42 Degree's In My New Clark Getting In A Sleeping Bag In A Hammock

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10-10-2007, 08:48
cavediver2

42 Degree's In My New Clark Getting In A Sleeping Bag In A Hammock

Well I Got My New Clark In Yesterday And Slept In Last Night After Screwing Around With The Way I Had It Set Up AND On Two Different Times I Managed To Get It Setup The Way I Liked It. Now Comes The Fun Part Getting Into Sleeping Bag Inside The Hammock. Now I Know There Are Allot Folks Out Here That Can Just Jump Into The Hammock And Have There Sleeping Bag On In No Time But This Is Not The Case For Me I Ended Up With The Sleeping Bag Unzippped All The Way So It Was More Like A Blanket That Kept Wading Up On Me. At 1am I Got Up To Let My Bladder Run Out And Ended Up Zipping The Fooot End Of Sleeping Bag Togeather But It Took An Act Of Congress To Get Me And The Sleeping Bag All Layed Out Inside The Hammock. At 6 Am I Got Up Because Neihbors Dog Was Barking At Who Know What Just To Be Barking Or To Wake Me Up At This Point I Did'nt Care Cause I Had To Pee Again To Much Whiskey Last Night Before Bed. So After Getting Up Yet Again To Pee When I Was Done I Grabbed My Sleeping Bag Out Of Hammock And Stand In Front Of Hammock Inside My Sleeping Bag All Put Up Around My Shoulders And Sat Back In Hammock Brushed My Feet Off And Swong Them Inside The Hammock Where I Layed Back And Found My Sweet Spot Again Until That Dadblam Cell Phone In My Pocket Out Side The Hammock Went Off I Forgot To Turn The Alarm Off Of It So It Sat Out There Ringing Ringing Ringing And I Said Alright Already Im Getting Up To My Self. So Now Im In The House Writing This Out For All To See. Oh Did I Mention During The Set Up Faze Of This I Broke One Of The Little Clips When I Set Down The Bungee Cord Clip Broke Now (nogods) Had Warned Me About It And I Even Went The Extra Step On Makeing Sure I Did'nt Do What He Did But Somewhere That Went Out The Door I Guess Cause I Did Break It Just Like He Hand Warned Me About Dangit.

Weather Outside Was 42deg Out I Had A Very Light Sleeping Bag Maybe A 50deg Bag And No Pad Of Any Kind Under Me And Nothing In The Pockets Of The Hammock And The Only Thing I Wore To Bed Was My Under Armer Underwear As At Times I Had To ThrOW Sleeping Bag Off Of Me Becuase I Was Way To Hot To The Point Of Sweating Well Of Course The Wind Was Blowing Some So I Cooled Of Quickly And Covered Back Up.

So My Question To You Seasoned Or Unseasoned Hammockers Is How Do You All Get Into Your Sleeping Bag In Your Hammocks Is There Any Little Trick Of The Trade Because Im Sure This Will Be Allot More Difficult When I Go To Put My 0 Degree Bag That Only Zips Half Way Down The Side In And Try To Sleep On It This Winter.

I Am Going To Try This Again Tonight And Im Sure Sooner Or Later I Will Figure It Out But It's Not The Same As Sleeping In My Other Open Air Type Hammock.

Thanks For The Comments
10-10-2007, 09:07
Cannibal

Quilt, quilt, quilt.

Lots easier to stick your feet into a foot pocket, than it is to get your body into a bag. The bag underneath you is all but worthless anyway. Plus, you get to shave ounces...yiiipppeee!
10-10-2007, 09:15
nogods

That's my plan - just use the bag like like a quilt and depend on a pad and insulation in the pockets for warmth underneath.
10-10-2007, 09:31
lvleph

I use my sleeping bag as a quilt. It is kind of nice because I pull the part that normally would be underneath the back of my head over my face to give me a bit more warmth. However, for me the foot box is not an issue since my bag is only a half zip. You could always make you sleeping bag into a half zip or just convert it to a quilt with a foot box. I think that would be the best solution.
10-10-2007, 10:31
FreeTheWeasel

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavediver2

Weather Outside Was 42deg Out I Had A Very Light Sleeping Bag Maybe A 50deg Bag And No Pad Of Any Kind Under Me And Nothing In The Pockets Of The Hammock And The Only Thing I Wore To Bed Was My Under Armer Underwear As At Times I Had To ThrOW Sleeping Bag Off Of Me Becuase I Was Way To Hot To The Point Of Sweating Well Of Course The Wind Was Blowing Some So I Cooled Of Quickly And Covered Back Up.

I find it really interesting that you were able to sleep in 42 F weather with only a thing sleeping bag and I was cold at 40 last night with all kinds of gear.

I consider myself to be fairly warm when I sleep too. It really is all relative and although all the advice on this forum is helpful, I'm discovering that you really need to test out the system yourself in the weather you expect to encounter.

I'm moving to a top quilt but I have managed to use sleeping bags in the hammock. The trick I used was to unzip the bag most of the way, get in the hammock and then pull the bag over you like a quilt, putting your feet in the section that is still zippered. You can stop there if you want or, if you want to close it up, pull the bottom side under your lower half by lifting your legs. Once that is in position, lift your upper body by bending at the waist and slide the top half under you. It helps to have the sleeping bag fully extended so that the hood is at the right vertical distance. It seemed easier to slide the bag side to side than up and down when your body is in the way.
10-10-2007, 12:05
lvleph

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeTheWeasel

I find it really interesting that you were able to sleep in 42 F weather with only a thing sleeping bag and I was cold at 40 last night with all kinds of gear.

I consider myself to be fairly warm when I sleep too. It really is all relative and although all the advice on this forum is helpful, I'm discovering that you really need to test out the system yourself in the weather you expect to encounter.

I'm moving to a top quilt but I have managed to use sleeping bags in the hammock. The trick I used was to unzip the bag most of the way, get in the hammock and then pull the bag over you like a quilt, putting your feet in the section that is still zippered. You can stop there if you want or, if you want to close it up, pull the bottom side under your lower half by lifting your legs. Once that is in position, lift your upper body by bending at the waist and slide the top half under you. It helps to have the sleeping bag fully extended so that the hood is at the right vertical distance. It seemed easier to slide the bag side to side than up and down when your body is in the way.

I used a CCF pad when I was at SEHHA last spring. It got down to the low 40's. NCPatrick and others can vouch for that. I do agree that every person is different and it is very difficult to say that what works for me will work for someone else. My wife seems to get by with the same setup that I use. We were down to the mid 40's a couple weekends ago and she only complained about her feet being cold. However, our setup ended up with me slightly under her, so I think I provided her with some warmth. I was testing out my new stealth. That thing is nice! No condensation at all. Chantelle complained a bit about condensation from the sleeping pad. She was using two 1/8" GG Thinlights. One sideways and one the running lengthwise.
10-10-2007, 12:28
NCPatrick

Quote:

Originally Posted by lvleph

NCPatrick and others can vouch for that.

Just vouching. :)
10-10-2007, 13:14
hangnout

Quote:

That's my plan - just use the bag like like a quilt and depend on a pad and insulation in the pockets for warmth underneath.

Definitly easier and more comfortable using as a quilt but if you still are feeling cold get in the bag and zip it up to retain more heat.
10-10-2007, 13:25
Hooch

Quote:

Originally Posted by lvleph

NCPatrick and others can vouch for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCPatrick

Just vouching. :)

I'll second that vouch. :D
10-10-2007, 14:07
lvleph

In fact, most looked at me a little strange when all I had was a pad. I do thank Youngblood for loaning me the SPE. That most certainly made all the difference in the world. Those wings are where it is at for pads in hammocks.
10-11-2007, 11:37
ZDP-189

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavediver2

Well I Got My New Clark In Yesterday And Slept In Last Night After Screwing Around With The Way I Had It Set Up AND On Two Different Times I Managed To Get It Setup The Way I Liked It. Now Comes The Fun Part Getting Into Sleeping Bag Inside The Hammock. Now I Know There Are Allot Folks Out Here That Can Just Jump Into The Hammock And Have There Sleeping Bag On In No Time But This Is Not The Case For Me I Ended Up With The Sleeping Bag Unzippped All The Way So It Was More Like A Blanket That Kept Wading Up On Me. At 1am I Got Up To Let My Bladder Run Out And Ended Up Zipping The Fooot End Of Sleeping Bag Togeather But It Took An Act Of Congress To Get Me And The Sleeping Bag All Layed Out Inside The Hammock. At 6 Am I Got Up Because Neihbors Dog Was Barking At Who Know What Just To Be Barking Or To Wake Me Up At This Point I Did'nt Care Cause I Had To Pee Again To Much Whiskey Last Night Before Bed. So After Getting Up Yet Again To Pee When I Was Done I Grabbed My Sleeping Bag Out Of Hammock And Stand In Front Of Hammock Inside My Sleeping Bag All Put Up Around My Shoulders And Sat Back In Hammock Brushed My Feet Off And Swong Them Inside The Hammock Where I Layed Back And Found My Sweet Spot Again Until That Dadblam Cell Phone In My Pocket Out Side The Hammock Went Off I Forgot To Turn The Alarm Off Of It So It Sat Out There Ringing Ringing Ringing And I Said Alright Already Im Getting Up To My Self. So Now Im In The House Writing This Out For All To See. Oh Did I Mention During The Set Up Faze Of This I Broke One Of The Little Clips When I Set Down The Bungee Cord Clip Broke Now (nogods) Had Warned Me About It And I Even Went The Extra Step On Makeing Sure I Did'nt Do What He Did But Somewhere That Went Out The Door I Guess Cause I Did Break It Just Like He Hand Warned Me About Dangit.

Weather Outside Was 42deg Out I Had A Very Light Sleeping Bag Maybe A 50deg Bag And No Pad Of Any Kind Under Me And Nothing In The Pockets Of The Hammock And The Only Thing I Wore To Bed Was My Under Armer Underwear As At Times I Had To ThrOW Sleeping Bag Off Of Me Becuase I Was Way To Hot To The Point Of Sweating Well Of Course The Wind Was Blowing Some So I Cooled Of Quickly And Covered Back Up.

So My Question To You Seasoned Or Unseasoned Hammockers Is How Do You All Get Into Your Sleeping Bag In Your Hammocks Is There Any Little Trick Of The Trade Because Im Sure This Will Be Allot More Difficult When I Go To Put My 0 Degree Bag That Only Zips Half Way Down The Side In And Try To Sleep On It This Winter.

I Am Going To Try This Again Tonight And Im Sure Sooner Or Later I Will Figure It Out But It's Not The Same As Sleeping In My Other Open Air Type Hammock.

Thanks For The Comments

mAN, tHAT'S AN intErEsTiNg POST, BUt aN odd WAY OF tyPiNg whERE yOu cAPitalIsE THe FIRST leTTer of evERY worD. I HaD NEVer tHOUGhT abouT It BEFOrE buT it's RealLY StRANge LoOKiNG.
10-11-2007, 11:45
lvleph

It made it difficult to read.
10-11-2007, 11:57
cavediver2

Thats what happens when the cap locks are left on

Sorry but that is my screw up I left the cap lock on. (AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO SUCH A THING.)
WELL IT DID IT IN THE OTHER POST MAYBE IT DOES NOT DO IT IN A REPLY
10-11-2007, 12:06
peanuts

i have a solution......don't use caps at all...:D:D
this are not formal emails.....
10-11-2007, 12:17
GREEN THERAPY

Are all of you getting in a top loading hammocks? The ones I have are all top loading and the method I use is as follows:

Hang headlamp on ridge line, and turn on so not totally in the dark.

1) position pad in hammock.

2) lay sleeping bag on pad with zipper at the top and unzipped almost to the foot box

3) spread the bag open and have the hood positioned where my head will end up at when laying down.

4) holding near edge of sleeping bag against top near edge of hammock, sit in hammock, swing feet in and lay down.

5) a few small wiggles and pulls and there is my sweet spot.

6) zip bug net shut, zip bag as closed as I need to for warmth. ( most times just tuck feet in foot box and leave unzipped and thats good till about 40 F. Any lower and zip it up higher )

7) get out book and read for a bit. Head lamp on ridgeline works great and batteries last for hours.

8) put book in ridgline pocket, hang glasses on ridge line, turn out lite and the rain falling on the tarp lulls me to sleep.

Has been a very rainy summer and fall here.

The key to that system is top loading and turning the sleeping bag so the zipper is centered on the top. And that said this self proclaimed know it all, is the best method. OK I do digress.:D
10-11-2007, 13:03
GrizzlyAdams

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavediver2

Sorry but that is my screw up I left the cap lock on. (AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO SUCH A THING.)
WELL IT DID IT IN THE OTHER POST MAYBE IT DOES NOT DO IT IN A REPLY

A while back some other contributor had similar posts where every word was capitalized. Having the caps lock on doesn't explain it, I don't think, at least not completely. I wondered if whatever browser you're using was "helping". For example, Microsoft Office products want to fix things that I type, and capitalizing the first word of every line is something that Powerpoint does in a textbox.

I wonder also if you see every word capitalized as you type, or is does this transformation occur after you push the "Submit Reply" button. Or are you writing the post in an editor, then cutting-and-pasting.

'tis a mystery here, for sure.

Grizz
10-11-2007, 13:07
NCPatrick

Quote:

Originally Posted by GREEN THERAPY

Has been a very rainy summer and fall here.

Can you send some of that down south please? I've almost forgotten what this thing you call "rain" is.
10-11-2007, 13:21
Cannibal

Just not real far South; I'm sick of the rain!
10-11-2007, 13:25
nogods

I found an old sleepcell Cellcorp sleeping bag I bought from Kmart for $20 a few years ago - it isn't a "long" bag but it is very wide. It is rated as a 40 degree bag. It has a center zipper, a draw string hood, and two zippered side vents. I made a sleeping bag robe out of it by unstiching the foot section with my handy seam ripper (I can't sew but I can un-sew). I'm having the outside and inside covers sewn back together separately on each side so that I'll have a hole in the foot end of the bag. The hole is wide enough for me to spread my feat out and walk with the bag on. I then cut some of the mesh that is attached to the zippered side vents so I can stick my arms out.

I can step into it before I get in the hammock, eliminating any struggle with a sleeping bag. I can get out of my hammock with it still on and unzip the center zipper to relieve myself if needed. I may have a zipper or velcro put on the bottom so I can close it up, but I don't think it would be good for any sub-freezing weather anyway so that would probably be a waste of money.
10-11-2007, 13:51
stoikurt

Frog Sac

Sounds like you made a DIY Frog Sac.
10-11-2007, 14:13
nogods

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoikurt

Sounds like you made a DIY Frog Sac.

Yeah - somewhat similar - except the frog sac has more fetures, weighs less, and packs smaller (and appears to be cat-proof according to the pictures.) Of course mine only cost $20.
10-11-2007, 14:27
Miguel

Quote:

Originally Posted by GREEN THERAPY

Are all of you getting in a top loading hammocks? The ones I have are all top loading and the method I use is as follows:

Hang headlamp on ridge line, and turn on so not totally in the dark.

1) position pad in hammock.

2) lay sleeping bag on pad with zipper at the top and unzipped almost to the foot box

3) spread the bag open and have the hood positioned where my head will end up at when laying down.

4) holding near edge of sleeping bag against top near edge of hammock, sit in hammock, swing feet in and lay down.

5) a few small wiggles and pulls and there is my sweet spot.

6) zip bug net shut, zip bag as closed as I need to for warmth. ( most times just tuck feet in foot box and leave unzipped and thats good till about 40 F. Any lower and zip it up higher )

7) get out book and read for a bit. Head lamp on ridgeline works great and batteries last for hours.

8) put book in ridgline pocket, hang glasses on ridge line, turn out lite and the rain falling on the tarp lulls me to sleep.

Has been a very rainy summer and fall here.

The key to that system is top loading and turning the sleeping bag so the zipper is centered on the top. And that said this self proclaimed know it all, is the best method. OK I do digress.:D

I usually use the bag as a top quilt with a partially zipped foot box but when I need full coverage your system is spot on. And yes, zipper on top is the key ingredient. Also, it seems the more I hang the more I'm able to finagle things in my hammock.

Miguel
10-11-2007, 18:03
cavediver2

getting in

well that is what I may have been doing wrong is not laying zipper up I had it on the side the first night second night i put it on outside hammock first and then got in that worked good but when you get out to pea twice a night this get's old real quick.

thinking about useing a gatorade bottle. that way once im in im in for the night.
10-12-2007, 14:50
GREEN THERAPY

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavediver2

well that is what I may have been doing wrong is not laying zipper up I had it on the side the first night second night i put it on outside hammock first and then got in that worked good but when you get out to pea twice a night this get's old real quick.

thinking about useing a gatorade bottle. that way once im in im in for the night.

I for whatever reason am a three pee a nite kinda guy and the zipper to the top with the head lite hanging on the ridge line so I can see for a quick "re-arrange"works the best I have found. Somehow I just can't bring myself to using the gator aid bottle. Mabe if the temp was a lot lower than we normaly get here in the winter it would be a lot more apealing.
10-12-2007, 15:06
Rapt

But think of the consequences of a mishap!!!! :eek:
10-12-2007, 16:48
BillyBob58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavediver2

Sorry but that is my screw up I left the cap lock on. (AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DO SUCH A THING.)
WELL IT DID IT IN THE OTHER POST MAYBE IT DOES NOT DO IT IN A REPLY

I am forever hitting cap lock by accident, and discovering it after several sentences. Truly irritating. Oh well, never had a typing lesson. Raised before the days of computer keyboards.
10-12-2007, 16:59
FanaticFringer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapt

But think of the consequences of a mishap!!!! :eek:

That's why I dont do it. I dont want a lemon-lime JRB underquilt.:D
10-12-2007, 18:59
aerorider65

Ok so I must be the odd one here. I have a HH explorer D. With my DIY underquilt and a cheap 20 degree bag I sleep just fine down to at least 40 (it hasn't gotten colder to try it out lower.) My bag is a left zip mummy bag, that is a huge improvement over the first bag I tried which was a right zip and a rectangular one. Too much bag, zipper on the wrong side. I place it in the hammock in a diagonal position and then sit down on it, pivot my feet in place, squirm a bit and then pull and tug the sides a bit and zip up. It took me 4 or 5 nights towork out the moving around thing, but a bag works fine for me. It wasn't intuitive the first time but experience helps. Even getting out to relieve myself is coming quicker with practice.
10-12-2007, 21:42
BillyBob58

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerorider65

Ok so I must be the odd one here. I have a HH explorer D. With my DIY underquilt and a cheap 20 degree bag I sleep just fine down to at least 40 (it hasn't gotten colder to try it out lower.) My bag is a left zip mummy bag, that is a huge improvement over the first bag I tried which was a right zip and a rectangular one. Too much bag, zipper on the wrong side. I place it in the hammock in a diagonal position and then sit down on it, pivot my feet in place, squirm a bit and then pull and tug the sides a bit and zip up. It took me 4 or 5 nights towork out the moving around thing, but a bag works fine for me. It wasn't intuitive the first time but experience helps. Even getting out to relieve myself is coming quicker with practice.

That is pretty much my technique when I need the hooded mummy bag capabilities. I do most of it while still sitting, pulling the hood over my head before I ever lay down. But my last trip only got to 40, and I just used it as a quilt with footbox.
10-13-2007, 11:08
cavediver2

4th night in Clark

Well after the first couple of nights hanging and reading how everyone gets into sleeping bag and hammock. So I desided on useing FreeTheWeasle's way and it worked out great. It's been in the low 40's and high 30's here all week so it has been great testing these things like bag how to get into it, peaing in a gatoraid bottle while in hammock and not makeing a mess. I take hammock down everyday and put into stuff sack. And put it back up before each night just to get use to it all. Last night was the 4th night out I am starting to think that my neihbors think im nut's or going through a divorce and I am not married but they have been seeing me allot outside hanging in eighter of my hammocks but anyhow last night I started before dark putting it all together and comming from my DIVING BACKGROUND I teach my students to do simple task with there eyes closed well that is what I did last night from start to finish with eyes closed from tying the knots on the fly to hanging of the hammock and that included getting it out of stuff sac, makeing sure that the fly was what felt good and strainght and tight putting sleeping bag in and and lastly getting in hammock. It all worked then I opened my eyes and it looked great. again I slept in just my underarmer underwear and that was it I was toasty in bag still have to open it up from time to time to keep from getting to hot. I am useing my pillow off my bed in the house and not the one that I use for backpacking but other than that everything would be as if I was back packing. I am so glad that ( FREETHEWEASLE ) said how he get's into his bag it made this so much easyer. Now I wonder what big change's I will have to make when it drops down in the low 30's to 20's I would say that I might have to add long underwear to my pack but other than that I should be fine, cant wait to find out though.
10-13-2007, 14:00
BillyBob58

One question: Are you using anything ( pad, quilt?) UNDERNEATH for warmth, other than your sleeping bag?
10-13-2007, 17:42
nogods

I don't know about cavediver2, but one of the reasons I bought a Clark was so I wouldn't have to pack an underquilt or overcover. If I can't figure out how to stay warm in the cold without the extra equipment then I might as well return the Clark and buy a less expensive alternative or make a hammock and then invest in the underquilts, overquilts, undercovers and overcovers, etc.

I was warm enough to sleep last night with a low of 38 using a 20" walmart pad, my usualy compliment of sleep clothing for cold weather, and a 40 degree sleeping bag. There is more of a wind tonight so it will be a better test.
10-13-2007, 22:25
cavediver2

No I did'nt use a pad or anything I was useing a sleeping bag bought a Sam's Club some 6 years ago I am not sure what the rateing was but if I had to guess it would be somewhere around 45 or 50 degree very very thin Just a POS sleeping bag. I do have a zero degree bag that I will use when it get's colder what degree colder not sure of that yet I slept last year on the ground no tent and no tarp just out on the froze ground with a guide series self inflating pad and it was somewhere around 15 degress when we got caught out and wind was blowing some 10mile and hour so I am not sure what wind chill was but other than poly underwear and fleese hat that was it and I was again too warm had to vent several times that night.

As for finding out what I can do in this Clark only time will tell and NOGODS and a host of other folks that gave me good advice on buying my Clark Hammock my hat is off to each and everyone of you I could'nt be happyer This hammock is the S%$# I will tell all my friends out there about it and what I think about it. I am not saying that I will not buy another because sometime next month I want o buy a HH deluxe. I did order another Clark for my son yes I know I said that I would give him my tent but after sleeping in this 4 day's now I could not with out feeling bad let him sleep in a tent. He is a very you 18yr old and has girlfriend that backpack with us and she will use tent unless she desides to buy a clark herself.

So again thanks to all of you that had a part in my buying the Clark you were not wrong.
10-14-2007, 04:20
6 feet over

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZDP-189

mAN, tHAT'S AN intErEsTiNg POST, BUt aN odd WAY OF tyPiNg whERE yOu cAPitalIsE THe FIRST leTTer of evERY worD. I HaD NEVer tHOUGhT abouT It BEFOrE buT it's RealLY StRANge LoOKiNG.

Not to mention unnecessarily hard to read.
07-11-2012, 08:09
Manchego

Resurrecting a 5 yr old thread.....

I use sleeping bags, including a 0 bag when it gets cold. Method for sleeping bag is the same, spread it out roughly, sit on it, lay down, zip in, etc. Place feet in bag, pull up one side (I typicaly go to the right), roll to that side, pull up other side, roll back. I typically end up sleeping with the zipper on top of me rather than the side, but it works well generally. If it's below freezing I'll end up with the zipper on the side.

Insulation wise, I got one of the HH reflective pads. They're nice. Was in a HH at 34 degrees with a 50 degree bag and backside wasn't cold with it. Wish I had my Clark back then though.
07-11-2012, 10:00
Bradley

I don't seem to have any real problems using a bag,
stand beside the Hammock, step into the bag pulling it over my head,
get in hammock.

Works OK . . . don't see a need to change. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyBob58

I am forever hitting cap lock by accident, and discovering it after several sentences. Truly irritating. Oh well, never had a typing lesson. Raised before the days of computer keyboards.

Me to . . . so I slipped a knife under the button,

and flipped it out. :D

If I ever need the C-lock I just push it down with a pen.
07-13-2012, 12:56
cavediver2

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6 feet over

Not to mention unnecessarily hard to read.

I am not sure when i wrote that it was like that and for the life of me i can't figure out how i would have done that. and your right it is very hard to read and I wrote the **** thing.:rolleyes: