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OK, now that the weather is warm, I'll post this. Because I had all of this written up back in March but for some reason never got it posted. I stumbled onto the saved file and thought I had better do so. This is based on some PMs I had with CryOfTheWild. He gave me permission back then to quote him, and so I will.
This was his original reply to me:
OK, that should get us started, more to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by CryOTheWild
From my original write up:
We have another cold weather warrior among us. CryOfTheWild from Wisconsin. Definitely colder there than northern MS. I have been PM'ing with him about his winter trips. He has been doing some probably record setting zero to minus 20(minus 35 windchill) hangs this last winter. In a HH SuperShelter(HHSS). But it is not the temps that are record setting. It is not even the use of an HHSS and not only surviving but being quite warm enough. Most of us know of kwpapke's minus 27 epic with Shug a few years back. That was about the coldest hang we knew about for quite a while( except maybe Turk). And while Shug stayed warm in downy goodness, Kwpapke got er done in a heavily augmented (using much of what he would have with him anyway) HHSS, which was mind blowing at the time.
So where is the (probable) record, you ask? Excellent question! Kwpapke's experiment was to see how far he could push a stock HHSS by augmenting it with other insulation. I think he had a thin Exped pad in the UC, with a summer weight down bag and a down parka stuffed down under the space blanket/OCF pad and in the under cover(UC). Plus he had many layers on top. His whole deal was to use what he had and see how far he could push the SS, in which he succeeded. He was warm enough top and bottom, but struggled with all the layers on top and was wishing for a warmer bag rather than all those layers.
COTW, on the other hand, did this with a stock HHSS for bottom insulation. Just one HH OCF pad/space blanket and UC. He did have a TR sit pad that he used either as a pillow or for cold spots/cold butt as needed. Though I am not clear on how much he actually used it, and apparently did not use it on the 1st hang quoted in previous post. Maybe he will probably chime in with more details later.
And non-compressing clothing layers or sleeping bags do not appear to be a significant factor, as he only reported 2 layers of long johns and the normal list of clothing for this kind of cold: Balaclava, bomber hat I think, etc. ( down parka? Not sure). So I'm thinking that has to be a record right there, for a HHSS, even though I was assuming he MUST be inside a zero or lower rated synthetic sleeping bag.
But no, are you ready for this? His bag was a 15F down Marmot Pinnacle. I don't know if he was inside it or quilt style, but he wasn't picking up any significant extra back warmth from that.
So can you believe this? I mean, I believe him, but I am astounded! This man ( more of a human furnace than Neo or Cannibal? ) has been hanging warmly at well below zero temps with the basic HHSS, with stock tarp sometimes. There were two Canadians a few years back that reported something like minus 13 with the base HHSS ( Toddkmiller ?) And that blew me away at the time. But we have now jumped to – 20 with -35 windchill. With no big tarp to block the wind, a stock diamond tarp on that windy night if I have the details straight. I'm sure it was the UC that saved him from those wind chills. That is a significant step lower.
I'm sure I could never approach this. If I am OK in the high 20s with the base SS, I am proud of myself! Truthfully, about plus 30F is the most I have pushed the single pad all by itself. And I felt I was at the limit, and at colder temps than that I always put something else below the pad. But, I was still a noob in those days, and I'm not sure how much that was limited by top warmth, as I struggled against drafts trying my bag as a quilt. So maybe I could get it a bit lower. And I have been toasty at ~ 14 ( I think wind chill- no tarp- was about +6) by adding a down vest and fleece jacket, But – 35 wind chill with just the one pad and diamond tarp? And maybe/maybe not some augmentation with a TR sit pad? Wow!
There was another fellow posted here briefly a while back, in a thread on HHSSs. I don't think it was COTW, but I don't know who it was. He also had taken his base HHSS to below zero, but he really through a wrench in the works by saying he used his space blanket BELOW his pad! With that thought, I am going to just quote from COTW's last PM to me(really some things to think about):
CryOfTheWild:Wow again, space blanket below the OCF pad. Although, on top or below the pad, this immediately makes me think of the benefits of VB clothing along with frost bibs hanging from a RL, especially related to the comments about ice in his down. Although, most of that probably came from his body.Quote:
“Also I would like to add that I have not really used the over cover since my first winter hang at those super cold temps, I tried using it one night this past January but had so much condensation it was snowing on me when I woke up. I have also done some experimenting with the space blanket vapor barrier and decided that it does not make a significant enough difference to really be necessary especially for a longer trip. if it in above the ocf pad it traps all moisture which freezes to it and then gets re absorbed when you crawl back in at night into the fabrics of the hammock and sleeping bag. If anything the space blanket seems to do best under the pad that way you still get all the trapped air insulation and the moister that radiates out from below you condenses into the pad instead of the hammock and sleeping bag. Then in the morning the pad can just be shaken and all the ice will just fall off. I started hanging the pad, sleeping bag, and space blanket on the ridge line to dry on sunny days as the space blanket radiates the suns energy towards the other things helping them dry as well even below freezing temps. I did notice after a week in the 10 to -20 weather that I had chunks of ice within the feather of my down bag most likely from condensation formed during sleeping
send me a link to the new thread your starting when you get it going. ”
So, there you have it. I'm not sure who among us has managed to use so little to so low of a temp, and apparently was warm enough. And though I know the HHSS has proven a poor performer for some folks, it clearly works spectacularly well for some- better than I could ever imagine it would even though I am a fan.
Not that I am recommending anyone here try minus 35 wind chill with a stock HHSS and tarp. I certainly won't without significant augmentation. But it does make me wonder if I never pushed my base HHSS to it's true limits. I just never had the courage to push it below 30 without automatically adding stuff below. But COTW has beat me ( with the basic HHSS) by about 50*.
But, BTW, looking at my quotes from months back: I guess he did mean minus 20F? And not minus 20C? ( though even minus 20C would still be impressive for a basic HHSS)
This is really neat, thank you for all the kind words. I would like to mention that I did not have a down Parka (don't own one) on those nights. I am graduating college in 1 week and have just not had money to spend on high end gear or down insulation. My Marmot Pinnacle 15 degree down bag was the only down I own. I bought a down vest in March from a HF member which I took with me to the Olympic National Park 2 months ago for my 10 day solo trip and very happy with it. I will definitely have it with me next winter but as of right now I still do not see myself purchasing a TQ or UQ in the near future. So far this year I have 49 nights in the hammock since January. Not even my final semester of school could slow me down :) I am shooting for 150 nights in the woods this year to beat last years 102 nights.
I have strongly been considering going back to the HHSS for Winter Setup..
Its lighter.. Not lighter than my summer quilts but..
Gary, have you ever used your HHSS in winter conditions? If so, it must have worked at least fairly well for you? If you are considering using it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_R
You are welcome, Nick! I just thought your (most likely) record setting for base/stock HHSS use merited mentioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by CryOTheWild
Very interesting how moisture froze to the space blanket when you had it on top of the OCF pad. I would expect that SB to be held close enough to your body to keep it warm and thus have no condensation, but apparently not. Of course, condensation or not sweat is always a possibility, though seems way unlikely at those temps and what you were wearing, which really wasn't all that much.
Even more interesting that with the SB UNDER the pad, you got ice in the OCF pad but apparently still stayed warm?
Also interesting is the chunks of ice in your down sleeping bag.
For all those icy situations, have you considered Vapor Barrier clothing for those below zero temps? Not that you seem to need anything else, amazingly. But, it doesn't cost much and would keep OCF pad and down bag drier.
So you apparently didn't feel the space blanket made the OCF pad feel warmer? Did it seem to add to warmth underneath the OCF pad?
Oh, BTW, these temps were Fahrenheit?
Oh, I meant to also post this PM from Nick, but forgot:
So, " a single mummy bag, the Marmot Pinnacle. This bag is rated to 15 degrees with an emergency rating of -26 and has 850 fill goose down."Quote:
Hi Bill,
First I must say that I am a warm sleeper which from watching others seems to play a huge factor. Also there are rules to what kinds of foods and when to eat in relationship to going to bed in the winter time which help a lot. As for the sleeping bag, I use a single mummy bag, the Marmot Pinnacle. This bag is rated to 15 degrees with an emergency rating of -26 and has 850 fill goose down. This past February before my ice climbing trip at the Michigan Ice Fest I also purchased a pair of REI down filled booties but they did not make a significant difference in warmth for me to recommend them. REI booties have 450 fill duck down and are not vary compressible due to the sole built in. When I sleep I usually have 2 pair wool socks, one top and bottom marino wool long underwear, one set poly long underwear again top and bottom, fleece pj's from wallmart, fleece sweetshirt, balaclava over my mouth and nose, and a rabbit fur hat with ear flaps down. I also throw my boot liners in my bag with me to dry, any damp cloths like maybe the lower half of my zip off pants, and a pair of gloves or mittens in case i get really cold. I also have a no longer inflatable thermarest sit pad that I started using this year as a pillow/foot pad/butt pad if need be. Between all my layers and the mummy bag I stay plenty warm. Shug has a video where he shows his thermometer at -26 and I cannot say I have a photo to beet that record and many folks do not count wind chill factors because when you get into the hammock you are sheltered from the wind but I can say that when you are out for more than a single night and especially solo wind chill is a huge deal because you are stuck out in the elements many more hours than you are in the hammock. Name is Nick by the way and have been happily hanging since the fall of 2010. On a 6 day canoe backpacking trip with UW-Milwaukee students in a n outdoor adventure class we got caught in a huge storm the first night and a tree branch blew in an tore my tent door and everything inside flooded. I spent the first night sitting under a tarp by the fire but the second day I hung my ground cloth like a rain fly and bundled the edges of my tent and hung it from 2 trees so my butt was still supported by the ground. it was a makeshift hammock for 5 nights but when I got home I got my first HH :boggle: and have been hangin' ever since. Hope thsi answers some questions, feel free to share info or reference. I love geeking out about camping and at the moment my life seems to be revolving around it.
Take care,
Nick
and "When I sleep I usually have 2 pair wool socks, one top and bottom marino wool long underwear, one set poly long underwear again top and bottom, fleece pj's from wallmart, fleece sweetshirt, balaclava over my mouth and nose, and a rabbit fur hat with ear flaps down."
plus the HHSS with one pad @ bout 20 oz (and SB?) for minus 20, plus plenty of windchill. Not too shabby.
Yes temps are Fahrenheit and when I went ice climbing this past February at Michigan's Ice Fest in Munising I didn't even use the space blanket. I decided that sometimes depending on moisture in the air, it is better to just not use it. Especially for a longer trip as the moisture leaving your body stays wet in anything between you and the space blanket while you are sleeping and then freezes when you leave the hammock. After a few days the moisture/ice builds up. I didn't notice the ice in the down inside my sleeping bag until after 4 or 5 days at continuous freezing temps.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBob58
As for vapor barrier clothing I would never recommend it in cold temperatures unless you were in a cold desert. The moisture leaving your body as you hike or rest is just that, moisture. I think this is what many people get mislead or confused by. A vapor is something in a gas form, air for example. It is a good idea to keep the wind off of you when you sleep but the real problem is the moisture in that air. Like moisture on your body, cold air can suck the heat from you much more quickly than dry air. Since our skin is designed to breath it will do so weather we like it or not. The key is to keep the moisture off of your body by using moisture wicking or breathable fabrics such as GoreTex.
What all of this means is...
When I stopped using my space blanket in conjunction with my ocf pad I no longer had moisture building up in the pad or sleeping bag at all. Instead I slightly altered the layering method of my cloths to compensate.
I've been to about freezing without any concerns. I'm sure I could get into the teens at least. If i'm getting down into the teens I will probably be snow camping and have my pulk, at which point weight is not longer an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBob58
On a side note.. I have never had any condensation issues what so ever in my hammock