you can't hang above timberline (rocks and boulders excluded)...but it's close!
I'd like to see a hammock on Everest.
JJ, et al,
The JRB Hammock Hut is a true tent.... It has four sides, which functions as doors or can be completely rolled up. It can be pitched on slopes. The hammock hut as top vents in each door panel and beaks to protect from blow in. There is 40 sq ft of floor space. Room for a hammock, a ground dweller and a child or large dog also on the ground. No need for hammock socks or weather proof bottoms... Weight is well under 2 pounds at 1 pd 12 oz.
Alternatively the JRB 11x10 Cat tarp forms full ridgeline to ground protection but has key hole door openings and only 25 sq ft of floor... It is a great winter tarp providing several pitches and this storm protective tent like pitch.
I agree that four season hammocking is indeed viable... And yes it requires winter capable, shelter and insulation...While this is heavier than summer or three season gear it is often still lighter than suitable ground set ups for the same conditions....With standard off the shelf shelters and insulation zero degree hanging is easily doable with 12-15 pound base loads.
Pan
i have 10 mini 9's hooked to my 10-11 tarp. once the ridgelines are up i can finish from under tarp. gutter spikes can also go through 9's.Quote:
Originally Posted by warbonnetguy
every time a storm starts i run in back yard and set up tarp. down to under 2 min.
We do have that benefit of being able to seek wind shelter on a leeward slope, or behind some huge bolder. But per my recent experience at a 10,014 camp in the Wind Rivers, that is not as big a benefit as it might seem, and it seems huge. Here is where the problem in real life arose- the wind kept changing direction on us, quite frequently. But, we were in an unsheltered area close to lakeside, not on a slope. Maybe that made a difference?
So far so good with our JRB and SW tarps in high winds. They handled it just fine, though we had varying success blocking the wind, again probably due to changing wind direction. We would be broadside the wind one second, the next it would be coming right in the ends! None the less, I still worry about the "sail" effect of these large tarps that provide so much rain coverage and living space, at least in the really high winds that would challenge a low profile 4 season tent that has several crisscrossing poles. It is just a matter of the amount of sil-nylon material that is exposed to the wind unsupported. All of this is much smaller to start with in a 1 or 2 man tent, plus it is broken down into small sections between the poles. Just something that stays on my mind.
Speaking of socks, I think again of the HH SS. Even with the stock tarp, blowing snow is going to be greatly hindered by the sil-nylon undercover. Snow that makes it over the top is going to at least be slowed down by the net( see Cannibals pics, in the WB UQ test, camped in the snow with only a net over him!). The Over cover would provide even more top protection it seems, though I have never tried it. Now getting it to be as warm on the bottom as some other approaches might be difficult, and require lots of tricks. Or at least a pad addition. But I feel more protected under neath with this set up, particularly from something like blowing snow, than I do with most other set ups. Although, a good sock( or some type of bivy) with a good tarp would accomplish about the same thing. It's just that mthe SS is ready to go from the factory. And with the small factory diamond tarp attached to the suspension, combined with the under cover, the coverage is as close to bombproof as you can get. Of course, then you have to deal with a floppy tarp, which is a major PIA, but it can be done.
That blowing snow can be kind of like a whirl wind, coming at you from all directions. If the snow is deep enough, some kind of trench between the trees might be an idea to consider.
OTOH, if the snow is that deep and the wind very high, I might just have to chuck it all in favor of a snow cave! I don't care if it is minus 20 with 150 mph winds, it is calm and about 32*F in a snowcave. Only an avalanche is still a threat to life once you are in one of those. And like Jeff said, roots and rocks are no longer a concern, and you can make yourself a level bench to sleep on, even on a steep slope.
Once, while camped in 4 season tents on the side of Mt.Baker, WA in June, I watched three German guys climb from the 5000 foot level in the trees to the 7000 foot level where we were camped on very deep snow, near the Coleman Glacier. It was about 3 0r 4 PM, and we were going to get up at 2AM to summit. These guys came up, dug a trench a few feet deep and just wide enough for the 3 or 4 of them. They place a tarp over the trench, and buried the edges in snow. Then they headed up with their summit packs, made the final 3700 feet to the summit, and got back down before we went to bed. They had supper and a few beers they had brought, crawled in that trench and passed out.
That trench looked pretty secure to me, though if you got several feet of snow someone might have to go out now and then and shovel some snow load of of the flat tarp. Some kind of trench idea for a hammock might be worth considering, if you were determined to stay in the hammock instead of digging a snow cave.
Jack - as we were discussing earlier in this thread, maybe we need a better definition of "four season." I agree that zero degree hanging is doable with the systems out there now - winter tarps, hammock tents like your Hammock Hut, and thicker underquilts. I wrote this article right after the Winnemucca trip, so that's the kind of conditions I was thinking about when I said "four season." (It was also before JRB and Speer winter tarps, Hammock Hut, etc.)
I don't think any of those systems would have made it thru that storm...but then it also collapsed some of the mountaineering tents so that's not a knock against the hammock systems; it's just a recognition that it's not the right gear for those conditions. Gotta pick the right tools. What you've introduced is a HUGE step in the right direction...Turk has proven their use in cold conditions, but I want a hammock shelter that can survive almost any winter storm below treeline. There's a solution like that out ther somewhere; we just haven't figured it out yet. THAT's the true four season shelter I'm looking for!
Jeff, not to trivialize this problem, but... are there any tent designs that you think are up to surviving almost any winter storm below tree-line? If you do, but they are too low or too short is there a way to scale the size of these to be high enough and long enough to contain a hammock? Then is it not mostly a matter of working in a way to get the suspension lines out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
I'm imaging one of these tube designs that have hooped geometry, for example (for illustrative purposes) MSR Expedition.
Grizz
Most mountaineering tents have either geodesic or hooped designs...I guess that would be a good place to start. The geodesic ones tend to weigh more but seem like they'd be easier to adapt to supporting a hammock. The hooped ones, like Hilleberg and Stephensen's, are lighter but may need to be pitched between trees and have the hammock's supports come out.
In the end, a snow trench may be the best answer. We've discussed several times about digging a trench between the trees and hanging the hammock inside. That takes more effort than just throwing down a tent, though. I'm sure there are several ways to make this happen with less effort than a snow trench!
But of course, there isn't a tool that's right for every job. Maybe a winter tarp or hammock hut is good enough for most conditions, even in winter mountains, but for the exposed sites you could dig a snow trench.
Just thinking out loud here... :jj:
Sometimes the wind actually changes directions, like when fronts collide, merge, pass each other, etc. I've looked up in daylight hours and seen clouds at different altitudes moving pretty fast but going in opposite directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBob58
And I have a few experiences where the wind changed on me also. I remember one time when I was using a 8x10 tarp in cold weather and my hiking buddy was using my Stevenson 2R tent and wanted to camp on the peak of Big Frog Mountain in Tennessee when we where finishing up the Benton MacKaye Trail (it use to end near there). It was going into the twenties that night and it was pretty breezy on the top where he would be tenting. But that tent was fine for that and I found a pretty good hammock spot a hundred yards away on the leeward side. I was fine until the wind changed, then I wasn't. I had setup pointing down slope instead of traverse and when it first changed I wasn't in too bad of shape because it was blowing broadside at me. After a couple hours of that it shifted again and came at me where the tarp was acting like a threatening balloon. Miraculously all the stakes held but the wind blew right though the foot of my hammock and footbox of my sleeping bag. Luckily I was using closed cell foam pads and had a small piece I could rearrange in my foot box to keep my feet from freezing. I was okay, not okay to get any real sleep, but okay warmth wise to stay put. I'm guessing the overhead winds where gusting to 50 or 60 mph and I was probably getting 25 to 30 mph gusts... it was certainly troubling. At daybreak it was still blowing and I had to think through every move I was going to make before I got up and rehearse it in my mind. I made it and had to wake up my hiking partner who slept like a baby through it all in that nice winter tent like the college kid he was.:D We got on the trail pretty fast because I had to get going to stay warm. A few minutes later at one particular spot on the trail the wind was accelerating enough in gusts to knock us sideways and almost off our feet because of the funneling action of the terrain..
It is a three dimensional environment up there and also on the ground. Especially with hills, mountains, bowls, canyons, etc. You can be on the protected side and get swirling air or updrafts but they are typically at greatly reduced speeds.
I have a pop-up sun roof on my truck. When I first got it I was amazed that I could get on the freeway and with the sun roof popped up it would suck leaves from the truck bed into the cab through the pop-up sun roof. Now, a lot of air was going out through the sun roof, but apparently some was coming back into it also because it was bringing leaves in with it.
One thing I try to do when I am trying to stay out of the wind in my hammock is to hang a little higher off the ground, more up inside the tarp. I like the edges of the tarp to be off the ground. Three reasons for that-- ventilation to cut down on condensation, I'm not always on level ground or ground without obstacles, and I need a few inches for my shock cords to help keep my tarp tensioned. If I am up inside a large enough tarp, air blowing underneath me doesn't make a direct hit on me.
That is a trade off but is the way I like to do it. When I first started using hammock tarptents years ago, the initial idea was to get it all the way to the ground and close the ends off with just high side openings where the hammock suspension lines went through. That works when it is windy but caused big time condensation build up for me when the wind stops. It also complicated site selection and setup as well as limited flexibility because it took more guylines, precision, etc to set it up. I don't think I ever intentionally set up in the wind in cold weather so I decided what worked for me was easier site selection, easier setup, and more flexibility to deal with changing conditions.
And I thought camping in a tree 40ft off the ground was crazy. I can't imagine going hammock camping in the middle of winter where the temps are below zero and the wind blows so hard it could fill your hammock full of snow. I may have to "grow a set" and camp in my hammock this winter (maybe on the ground.)
I had an idea while I was thinking (I should say day dreaming) about this afterwards. What if you took your hammock material and sewn the two sides together forming a circle. Add either elastic or draw strings to both ends. When you hang your hammock, slip the cover over the hammock and draw tight one end. When you get in your hammock pull the cover over you and draw tight the other end. I used to do this for a rainfly when I first started making hammocks. It definately will keep the wind and snow out (depending on the material you use).
I'd put my money on one of these:Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
http://www.titaniumgoat.com/vertex6_5.html
Unlike a mountaineering tent, there isn't really any part of it to break or fail, except the stake loops ripping off. Being able to dry your gear with the stove is priceless, and compared to hauling white gas, not heavy at all. You can use a sled in the winter anyway.
this tent would be set up with back (opposite door) to the wind. with my hammock i put the side to the storm (left side:)). so if somebody was to build a hammock "tent" the foot or head end should point into the storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
just a thought.
GrizzlyAdams, i think your onto something.
In cold weather snow is your friend. Water is much easier to manage in the solid state. Snow can be a wind barrier. But most important snow is insulation. I have snow camped with a guy that carries only a 20 degree bag.
At high altitude tents get a substantial solar temperature gain. On sunny days they turn into mini saunas.
Ice is evil and offers very little insulation. Snow is your friend.
If your winters include deep snow then use what nature gives you and make a snow shelter.
My avatar was taken in January at 11,700 feet.
i put 2 panel pulls on each side of the superfly to provide support in heavy wind, and i've had it up in some pretty heavy wind and it worked really well. (i don't have a wind measuring device yet, so i couldn't say what wind speeds were).
poles for a hooped design or other would have to be pretty long, i don't know if poles that long would provide that much support without some sort of criscrossing and intersecting like you see on a geodesic mountaineering tent or at least guylines attached mid-pole. regardless, that's alot of tentpoles to carry when you are talking about a 11x10 shelter. you might be better off just having the right amount of panel pulls to provide the support. they're obviously much lighter, and even with poles you would still need to guy them out in the center to provide support if you are talking about a hooped design. even the geodesic designs have mid pole guylines on the poles for support in the heaviest wind. i think putting adequate panel pulls on a large tarp could provide adequate strength. what is adequate for true mountain wind is the question. i'm sending turk a superfly, and from reading some of his previous trip reports, i hope will put it to the test in some serious wind. hopefully the 2 panel pulls per side reinforced with an 8" or so circle patch will prove to be enough. it seems like even with the panel pulls guyed out in heavy wind, most of the force is still on the main pull tabs, but i definately need to do more heavy wind testing to get a better understanding of exactly what's going on.
KK,Quote:
Originally Posted by kayak karl
JRB HAmmock Hut does just that, assuming that you pick two trees where the foot of the hammock, or the head for that matter, points into the wind.
Pan
That was kind of the idea/shape for what I was going for here , but I didn't have carbon fiber poles at the time so the shape wasn't right. I have the poles now - I'll have to post a new pic.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams
I've thought quite a bit about this kind of thing since reading Jeff's report about his trip in the Sierras last year.
Some of the major thoughts that I have are...
First of course, if there's any way possible, find as much protection from strong winds as possible. It may only be something that will provide a break from the hardest, direct hits of wind, but even that could be a great help.
But I realize that for various reasons, that may not always be possible. You may find yourself a long ways from any helpful wind breaks & needing to set up camp to get out of the weather.
In that case, I see two general directions that a person could take with hammock gear.
One would be a fully enclosed tent with enough ventilation to help with condensation issues.
I've read several places that mountaineers tend to find tube type tents more reliable in hard winds than dome type tents. That causes me to think about the possibility of a hammock tent that would use three hoop poles if a person thought those kind of conditions would be a possibility.
The other thought is more along the lines of a tarp with closeable ends (like the Speer Winter Tarp or the JRB Winter tarp) set low & in contact with the ground, using extreme guying methods, along with a "Travel Pod" that would be beatable. The sides would need to be taught & steep to shed spin drift. The steep, taught sides might could be accomplished by storing gear in the bottom of the travel pod to weight it. I experimented with something like that last winter, but didn't get it like I wanted.
I plan to try again this winter.
Maybe a combination of the hoop style hammock tent with the travel pod... like a double wall tent.
This is my tarp over hammock in a pretty windy situation I found myself in last year.
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery...0026_thumb.jpg
The winds may have been 30 or 40 mph??? but nothing like Jeff had on his trip. I still had a corner tear part way on that tarp that night.
That night I was touching the ground because of the cheap, wal-mart webbing I was using & the greater than usual distance of the trees I used, but it turned out not to be a bad option.
I had the ccf pad & my empty pack between my under quilt & the ground. That & the really low tarp kept the worst of the wind off me, even though the tarp was open on both ends.
Just to be a little picky here, but isn't the real question, "Can you use a hammock in extreme winter conditions?" Nobody has made any mention about the other three seasons.
Are we talking about one set of gear that has the inherent flexibility to be used all year around? A single standard pack load. Or are we talking about a gear locker at home from which you can pick and choose what's needed for a particular trip? And what does that investment look like? How many hammocks? How many quilts? How many Tarps? etc.
Just thought I'd stir the pot a little.
Regards,
I am a weather weenie, I admit. However, I'm wondering why a tarp appropriately staked and protected from wind as much as possible via site selection, and a hammock sock over the hammock/underquilt wouldn't provide the needed protection? The hammock sock I'm thinking of would have a bottom made of dwr/cuben/sil (pick one) and the top would have something breathable (1.1 ripstop or even netting). Any snow that gets under the tarp would be caught by the sock. The wind would be blocked. That just leaves limbs falling (a problem with site selection) or the guylines pulling out or the tarp ripping, which would be an issue with tents, too.
I know from talking to Nest that he feels that the underquilt and sock are why he was able to carry his hammock all the way on his thru hike this year. He said he and Cannibal were the only ones who seemed to be able to deal with the cold on the trail because of their underquilts. He can step in and add to this when he gets back to the forum.
the cold can be dealt with. we were specifically discussing what is needed "to be confident" in hanging through a sever winter storm. (extremely high winds and ground blizzard conditions). it is pretty much accepted that one can hang confidently in the "other 3 seasons" with proper gear.
That's the point!
With the "proper gear" you can hang in a blizzard.
Turk's experience last year was a fair demonstration of that - although he had his issues too. The point is the proper gear for the winter blizzard is not the proper gear for summer. And the proper gear for summer is not the proper gear for the shoulder seasons. And what about monsoons or any other special weather.
And what about when the weather catches you by surprise? Knowing you're going out in a blizzard and being prepared for it versus going out for a late fall or early winter hang and getting caught by surprise are two extremely different situations.
So what does a complete 4 Season gear locker look like? And is it man portable or does it require sleds like Turk used? Are we car camping in January at Mt Rogers or hiking into the wilderness?
Can you do it? Sure you can with the "proper gear"! Do you routinely carry the "proper gear"?
Regards,
Yes, Smee - that's a better way to phrase the question. Winter tents are sold as "four season" tents even though they're more appropriate for winter only b/c it's "too much protection" for summer. So yeah - extreme winter conditions is what I was talking about, and I wouldn't carry this gear for summer conditions.
Are we there already? I think we may be close, depending on how much effort you're willing to put into site selection. (Taken to an extreme, walking down off the mountain could be considered better "site selection.") Is some sort of hammock sock or bivy necessary? I know it helps me stay warm and feel more confident, and it would have kept me in my hammock at Winnemucca, but these aren't available commercially yet. The Hammock Hut and the winter tarps are huge leaps forward for most winter conditions. They wouldn't have survived my site at Winnemucca but I think I could have relocated to a less exposed site on that mountain without much effort where these would have been good enough.
And obviously Turk's experiences show the progress being made towards winter hammocking.
I think we proved long ago that hammocking is feasible in all seasons for the conditions most hikers will encounter. But I also think we can still take it further!
yeah, that's the thing, most of the time you won't be in a ground blizzard, but if you decide to go backpacking in the sierras or the rockies from november to march there is definately a chance of that happening so you better be prepared or pick a warmer season for your trip.
the tarp needs to have full closure on the ends. i think the sock would take care of anything drifting in from under the edges or through the suspension opening. insulation is less of an issue as the low tempreture part has been dealt with sucessfully by quite a few. that leaves only the wind. so all that remains is what does a tarp that can confidently handle 50+ mph wind gusts look like?
jeff, i'm guessing you didn't have a wind guage at winnemucca so you wouldn't know how hard it was blowing. i've heard 70mph is when it gets very difficult to walk or stand.
It was well over 70. Nearby Mt Diablo had measured speeds of 100 mph, and Tahoe recorded 65-143 mph. We were higher in elevation than Tahoe, and on an exposed ridgeline.
yikes, that's blowin'. i don't know if i would have been confident in a log cabin with that much wind.
Yes, BUT: Your tarp guy line or D-ring or something broke loose on your MacCat (strong as they come, IMO) due to the fierce winds, right? I don't think I would have been able to stay in a hammock with just a sock and no tarp, under those conditions. ( Edit- for one thing, especially if you had a down UQ or PeaPod, that wind would flatten your windward side quilt and all loft would be gone! This can be at least a small problem even with a large tarp- especially with a "storm" pitch- I have experienced it once or twice, though I wasn't using down).Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
Still seems to me that, with a tarp, location is still a good bit more important than with a 4 season tunnel tent, which often survive such storms above timberline and completely exposed. Though it can get real dicey even with these, and if the occupants get out, the tent might be blown away or collapse if someone is not in there to brace the poles. High winds remain the final challenge for a tarp( and the larger the tarp, the larger the sail), unless you are able to take advantage of the hammocks ability to use sheltered sites that might otherwise be unusable.
But that is what God designed snow caves for, anyway! ;)
Yep - agree on all counts. With a sock I wouldn't have bailed when I did. I may have taken down the tarp and stayed in the sock after the guyline broke...can't say w/o seeing how the gear reacted at that time.
But regardless, you're right - the bigger the tarp the bigger the sail, so site selection is key.
There was a commercially available Bridge style hammock linked too recently on the forums that is completely enclosed and so essentially has a sock. The one linked was pretty heavy at about 5 lbs if I remember correctly, but I'm sure that with judicious use of materials that could be made somewhat lighter. The top was stretched pretty tight and looked like it would shed winds, rain and snow. So at least one hammock with a sock is commercially available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
Not really a sock...the outside of the hammock is what was pictured, so an underquilt wouldn't be protected and you wouldn't have a windblock between the wind and the hammock. Still, I wonder how that system would fare if you used a pad inside the hammock. Might be worth the extra weight if it were truly weather resistant like that.
Here is the forecast for Oct 9 in the Wind Rivers, where I was hammocking 3 1/2 weeks ago. It's not exactly winter yet, but imagine a winter storm up there, in a hammock/tarp! :scared:
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...=140&map.y=142
Tonight: Snow likely. Cloudy, with a low around 18. Breezy, with a west southwest wind 19 to 22 mph decreasing to between 9 and 12 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. Total nighttime snow accumulation of around an inch possible.
Friday: Snow. High near 26. West southwest wind between 5 and 9 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of 4 to 8 inches possible.
Friday Night: Snow. Low around 13. Wind chill values as low as -1. East wind between 5 and 15 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of 5 to 9 inches possible.
Saturday: Snow. High near 19. Wind chill values as low as -4. Windy, with a east northeast wind 17 to 20 mph increasing to between 27 and 30 mph. Winds could gust as high as 39 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%.
Saturday Night: Snow. Low around 6. Blustery, with a east northeast wind between 18 and 26 mph, with gusts as high as 34 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%.
Sunday: Snow, mainly before noon. High near 24. Chance of precipitation is 80%.
Seriously, this "fall" storm could kill you if not well prepared.
Sounds like a great time...when are you headed back up there? :jj:
Next September, when things have calmed down a bit! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
The real scary part of that forecast is: it's still too early for a snow cave to save you in case of an emergency. So, as well as having adequate insulation top and bottom, your tarp better hold against the heavy snow load and wind, and/or you better be able to find good wind shelter to help out your tarp. So in that way, a severe fall storm might be more of a challenge than a winter storm with a deeper snow base. As has already been said: in the cold, snow can actually be your friend.
yeah, imagine getting caught in the first storm of the season and having to walk out wiothout winter boots. almost happened to me once, i was wearing tennis shoes. luckily it wasn't that much snow and i wasn't that far out, but even something like taking the wrong shoes could be a really costly mistake if there is any signifigant snowfall
Several years ago there was a heavy snow in Indian Peaks Wilderness on Labor Day. Difficult to tell how many inches because the snow was blowing, but the drifts were over 2'. The ridge at timberline between Coney Flats and Brainard Lake was hard winter conditions. I was wearing trail runners.
When we go into the backcountry we decide whether to carry gear or technique. The wildlife will find natural shelter and survive - we can too with the right technique. A local hiking club teaches a survival class. We get to decide what balance of technique or gear we carry.
In the summer I carry extra weight because I want to hang places that do not take advantage of natural shelter.
Weight is not that much of a problem when the gear goes on a sled. The conditions I fear are 35 degrees, steady rain and gusty or below zero with no snow.
Updated the article a bit to differentiate between using a hammock in winter, which is easy to do, and being prepared for extreme conditions...a bit harder. Basically what we talked about in this thread. (Only real change was the first paragraph.)
You know what, though? No one should go out in extreme conditions with a ground setup w/o the skills to survive if the shelter broke. Hammocks are really no different. I don't think a tarp-based shelter is as storm-worthy as mountaineering tents, but with good site selection, and knowing how to build a snow trench or cave as backup, I bet gear can be purchased to cover the conditions that 95+% of people will encounter while hiking. Hammocks aren't the right tool for mountaineering...so if you take that out, winter tarps and Hammock Huts in the right sites will suffice for most winter conditions.
Still, I'd like to see a shelter based on a mountaineering-style tent...geodesic or hooped design, that will withstand direct 100mph winds. I'm surprised there aren't more hammock socks or bivy options available, too.
I wonder if Grizz's quonset hut would qualify?Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/files/4/2/3/IMG_0123.JPG
Hrm...anyone have a wind tunnel to test it? Haha! I bet it would stand up very well if the doors were replaced with a sloped entrance, like the hooped tents from Hilleberg, Stephensen, etc. With those sloped entrances the trees would have to be farther apart, though...that may present a challenge. Would probably have to add a couple more poles as well. But yeah - it looks awesome.
i have been a 4 season hanger 4 years now.aint nothing to it:cool:neo
Yeah, I know - you hammocked Antarctica with a $12 tarp, a 1/8" CCF torso pad and a HF thong! :jj:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
:laugh::lol::laugh::lol::laugh: lost a little coffee on that one... LOL!!
The things we go through for our love of hammocking ... :D
Perkolady
I really hope that image doesn't stick in my head :scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jeff
I'm obviously missing a fundamental skill here. When i think winter I think the 10' of utah snow topped with powder that I grew up camping in. How are you guys staking down a tarp in that? We never bothered to stake down tents because if the wind blew it would just pull the stake out. Vs staking down a tarp seems like a low angle and burying the sides in snow would be better than stakes.