Toggle failure

We went for a short hike around Kennesaw Mountain Battlefield, GA, had lunch and hung the hammock for a short rest.

The hammock is a ENO double with whoopie slings, tree straps, and carbon fiber arrow shaft pieces as toggles. I hung the hammock between two tree wider than I normally hang, but within the overall length. For some reason, I put a overhand knot in the webbing over the whoopie sling. Thank goodness.

I gently reclined and then laid back. I was there probably 3-5 minutes when, POP and the hammock dropped a bit. I thought maybe the webbing slide. When I checked it, the arrow shaft toggle was missing. It had busted and was completely missing. I only found one half. The picture is blurry, but included. I have hung from these toggles a few nights before and did not have a problem.

I think that I put too much force on the toggles by decreasing the angle in order to cross the span.

Cutter

Interesting find, glad it wasn't night one of a weeks trek.

I've just got some broken ally shafts to make some toggles, hope they hold out

Cutter, did you make sure to have the loop on the knot, and not the toggle?

I've always questioned using carbon shaft for a toggle. They are made to be strong along the length, not the width.

LR,
it may had fallen down, but it was definitely over the knot. The carbon "appears" stronger than the alum. but who knows. I will keep testing it out.

cutter

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Originally Posted by Lonely Raven

Cutter, did you make sure to have the loop on the knot, and not the toggle?

I've always questioned using carbon shaft for a toggle. They are made to be strong along the length, not the width.

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that is hitting the nail on the head, the same with bridge hammocks the spreader bars are strong length wise but they will bend if you put too much weight on them when sitting up on them, also make sure the whoopie sling is not on the toggle but on the knot,, very important.
But either way good thing you put a safety knot in the sling.

I have had carbon arrow shaft toggles crack in the middle. They never broke completely through but they were broken. I have stopped using them. I have gone back to tent pole pieces. These are much thicker and have not had any noticeable damage after many uses.

Quote from this thread http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=15715

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I did have one problem with a new marlin spike setup. I was using some carbon arrow shafts for the spike. I had a failure with these. I had a couple biners that I used after this. 2sticks setup had aluminum arrow shafts that worked fine.

http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/p...pictureid=2629

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The carbon fiber was not strong enough for the compression of the small cord when I used the amsteel to form the marlin hitch. The same thing could have happened with the webbing if it bunched up in a rope shape.

If you used as a toggle instead of the spike for the marlin hitch it would break for sure.

If you use carbon fiber shafts for the spike in a marlin spike hitch the bolts for a crossbow are thicker and would provide some insurance.

Bottom line when using the carbon fiber shafts is to make sure the entire width of the webbing is being used to tighten down on the carbon fiber shaft used for the spike.

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

cutter

I agree with carbon being "strong along the length, not the width." I cycle a lot and was talking to a bike shop guy who was also a quant with lots of degrees and important initials behind his name and he mentioned how carbon fiber forks absorb shock because they're absorbing it directly up the length. I just found an old tent (gasp) that I haven't used in years and low and behold it came with ally poles. The pipe-cutter has been getting some overtime use and I've already made 6 toggles. I hung my full-weighted pack from them using a marlin spike hitch on my webbing and also did a couple of dynamic tests in dropping my bag from about 8 feet. They held with no issues. Gotta love this forum for all the input. Thanks everyone.

I have about a dozen carbon tubes (cut arrow shafts), perfect for toggles if you guys want replacements! :)

LR, thanks but I have some too. Guess I am switching now.

cutter

I guess I have always been leary of hollow shafts. They can be bent, crimped or compressed form one point to inhibit failure. For that reason, I made my shafts out of solid wood, shown here. These are wooden pen blanks turned down to 1/2". These are purpleheart and paduak. I also have some made of kingwood, cocobolo and bocote. All these were chosen for their appearance, but also for their long grain and breaking strength. I always carry one spare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cutter

We went for a short hike around Kennesaw Mountain Battlefield, GA, had lunch and hung the hammock for a short rest.

The hammock is a ENO double with whoopie slings, tree straps, and carbon fiber arrow shaft pieces as toggles. I hung the hammock between two tree wider than I normally hang, but within the overall length. For some reason, I put a overhand knot in the webbing over the whoopie sling. Thank goodness.

I gently reclined and then laid back. I was there probably 3-5 minutes when, POP and the hammock dropped a bit. I thought maybe the webbing slide. When I checked it, the arrow shaft toggle was missing. It had busted and was completely missing. I only found one half. The picture is blurry, but included. I have hung from these toggles a few nights before and did not have a problem.

I think that I put too much force on the toggles by decreasing the angle in order to cross the span.

Cutter

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I have had the same problem. I also get frustrated when my toggle turns when adjusting it. I never quite trust them and I have to check them every time i get in my hammock. I have since moved away from the Marlin spike hitch and that is why i make Dutch biners. It is actually a lighter set up, but what I really like is i have the security and convenience of a biner with the adjust-ability of the whoopie. Rather than a shameless plug I will send you a pair with some continuous loops for free. Just pm me your address.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cutter

LR,
it may had fallen down, but it was definitely over the knot. The carbon "appears" stronger than the alum. but who knows. I will keep testing it out.

cutter

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Carbon fiber may have relative high "strength" to weight ratio, but lacks modular resiliency when compared to many substance. Impact damage or cut fibers may not be visible. At least until catastrophic failure results. I've witnessed numerous nordic ski poles snapping. Twice have experienced two high content (+90%) carbon fiber windsurf masts snap while sailing.

You guys have convinced me to go a different route.

Dutch: pm sent. A huge thanks.

Cutter

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Originally Posted by Dutch

I have since moved away from the Marlin spike hitch and that is why i make Dutch biners. It is actually a lighter set up...

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I must confess to being less than knowledgeable about Dutch biners (although I love my Dutch clips!!!); but how do you rig your suspension such that its less overall weight than the almost weightless Marlin Spike?

I'm using carbon arrow shafts right now and although I haven't had any failures yet; you guys have certainly gotten my attention.

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Originally Posted by BurningCedar

I must confess to being less than knowledgeable about Dutch biners (although I love my Dutch clips!!!); but how do you rig your suspension such that its less overall weight than the almost weightless Marlin Spike?

I'm using carbon arrow shafts right now and although I haven't had any failures yet; you guys have certainly gotten my attention.

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Well the Dutch Biner is only a little over 9 grams each. If you use a marlin spike hitch, most people usually carry around a 6 to 8 foot piece of webbing. but you would need at least a 5 foot piece. With the Dutch Biner you only need a 3 foot hugger for most trees (I carry one 3' and one 4'). So you are trading off 1 to 3 foot of webbing to a 9 gram Dutch biner and an amsteel loop. Now if the hugger is too short I can use the whoopie to make up the difference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrYQMW9SHikWith the MSH you definitely need a piece of webbing that is bigger than the largest tree you will hang from. You will not be saving a lot of weight as there isn't much to cut out, but I can make it lighter and have the safety and convenience of a biner. Plus I have the water break and a I can remove my wet suspension for packing.

Thanks Dutch for the explanation and the YouTube link. Now that I've looked at it a bit more closely, it makes much more sense to me.

Of course that means I'm going to have to invest in yet another suspension system; but heck -- that's one reason this hammocking stuff is so fun :laugh:

I tried CF shaft with tree huggers and whoopie slings.... Hmmmm not the most comforting sound as the shafts creaked and groaned under the load, swapped out to 2 1/2" x 1/4" dia solid alum rod.... very light and super strong.... Now if I can just figure a way to keep them attached to the tree huggers I'll be all set....

No failures here yet (And I routinely swing in my hammock) but just like CF flyrods, there are different wall thickness for the "Weight " of the rod. So you can't make a blanket statement about CF toggles w/o considering this variable. Certainly wouldn't use them for greater than 2 ft off ground. Before climbing in I make sure the Whoopie is "set" in the knot area. I made my first toggles out of Al arrowshafts w/o failures also. Al prob is the best wt vs possib failure ratio IMHO.

I also use toggles made from arrow shafts but mine are a combination of CF and aluminum. From what i can see its like an aluminum tube wrapped in CF. I would think that they reinforce and so far they have worked very well for me and i am a bit on the heavy side.

This is why we have not gone the CF route. Ours our made from aluminum arrow shafts and nobody has reported a failure to date. My own personal toggles were made quite some time ago from a section of an Easton tent peg and they are still going strong.