Video : The Making of a Cuben Fiber Karo Step Under-Quilt
Sometimes making a new DIY piece of gear---and for that matter, making a video about it---is like raising a child. Takes a long time, a lot of devoted effort, doesn't come out quite the way you expect, but you love it anyway.
So here's my latest DIY gear and video child. A couple of years ago I made a summer-weight under-quilt where the layer closest to the hammock was made of cuben fiber. After starting the project I had the inspiration to make both layers of cuben, but by that time a bit too much jury-rigging would have been needed to try and pull it off. A couple of years of experience with this, and I've had no condensation issues that you might anticipate with something non-breathable so close to the body. I like very much the idea of keeping my down dry, so ever since I've had the notion to make an under-quilt from first principles that is nearly all cuben fiber, and minimizes sewing. Just for the challenge of it. Seeing various Karo step baffled quilts I thought I throw that into the mix as well. Again, for the challenge of it.
I did that this summer and shot some video of the steps along the way, but more shooting was necessary, and July is not an inspiring season to be showing off an under-quilt. Life got real busy, but I've found some time this last week to finish the filming, and make the video. Happy Thanksgiving!
Here's a teaser---watch to see how much of a hash I make of stuffing the down. I end up looking like the abominable snowman!
11-23-2011, 21:33
lostinthewuds
Well done once again Grizzly!
11-23-2011, 21:46
Hawk-eye
Great HOW-TO video Grizz! Also shows me why I really don't want to make any more down gear! Ha!
Really a great piece of gear! Loved the video opening! Slick presentation!
11-24-2011, 08:44
GrizzlyAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinthewuds
Well done once again Grizzly!
Hey thanks! You get the "first" award, posted mere minutes after the video went up. Not that there's a lot of competition :laugh: Tinny or shug I'm not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk-eye
Great HOW-TO video Grizz! Also shows me why I really don't want to make any more down gear! Ha!
Really a great piece of gear! Loved the video opening! Slick presentation!
Thanks Hawk-eye. On all the down projects but this one I worked SO HARD to avoid losing any to the air when stuffing. New philosophy---forget about it! That's what shop vacs are for, to clean up afterward.
I do like this quilt, although lightening up the suspension is a work-in-progress. Want to find a way to pull the center in and up without shock-cord through the channel. That shock cord is heavy!
When I saw the interior of the empty shell I knew I wanted a shot of wandering through it. Waited to fill the shell with down until I got a webcam that would give me that shot.
Happy Thanksgiving!
11-24-2011, 10:00
BER
Wow. Impressive as usual Grizz. I wondered how one attached a series of baffles inside and now that bit of curiosity has been satiated. Looks like a lot of work. Nicely explained.
11-24-2011, 10:29
aboyd
Great explanation, and great video. Thanks for the info.
11-24-2011, 10:31
Shug
Colonoscopy cam))))))) Been interested in this.
Now off to watch.....
Ok....I am back. Very good. I like the camo accent on the sides of that lofty cuben.
Most excellant.
Shug
11-24-2011, 10:50
WV
Griz,
Thanks for posting - looks great.
As you know, I favor bonding cuben, but for an underquilt the stresses should be much lower than they would be on a tarp seam. Do you think someone could sew a cuben UQ more easily than taping it? The baffle connections are subject to peel forces, though they should be so small that it doesn't matter. Nevertheless, a sewn baffle may resist peel force better than a taped one. All the DIYers who are comfortable with thread injectors but haven't jumped into cuben taping and bonding might like a project that works just as well with sewn cuben - if it works. Would it?
As you use this UQ, please report on any condensation issues in different weathers (and with different users, if possible). Transpiration (is that the right word? - "Sweating") is such an individual thing. If only hammocking didn't involve people we'd have no problem with temperature ratings or humidity factors. :D
I have some of the aluminized cuben, and I've thought it would make a good top layer for a winter underquilt. That could be a good application for it, as it would be less likely to get wet (barring extreme condensation). I believe it has been withdrawn because its different fabrication makes it less satisfactory for tarps, etc. Further thought: if the aluminized cuben were the bottom layer of an underquilt (or, as in my case, an insulated hammock) it should re-radiate through the down, right?
11-24-2011, 11:10
GrizzlyAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by BER
... I wondered how one attached a series of baffles inside and now that bit of curiosity has been satiated. Looks like a lot of work.
Yep, it was a lot of work. But much of the enjoyment is in the process, so the time commitment was OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aboyd
Great explanation, and great video. Thanks for the info.
Thanks for watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shug
Colonoscopy cam))))))) Been interested in this.
Now off to watch.....
Shug
Ha! We 50-somethings have colonoscopies on the brain... :cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
Griz,...
As you know, I favor bonding cuben, but for an underquilt the stresses should be much lower than they would be on a tarp seam.
yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
Do you think someone could sew a cuben UQ more easily than taping it?
I think it might be easier to sew long traditional baffle channels than taping, because of the pressure to keep those tape lines absolutely straight. I think taping the Karo step might be easier than sewing though, if only because you're not constantly fighting the sewing machine's presence in getting things lined up. One reason I taped instead of sewing is that I didn't want ANY passage of body moisture into the quilt, and didn't want to seam seal all the seams to avoid that. Probably a wash w.r.t. weight of tape vs weight of thread and seam sealer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
The baffle connections are subject to peel forces, though they should be so small that it doesn't matter. Nevertheless, a sewn baffle may resist peel force better than a taped one.
All true. If one of those interior baffles peels off, ...., :scared: But I'm not seeing how to get significant peel forces inside, so I think it's OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
As you use this UQ, please report on any condensation issues in different weathers (and with different users, if possible).
For the last couple of years I've used a combination cuben fiber + mom-90 under-quilt where the cuben was next to the hammock. Used in temps ranging from low 30's up to low 60's. Variety of humidities. I never had any condensation issues, which led me to hope and expect that that this new one would work for me just as well. But, that's me . I suspect this is a pretty individual thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
I have some of the aluminized cuben, and I've thought it would make a good top layer for a winter underquilt. That could be a good application for it, as it would be less likely to get wet (barring extreme condensation). I believe it has been withdrawn because its different fabrication makes it less satisfactory for tarps, etc. Further thought: if the aluminized cuben were the bottom layer of an underquilt (or, as in my case, an insulated hammock) it should re-radiate through the down, right?
I don't see why that shouldn't work if the top layer were cuben also.
Your next project! :laugh:
11-24-2011, 11:24
MAD777
Nicely done video! I just finished my 1st karo quilt this summer also. I did not find it any easier than the several conventional quilts that I have made. In fact, I prefer the conventional method.
I have two questions about the results of using cuben for the underquilt, which can be answered only after using it a few nights.
1. Is condensation a problem
2. Does the quilt make excessive noise when you turn (I toss & turn a lot).
One thing that impressed/scared me was to see how you were not at all gentle with the quilt and the fact that you used a single fold a cuben for shockcord channels. You're a brave man!
11-24-2011, 16:38
dragon360
Quite impressive project! Thank you for the detailed walk through - that is one fine piece of gear.
11-24-2011, 17:54
MedicineMan
Instructional brilliance! You are the PROFESSOR!
I pronounce karo 'care oh'...whereas you pronounce karo 'Cairo'...why is that?
What is the can on the corner of the table by the thread injector? Looks like tomato soup.
That Speer 900 fill looks very familiar? am I known to that stash?
Just thought of a partial pressure breathing device for distributing down...thoughts?
And no I won't ask for a PayPal button--things this immaculate, this spectacular are deserving only to those with the grey matter to create them!
Down air mat too! Did you test with your body weight?
Absolutely beautiful genius Grizz.
11-24-2011, 19:15
GrizzlyAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAD777
Nicely done video! I just finished my 1st karo quilt this summer also. I did not find it any easier than the several conventional quilts that I have made. In fact, I prefer the conventional method.
I agree. Overall, I think the conventional approach is the easier one. Remains to see if the greater ability to move down around inside when hanging it is a boon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAD777
I have two questions about the results of using cuben for the underquilt, which can be answered only after using it a few nights.
1. Is condensation a problem
2. Does the quilt make excessive noise when you turn (I toss & turn a lot).
For #1, see my answer to WV. Experience with another quilt suggests not, at least not for me. For #2, no. I've been out with this quilt a couple of nights recently in the yard, no noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAD777
One thing that impressed/scared me was to see how you were not at all gentle with the quilt and the fact that you used a single fold a cuben for shockcord channels. You're a brave man!
The stuff is very tough, except in the vicinity of pointy sharp objects. The bonds are as strong as the fabric, knowledge revealed by testing done by WV and others. My other quilt with a cuben layer uses the same single fold channel, and looks OK after a couple of years of use, not terribly hard use, sad to say. But yes, abrasion that might tear the channel is on the "watch-for" list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon360
Quite impressive project! Thank you for the detailed walk through - that is one fine piece of gear.
Thanks, I'm liking it. Glad you appreciate my compulsive need to explain all kinds of obvious details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan
I pronounce karo 'care oh'...whereas you pronounce karo 'Cairo'...why is that?
Brain fart. I almost always say 'care oh' too. All kinds of crap come out of my brain and mouth when I get in front of a camera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan
What is the can on the corner of the table by the thread injector? Looks like tomato soup.
Yep, I have a few big cans of soup I use to weight down the ends of fabric when I'm stretching them out on the floor. Here that can and its brother were holding the quilt up at the table level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan
That Speer 900 fill looks very familiar? am I known to that stash?
I do believe a certain peapod over-stuffing project was fueled by that stash!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan
Down air mat too! Did you test with your body weight?
oh no, not a down air mat like that. If I laid on it all the air would go swooshing out the ends. But it is like a self-inflating air mattress, the point of my reference, except it has no valves.
thanks for the interest everyone :thumbup1:
11-24-2011, 21:59
SmokeBait
Another great video Professor. That's a dandy UQ and a nice fit on the Grizz Bridge.
11-24-2011, 22:50
MedicineMan
No I was just wondering if you could...picture webbing and snap buckles...roll topping the ends a couple of rolls trapping the air in and webbing snap buckles to the sides to hold the air in mattress style.....so the real question is this, are the cuben taped bonds strong enough to support your weight....I'd bet yes since there are so many of them will that huge number of baffles....not that we'd ever want to lay on it on the ground or a shelter-just thinking out loud with my typical results.
On crinkles--I think its like tyvek, the more its used the less crinkling.
11-24-2011, 23:10
wisenber
That was quite a project and a video!
Just out of curiosity, how much loft did your hard wood floors have when you finished?:confused:
11-24-2011, 23:52
GrizzlyAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBait
Another great video Professor. That's a dandy UQ and a nice fit on the Grizz Bridge.
and camo coordinated, for the fashionable hammocking set :cool: Thanks for watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan
No I was just wondering if you could...picture webbing and snap buckles...roll topping the ends a couple of rolls trapping the air in and webbing snap buckles to the sides to hold the air in mattress style.....so the real question is this, are the cuben taped bonds strong enough to support your weight....I'd bet yes since there are so many of them will that huge number of baffles....not that we'd ever want to lay on it on the ground or a shelter-just thinking out loud with my typical results.
That's interesting, like the seal on a dry-bag. That might be made to work. The cuben bonds are up to it I think. I'd be afraid of puncturing it through. Any sharp thing on the ground....pop!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisenber
That was quite a project and a video!
Just out of curiosity, how much loft did your hard wood floors have when you finished?:confused:
Ha! Less than you'd think, a few grams escaped, less than 3 grams, judging from the volume (and way too much experience moving down 2-3 grams at a time from one of the Speers bags into a quilt's baffle).
11-25-2011, 00:03
MrClean417
Thats a whole lotta tapein Griz. Looks good though.
11-25-2011, 00:22
MedicineMan
'2-3 grams at a time' should i feel guilt at that? I hope not!
11-25-2011, 01:46
Dutch
Been planning CF UQ myself and this will help. I have a roll of that 1/3 ounce per yard CF to use up. I will probably choose traditional baffles though. Thanks for showing us the way.
11-25-2011, 13:29
MarshLaw303
Cuben quilts are the reason I went to KARO. Almost 1/3 the total baffle length keeps the taping and tape weight way down. I use single sided Mylar tape from quest as it is much stronger than the sail tape in peal. Single sided also allows narrower baffles and lower tape weight, but at a higher cost. Griz, I sew my edge seams which is much easier than taping or glueing, was wondering why you chose to bond? In a tq the side seams are under very minimal stress, maybe the UQ requires stronger sides.
-Tim
11-25-2011, 14:13
GrizzlyAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshLaw303
Cuben quilts are the reason I went to KARO. Almost 1/3 the total baffle length keeps the taping and tape weight way down.
excellent point!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshLaw303
I use single sided Mylar tape from quest as it is much stronger than the sail tape in peal. Single sided also allows narrower baffles and lower tape weight, but at a higher cost.
Another excellent point, but to get the lower tape weight you have to cut the tape. The single-sided stuff I've used was 1" wide...do you cut that down the middle for 1/4" on the baffe and 1/4" on the shell? Or just narrow it, say to 3/4" and get no use from the residual..?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshLaw303
Griz, I sew my edge seams which is much easier than taping or glueing, was wondering why you chose to bond? In a tq the side seams are under very minimal stress, maybe the UQ requires stronger sides.
It was a point of honor, I was trying to limit any and all air acess to the quilt to be at the ends. Probably would be different if I were building these for sale, thread is a lot cheaper! Even if I had sewn the sides I still would bond the channel because that is under stress.
11-25-2011, 15:04
Dos
enjoyed your well thought out video.
I am always amused by the fast forwarding sections.
It puts some entertainment value in the learning curve. :eek:
11-25-2011, 15:27
MarshLaw303
I was thinking the 1" tape was lighter due to the lack of double sided adhesive but maybe I was wrong, if your tape is the same I have the adhesive is much thicker than on the mylar tape, once stuck though it is dangerous to try and reposition the Mylar tape, I ripped a few when testing it months ago.
Love the quilt, I am planning something similar for the site by spring
11-25-2011, 17:13
GrizzlyAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshLaw303
I was thinking the 1" tape was lighter due to the lack of double sided adhesive but maybe I was wrong, if your tape is the same I have the adhesive is much thicker than on the mylar tape, once stuck though it is dangerous to try and reposition the Mylar tape, I ripped a few when testing it months ago.
Love the quilt, I am planning something similar for the site by spring
Wonder if you're looking at the double-sided stuff that questoutfitters sells. That is thick and heavy, owing to a layer that has adhesive on both sides. The 3M tape I'm using (similar but not identical to the tape that WV tested and SgtRock demonstrated in his tarp-making video) is sort of like a layer of rubber cement that has congealed a bit already. And, unlike the double-side stuff from questoutfitters, is largely transparent because of it.
I got a bunch of rolls on advice from Steven Evans but the very poor peel strength made me nervous so I went back to my Mylar stuff
-Tim
11-25-2011, 18:48
GrizzlyAdams
Not same as the stuff I've this, here, also from sailrite.
The resistance to peeling is definitely poor and if I were building quilts for sale like you I'd use something different. My stuff is more resilient to misapplication of the baffle edge though, I can lift it off and put it back down again properly without tearing. The "other" 3M stuff that WV has tested seems to be quite a bit better that way, but I didn't have any of that at the time I built the quilt.
11-25-2011, 19:06
MarshLaw303
I do like that it can be repositioned, a great feature. Ultimately if it works who cares which tape I justed added the one I use hopefully not out if line.
11-25-2011, 19:09
MarshLaw303
Also I never used the c3 past doing a peel test so I am not saying it won't last or anything like that, I just feel better with the other stuff. Single sided also works better for the way I build them
11-26-2011, 16:30
FireInMyBones
Very nice. I've been wondering about the use of cuben in an UQ for a while now. Thanks for showing the way.
11-27-2011, 10:29
hangnout
Another great instructional video! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
BTW something that may get lost in all the CF talk is how you made your suspension using the side channel and corner attachment. This solves the problem of UQ's sliding inward causing a cold spot but still keeps the sides pulled up tight. I have been using the linelocs on the corners for a couple years and will be trying this on some of my UQ's.
