HELP - sewing 4 layers of ripstop - issues

Hello,

I am having trouble sewing 4 layers of ripstop. The top thread keeps breaking. I have tried both 14 and 16 needles and both universal and ballpoint. I am using Gutterman thread. I have also tried Coats and Clarks which was horrible. I am close to ordering thread from Speer as I am unable to identify the thread weight on what I have.

I have tried adjusting the tension on both bottom and top. Matter of fact I have zero tension on the top - spool to the spring. I have a old singer 15-91. I can sew two layers but I am obviously missing something.

Any ideas?

I believe that the top thread on the stitch is actually fed from the bobbin. I would say you need to adjust the bobbin tension.

Disclaimer. I'm far from an expert but from what I understand, you want to be careful about messing with the bobbin tension.

There's nothing wrong with Speer thread but I don't think the thread is your problem so i wouldn't order it just yet. Gutterman thread is top notch IMO and experience. One of the more experienced guys will be along shortly.

The top thread is from the spool on top.
You should not need to adjust your bobbin tension unless you messed it up adjusting before.

Gutterman thread should be more than fine
if you are having no difficulty with sewing two layers you should have no breakage problems sewing 4
unless your thread or needle is too big for the machine.

Carefully recheck the threading of the machine... both spool and bobbin
make sure the bobbin thread is moving easily and the wpool thread is threaded through all the springs and stuff.

Hi, first off is your fabric coated or uncoated?
are you sewing at a slow pace or at high speed?
if your fabric is coated and you sew fast the heat may melt the coating and snag the thread.
make sure your needle is sharp and not blunt
did you check the tensioning mechanism on the top thread?
sometimes if the thread isn't properly placed, it may add tension and snap it
to test it lower the presser foot and try to pull on the thread... if it doesn't move and your tensionner is at min pressure, you have a snag somewhere.
also make sure your presser foot doesn't have too much pressure.

check the bobbin tension, depending on the model (I'm not sure what your model looks like, is it the old black steel model?) if you have a bobbin casing, there are screws on the side to adjust it, no too tight. With a proper stich no loops are to be visible on either side, the connection point should be in the middle of the material.
hope it helps.
keep us posted
FRED

Is it 1.1 oz or 1.9 oz ripstop?
Is it sil or uncoated?
If you can sew 2, but not 4, layers I would suspect a dull needle. But that would not explain breaking thread, especially with 0 tension on the top ... hmmm.... Is the thread feeding from the top spool freely? Anything catching it?

Ripstop is pretty slick, the difference between 2 and 4 layers is minimal for a machine.

I remember reading somewhere that you should not fool with the bottom tension (the screw on the bobbin holder). 99.99% of the adjustments you need to make can be done from the top tension. Unless... it is a rusty, dirty, un-oiled, old machine, or something has been abused at some time or another.

Also check how you have the needle inserted in the machine.

On one side of the needle you will find a slot for the thread. When sewing the thread rides inside that slot.

If that slot is on the wrong side when in the machine, the thread will break, especially when sewing thick, stiff or heavy material.

Check the instructions and make sure you have the needle inserted properly.

If you don't have the instructions, consult a professional repairman. On some machines, the slot faces to the left and on some to the right. It all depends on how the machine was designed to operate.

Hmm, I just went through 4 layers like they were butter. Don't know what weight it is but it's uncoated. Just your run of the mill JoAnn's ripstop. I think my thread tension was about 4. I'm using an 80s Singer Merritt 2404.

ETA: I'm using a #9 needle.

When using upholstery thread, I've had to go to a size 18 or 19 needle.

Is the thread shredding at the needle when it breaks, or is it a clean break?

Have a Singer 15-91. In the learning phase of sewing. Using the thread available from RayJardine. #14 sharp Organ needle. No problems going through 4 layers of silnylon. Not sure on the weight of the silnylon (scrap pieces). Have been able to re-hem some bluejeans & canvas trousers without any real problems. These old Singers with the correct combination of thread and needle should be able handle 4 layers of ripstop. Are you sure the thread is running between the disks on the tension adjustment part? Flat side of needle shaft facing to your left?

1. The only possible way you can break the top thread is if something is binding it. And it DOES feed from the top.
2. Check the threading pattern. The thread should pull through the needle smoothly when you tug on it AND the swing arm - that arm that goes up and down as you stitch - is in the right position, part way down before the needle moves downward. The machine is supposed to release some of the thread tension there through its cycle. If you have loosened the top thread tension all the way, there should be no binding at any point in the machine's cycle whatsoever. If there is, you are threaded wrong or something has broken/worn out. Since Singers last practically forever, and are almost foolproof, you are probably threading it wrong.

3. Work forward from the thread spool to find where the binding is happening. If you can fix it there, good. Once I had let the thread fall off the spool and wrap around the spool spindle. Of course, it broke at the needle, not at the spindle. IOW, start there and go forward along the thread track.

4. Competent repair shops are easy to find. If you can't solve the problem yourself, take it to an expert. Every machine needs a thorough lub job and tune up by an expert now and then, anyway.

Thanks for all the responses! To answer a couple of the responses.

Yes the machine is one of the old, black, heavy machines.

The material is uncoated 1.9oz ripstop.

I have the manual and confident the threading and needle is installed correctly (flat side to the left).

The tread is breaking at the needle.

I have only used brand new needles size 10-16

I have decent success (1-2") when I turn the wheel by hand, but it does take a considerable about of pressure.

When I pull on the thread the needle is deflected a great deal. I would be concerned about breaking the needle. The thread is in between the disks but I can not adjust the disks to be free and easy to pull the thread. I think the adjustment spring is not the correct one. I will try skipping the disks and go straight to the spring and see if that at least stops breaking the thread.

http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollect...es/image26.htm

I may be able to lengthen the shaft (N) in the link above or reduce spring pressure. I also noticed it is skipping stitches too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmudler

I have decent success (1-2") when I turn the wheel by hand, but it does take a considerable about of pressure.

When I pull on the thread the needle is deflected a great deal. I would be concerned about breaking the needle. The thread is in between the disks but I can not adjust the disks to be free and easy to pull the thread. I think the adjustment spring is not the correct one. I will try skipping the disks and go straight to the spring and see if that at least stops breaking the thread.

---

Your machine needs to be seen by a professional repairman for adjustment and oiling.

When you pull the thread through the needle, the needle MAY be deflected slightly, usually no deflection and never by a large amount as you describe. As Spock wrote, the thread is being jammed somewhere. DO NOT by-pass the tension disks.

Turning the wheel by hand should be easy and not hard unless you are forcing it through very, very heavy material.

Again, your machine needs to be seen by a professional repairman for adjustment and oiling.

Also, ask the repairman to quickly go over operation with you. They can point out a lot of hints that make operating the machine easier and better.

lift your presser foot and try to pull the thread, is it loose?
if not the tensioning mechanism is the problem.
if you loosen the tension, even with the foot down, you should be able to pull the thread with some resistance, with the foot up no resistance should be felt at all.
I second a tune-up.
did you try oiling the machine?, if not it will be included in the tune-up.

good luck, I have about the same model as you, built like a tank
with a little fine tuning it should run like a charm.
FRED

Yes I performed a full lube job with singer products. I am not trying to sound arrogant, but this is the first mechanical thing I have not been able to fix. ;) I have one last thing to check and if it doesnt work I have a repair shop who also has classes around the corner.

as long as the timing is good those machines are reasonably easy to maintain. Not sure how hard the timing is to adjust. My wife always took care of that on her older machines. She was sewing professionally and couldn't afford to be down the machine. She got real good at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmudler

Thanks for all the responses! To answer a couple of the responses.

Yes the machine is one of the old, black, heavy machines.

The material is uncoated 1.9oz ripstop.

I have the manual and confident the threading and needle is installed correctly (flat side to the left).

The tread is breaking at the needle.

I have only used brand new needles size 10-16

I have decent success (1-2") when I turn the wheel by hand, but it does take a considerable about of pressure.

When I pull on the thread the needle is deflected a great deal. I would be concerned about breaking the needle. The thread is in between the disks but I can not adjust the disks to be free and easy to pull the thread. I think the adjustment spring is not the correct one. I will try skipping the disks and go straight to the spring and see if that at least stops breaking the thread.

http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollect...es/image26.htm

I may be able to lengthen the shaft (N) in the link above or reduce spring pressure. I also noticed it is skipping stitches too.

---

It will skip stitches if the tension is not correct. This I know from experience. :(

Don't you have a tension release bar, to raise the presser foot? If you raise the presser foot it should relieve the tension on the thread between the disks. If you then pull on the thread, it should pull freely. If not, your issue is in the thread tension. From there, it is repairman time. :scared:

One more thing. Your machine should sew through 16 layers of 1.9 oz silnylon or as much fabric of any kind that will fit under the presser foot. Four layers is nothing.

Your description contains 2 separate issues - the thread and the difficulty in turning. The machine should break the thread and still turn reasonably easily - if you are using polyester thread. The difficulty turning sounds more and more like a lubrication problem either in the top unit or the bottom unit. You have to take the machine apart to get to all the lube points requiring grease rather than oil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spock

One more thing. Your machine should sew through 16 layers of 1.9 oz silnylon or as much fabric of any kind that will fit under the presser foot. Four layers is nothing.

Your description contains 2 separate issues - the thread and the difficulty in turning. The machine should break the thread and still turn reasonably easily - if you are using polyester thread. The difficulty turning sounds more and more like a lubrication problem either in the top unit or the bottom unit. You have to take the machine apart to get to all the lube points requiring grease rather than oil.

---

Without the threading the machine it turns smooth as butter. Do to family obligations I have not had a chance to touch the machine since last weekend. I will try the suggestions posted and If I am still having trouble I will take it to the repair shop.

Your issue sounds exactly like what mine was doing when I had the needle in backwards. Might be worth switching it just to see.

I broke my first needle the other day. No idea what happened. I don't think I did anything I hadn't done before. :(

I am rolling now :lol: As I suspected the shaft holding the tension mechanism needed to be lengthened. It was all the way in and no matter what I tried it had too much top tension.

I also found another issue. I was sewing over the straight pins. I read somewhere it was OK and however it was causing a few issues for me.

What type of problems are you having sewing over the pins? That's how I was taught and I haven't had any issues.

If the pins run across the seamline there should be minimal problems. Possibly a bump now and then. The closer the pins get to in=line with the seam the more problematic it becomes.

Right. They need to be perpendicular to the seam.

Yes I was installing the pins across the seam. I actually struck them and the needle deflected enough to skip a stitch when it did.

Hitting pins:
Sometimes a ballpoint needle will catch on some brands of pins. Don't know why and haven't put them under the microscope for a better look.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spock

Hitting pins:
Sometimes a ballpoint needle will catch on some brands of pins. Don't know why and haven't put them under the microscope for a better look.

---

My guess would be the ball point needles have a bigger surface area at the point than the sharps. The sharps would push the pin aside unless you whack it dead center at high speed. The ball points are made for knits. They are used to push through the fiber instead of weakening it by piercing and possibly cutting the fiber. I would not use a ball point needle unless I was using a knit. I especially would not use one on silnylon because it would be more apt to push the fabric into the throat plate and leave a bigger whole than a sharp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spock

Hitting pins:
Sometimes a ballpoint needle will catch on some brands of pins. Don't know why and haven't put them under the microscope for a better look.

---

I read that when that happens, it could actually knock your sewing machine out of time.

do not fear the bobbin tension.....I use a Sailrite LS1 sail making machine designed for sails and upholstery...it also sews normal every day materials, but changing from heavy upholstery thread to a normal polyester thread requires an adjustment to the bobbin tension. took a little experimentation to go from sewing 6 layers of heavy dacron sailcloth to sil nylon before i figured it out, going back to the sailcloth was easier, just turned the tension screw BACK the same number of turns...