How about a modular UQ?

Y'know, bein' a newbie to hammocks, UQ's look kinda half-baked. The full UQ's make sense to me, but the partial ones look like trouble-- sliding around, air gaps, not quite enough, or too much. $200 and your feet are still cold? What is THAT all about?

Seems to me that a full UQ body with modular pods, pockets or layers would be cool-- hopefully WARM. I want something that will zip, snap, or Velcro onto my hammock, stay put, and be easlily stowed for travel. All the fiddling with shock cords and mitten hooks and other gizmos is weak. I want to select for a variety of temperature ranges and weather, just like I do with a sleeping bag. C'mon guys, this is the 21st Century!

IMHO, anybody that manufactures a hammock for use in temperate and colder climates without a fitted and coordinated bottom insulation system is only making half a product. It's like selling a car that no one makes fuel for--- looks nice, but you aren't going anywhere with it.:mad:

{end rant}

Actually, the "detached" UQ, hammock and top quilts, not to mention hammock socks, do constitute a modular system. You pick your hammock with or without a bugnet depending on the bite count. Pick your tarp, big one if it's the rainy season, small one if it's not. Depending on the temperature, select from your vast quiver of UQ's and TQ's. And if camping in Minnesota wintertime, the hammock sock.

You go prepared for the conditions at hand without lugging any extra weight that you don't need.

Now I will admit that when I first discovered hammock forums and hammocks that the idea of "half a quilt" under me seemed, well, half cocked! However, I soon learned to trust in the wisdom of these good folks here and went of half cocked myself. To my surprise, I've never had a problem with the partial underquilt concept and love the fact that it saves weight (and money too as I make my own).

Of course, there are many that do prefer a full underquilt. But, I think the majority of backpackers are partial to the partial quilts (I just couldn't resist).

You make some good points, but I think you're not the first person to think about the UQ riddle the same way. I'd point out that I can select for temp, too, it just requires a little fiddlin' -- pull the UQ up or down to vent or not. Seems like there was a guy who experimented with attaching the quilt to the underside. And I'm just guessing that if it worked, it'd be in production. I think you'd run into compression of the UQ because the hammock material would stretch into it. But, hey, that's why we have this forum - all ideas welcomed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaleW

Y'know, bein' a newbie to hammocks, UQ's look kinda half-baked. The full UQ's make sense to me, but the partial ones look like trouble-- sliding around, air gaps, not quite enough, or too much. $200 and your feet are still cold? What is THAT all about?

Seems to me that a full UQ body with modular pods, pockets or layers would be cool-- hopefully WARM. I want something that will zip, snap, or Velcro onto my hammock, stay put, and be easlily stowed for travel. All the fiddling with shock cords and mitten hooks and other gizmos is weak. I want to select for a variety of temperature ranges and weather, just like I do with a sleeping bag. C'mon guys, this is the 21st Century!

IMHO, anybody that manufactures a hammock for use in temperate and colder climates without a fitted and coordinated bottom insulation system is only making half a product. It's like selling a car that no one makes fuel for--- looks nice, but you aren't going anywhere with it.:mad:

{end rant}

---

Most of the UQ's out there today be they fractional or full are modular to an extent. Zippers and velcro were tried in the past on other products with only the Speer Snugfit (now discontinued) having much success. The reason that most now use shockcord IS to make it simpler to attach as well as making them adjustable for different desired configurations.

An example of their flexibility is the shock-cord suspension. Most 3 season UQ's are good down to the 20-30 F range. They reach their limits by being snugly attached with minimal airgaps. Take that same 3 season UQ to 55 F, and it can adjusted by allowing a looser fit or air gaps. If you took away the shock-cord and rigidly attached the UQ, it would be like a 3 season sleeping bag with no zipper (too hot or too cold but rarely just right).

The shock-cord suspension also allow for hanging a UQ for different hammocks and preferences. On a regular gathered end hammock, one user might like to sleep in the center while others prefer a diagonal lay from the left or right. An adjustable suspension affords one either option without being stuck with just one.

As far as simple goes, once an UQ has been dialed in to your preference, they normally just takes seconds to install. As far as easily packing goes, disconnecting an UQ and putting it in a stuff sack is about as easy as it gets without having your Sherpa do it for you.

As far as full versus fractional, that's just a matter of personal choice. Fractionals are smaller, less bulky and lighter while affording a wider variety of angle for you versus your feet. Full UQ's eliminate the need for 2 ounces of pad under our feet and have fewer drafts.


Compare hooking a couple of mitten hooks to the ends of your hammock to lining up two zippers or two pieces of velcro, and you'll probably find those mitten hooks are much simpler and faster to deal with while possessing fewer points of failure and less weight.

Good post, MAKE YOUR OWN!!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stairguy

Good post, MAKE YOUR OWN....

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Indeed. It seems I have no other choice!

I've read lots of posts like, "it shifted off to one side at 3AM," or, "I use a pad for my feet," or "I had to fiddle with it to..."

Doesn't it make sense that if you drop a couple-three hunski on a hammock, it shouldn't be a search for something so primary to the use of the product as keeping warm in temps below 70F?

Think how well the topside is covered with well integrated insect sceens and tarps.

The current crop of UQ's may be of excellent quality, but they are tacked on and not what I would call modular design. Imagine getting a nice digital SLR and ordering up a lens that might fit, and it might work in the conditions you have in mind, and it is held on with bungee cords. Please.

And the idea that you can use a standard 20" hiking pad is laughable. They are uncomfortable and don't give effective coverage.

Here's what is needed:

*Take any production hammock and add a mounting system-- zippers, snaps, Velcro-- anything that will hold the UQ in place accurately, firmly, and with a good air seal.

*There should be provisions for venting if the UQ is too warm.

*The UQ should be water resistant but breathable.

*The UQ should be compressible for easy transport.

*The UQ should take advantage of lightweight fabrics, fillers and ultralight design principles

*Both down and synthetic fillers should be offered.

*There should be a selection of UQ's that can work alone or together to cover a range of temperatures: summer, 3-season, 4-season.

For example, Velcro fastenings would be forgiving for 3rd parties to make accessories, it adjusts easily for fit, and allows stacking layers/modules.

So we have a Hennessy or a Warbonnet with some Velcro down the sides. A simple fabric cover could be offered with insulation pads to fit inside. A thinner synthetic or down UQ could made to the pattern for warmer weather and basic use. It would be simple to have modules to fit the foot area, or add insulation to one area or another. If you have a partial UQ, other modules could be made to fill in the areas it doesn't cover. And a complete UQ could be offered that will work in tandem with the partial one.

If you want something more universal, make a universal under cover that will accept a coordinated system of modules. The under cover would just be an adapter.



But no guessing if it will fit, no lowest-common-denominator fit or make-do fastening system, just a well designed, well made, COORDINATED system of insulation.

My $1.26 :D

If you DIY'd an under quilt that loft to an inch or so . . .
and velcro'd it on . . .
that would work for cool temps . . .
but then for when it got colder, if you had a second one at an inch or so loft
and you velcro'd it under the first one . . . :D

Then for super sub zero you could have a third UQ to stick on . . .

now you have it figured for almost any temp.

You just set me to thinkin' :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradley

If you DIY'd an under quilt that loft to an inch or so . . .
and velcro'd it on . . .
that would work for cool temps . . .
but then for when it got colder, if you had a second one at an inch or so loft
and you velcro'd it under the first one . . . :D

Then for super sub zero you could have a third UQ to stick on . . .

now you have it figured for almost any temp.

You just set me to thinkin' :laugh:

---

That's the idea. You have to accommodate the extra loft, so maybe the fatter ones would go on the outside.

Maybe the summer one could have asym insulation-- just a layer of Thinsulate on the diagonal with a thin windproof cover that goes end to end-- a double bottom in reality. Maybe the next stage would be fillers for the empty ends of the summer cover like a Clark. Then a fat center section for colder stuff, and a full cover over that to keep Shug warm at -26F (I would go home). Or just a lofty full cover. Once you have a consistent way to fasten it all, the possibilities are endless. If someone comes up with some new high tech insulation or fabric, it's no problem to retrofit. But it doesn't have to look like the clothesline exploded or weigh 6 tons.

actually posted something similar bout a top quilt modullar system using the usgi MSS thats a three layer system rated down to -30 but its synthetic so its a brick but it should work with the two sleep bags and goretex bivvy

Carry a 1 season/summer weight quilt for warmest temps.
Carry a three season quilt for mid temps.
Stack the two together for winter/coldest temps.
Thats been an answer for many.

The most forgiving, modular suspension is the shockcord.. It allows for the quilt to shift and flow with the hammock fabric while the occupant moves inside the hammock. It also allows for the greatest range of adjustment, i.e., loosening for venting, or sliding along the hammock length for different body sizes or positions.
Any velcro, snap or zipper will add weight.
Any solid attachment to the hammock will limit versatility. Many attempts have been tried in the history of hammocks, and the shockcord has won out. Thats why so many (read all) manufacturers use a s.c. suspension.

Mac sells additional layers for the IX uq. Each insert has matching loops so it can be stacked to follow to main uq.

Experiment with your concept, it has merit.
But, I think you'll notice that a completely attached uq will need to be a lot bigger/bulkier than a free floating/adjustable quilt to provide a similar seal and coverage and warmth. Or, its attached size will limit the hangers positioning in the hammock. If I need to switch sides during the night, I simply reach down and adjust the quilt to follow my body.

A s.c. quilt allows it to be transfered from one hammock to another relatively easily. Yes, there is a slight fiddle factor of possibly adjusting the s.c. to fit the other hammock. But once it is adjusted, it allows the same free floating capabilities. An attached quilt will need all hammocks to have the same matching attachment points, be it velcro or snaps, etc. That will limit its popularity.

Most 4-season quilts need extra support due to the added weight of extra down or synthetic. Weight is a penalty a winter camper has to accept.
Having a quilt that can support the extra weight will need thicker s.c., or have auxilary tie point to support the quilt off the ridgeline.
Making a main quilt that is adaptable will need to have the same extra support, which will mean when you only need the main warm weather quilt, you still carry the heavier s.c. full-time.

Sliding a windscreen into the gap between the quilt and hammock is a simple solution to boosting the warmth, yet limits breathability.

Modularity already exists. Its what you want to carry. Most folks carry a sit pad and use it to add warmth the quilt.

The peapod was an all covering, no fiddle form of downy goodness, yet its overall size and bulk made it less popular for backpacking. Cost of down is another factor. So folks evolved and shrunk the size of the uq, to make do for the pack space/weight needs. A smaller quilt also had less down so that reduced pricing (some). Down is pricey and the process of manufacture is detailed and tedious, so the prices charged reflect that. But down is king as far as compactness and warmth.

I have a self-modded climashield underquilt that is full coverage and has taken me to 8* comfortably. Yet its sheer size and bulk are unneccessary for warmer temps, yet if needed I can still loosen the s.c. to maintain comfort on warmer nights.

Forgot to add the Jacks have a quilt with an add-on section.
The MW3 Convertible.
http://www.jacksrbetter.com/Mt%20Was...MW3Convertible

@DaleW

I've read lots of posts like, "it shifted off to one side at 3AM," or, "I use a pad for my feet," or "I had to fiddle with it to..."

Many people have to adjust the covers while sleeping in a hotel as well.

Doesn't it make sense that if you drop a couple-three hunski on a hammock, it shouldn't be a search for something so primary to the use of the product as keeping warm in temps below 70F?

The hammocks without integrated insulation tend to range from 20-200 bucks.



Think how well the topside is covered with well integrated insect sceens and tarps.

The tarps normally are not integrated and that still does not provide any insulation, nor does a tent.

The current crop of UQ's may be of excellent quality, but they are tacked on and not what I would call modular design. Imagine getting a nice digital SLR and ordering up a lens that might fit, and it might work in the conditions you have in mind, and it is held on with bungee cords. Please.

Imagine having a Canon DSLR and not being able to use a Nikor lense. In essence, a proprietary attachment system would accomplish just that.


And the idea that you can use a standard 20" hiking pad is laughable. They are uncomfortable and don't give effective coverage.

Pads go up to 40" wide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaleW

Here's what is needed:

*Take any production hammock and add a mounting system-- zippers, snaps, Velcro-- anything that will hold the UQ in place accurately, firmly, and with a good air seal.

*There should be provisions for venting if the UQ is too warm.

*The UQ should be water resistant but breathable.

*The UQ should be compressible for easy transport.

*The UQ should take advantage of lightweight fabrics, fillers and ultralight design principles

*Both down and synthetic fillers should be offered.

*There should be a selection of UQ's that can work alone or together to cover a range of temperatures: summer, 3-season, 4-season.

For example, Velcro fastenings would be forgiving for 3rd parties to make accessories, it adjusts easily for fit, and allows stacking layers/modules.

So we have a Hennessy or a Warbonnet with some Velcro down the sides. A simple fabric cover could be offered with insulation pads to fit inside. A thinner synthetic or down UQ could made to the pattern for warmer weather and basic use. It would be simple to have modules to fit the foot area, or add insulation to one area or another. If you have a partial UQ, other modules could be made to fill in the areas it doesn't cover. And a complete UQ could be offered that will work in tandem with the partial one.

If you want something more universal, make a universal under cover that will accept a coordinated system of modules. The under cover would just be an adapter.



But no guessing if it will fit, no lowest-common-denominator fit or make-do fastening system, just a well designed, well made, COORDINATED system of insulation.

My $1.26 :D

---

As was mentioned in an earlier post, a fixed zipper or velcro attachment results in the compression of the insulation. They also add weight, bulk and points of failure.

A single option for attaching would also result in only one width of UQ fitting. At present, UQ's range anywhere from 38"- 48" in width affording the users choice in how much coverage they want in relation to how much weight and bulk they are willing to carry.

As far as the rest (compressible, water resistant, breathable, lightweight, ventable), the current ones already do that. Adding zippers or velcro to both the hammock and the UQ would result in less compressibility and more weight without really offering anything more than can be managed with a shock-cord. The current shock-cord solutions are also stackable ( more than one can be used at a time).

If you want everything integrated and requiring less thoughtful adjusting,
you might want to look at the Bear Mountain Bridge hammock or a Clarke.

The BMB has a 26" sleeve to insert pad(s) and their line of flat quilts will fit without much adjustment. They have quilts for all seasons, and they are stackable.

The Clarke's have pockets for insulation that can be filled (or not) to achieve more insulation. Albeit with a significant weight penalty.

i'm working on something (with a mad scientist) for my set-up, currently, that may be "the bomb" or "a bomb". i'll be posting later this fall. (it's too hot right now to think about trying to defeat the cold):D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gargoyle

Forgot to add the Jacks have a quilt with an add-on section.
The MW3 Convertible.
http://www.jacksrbetter.com/Mt%20Was...MW3Convertible

---

Definitely on the path to what I had in mind.

I don't see how adding Velcro at the "belt line" would add much weight. Granted, it isn't zero, but you only need to hang the insulation.

But that is still just tacking stuff on the outside. You see, the problem is that we think we're going to use the bare hammock, but we never will unless it is hot. I rarely camp or hike where the nighttime temps are over 70F. And that is the rub-- I will ALWAYS be using some sort of insulation on the bottom, so it should be an integral part of the hammock rather than an add-on.

Just build a double layer hammock that carries the weight and stress on the outer layer with a loose outer layer and make a selection of inserts. We're talking the same kind of technology as a differential cut on an under quilt. That outer layer is wind and water resistance, and enough strength to hold up the insulating material inside. You can still locate the insulation where you want and full options for partial or full length and a long (3' or so) light zipper on one side for access. Add some Velcro tabs inside to hold the insulation in place and up the sides. Make the outer layer really loose, with cross-wise channels sewn in for drawstrings and they could be adjusted to suit the loft of the inserts. Light shock cord and toggles would do it. Then it can all move and be adjusted to suit the user, but stowing is simply rolling it up or stuffing into a Black Bishop bag.

Adding the bottom layer, zipper and Velcro would add about 10-12 ounces--- think about the weight of a light hammock like a Nano 7, plus the hardware. You could use the very light uncoated ripstop nylon with a good DWR coating. No rocket science needed!

Synthetic inserts could be made without extra outer coverings, or super light stuff like mesh-- just enough to hold it together. The rest is provided by the hammock layers. Down inserts could be made with the lightest downproof materials and adding a vapor barrier above would be nor more complex than adding a space blanket over the down insert.

I guarantee that once a design like that is put in production, there would be a wealth of third party cottage manufacturers offering all kinds of inserts and DIY would be easy. It could be upgraded as insulation technology changes.

The hammock design itself could be any of the methods on the market now-- simple gathered-end, asym or extended foot box. Retro-fitting sewn on under covers could be a new cottage industry. Hear me 2qzq? :)

The topside would be conventional integrated bug screens, weather covers and tarps-- no revolution there at all. I would want a permanent zippered bug screen that can be tossed to one side and a structural ridge line.

My $3.96

It works....been doing it for a while in winter with my Winter Yeti and my DIY Frankenquilt.
Shug

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery..._uq_system.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaleW

Y'know, bein' a newbie to hammocks, UQ's look kinda half-baked. The full UQ's make sense to me, but the partial ones look like trouble-- sliding around, air gaps, not quite enough, or too much. $200 and your feet are still cold? What is THAT all about?

Seems to me that a full UQ body with modular pods, pockets or layers would be cool-- hopefully WARM. I want something that will zip, snap, or Velcro onto my hammock, stay put, and be easlily stowed for travel. All the fiddling with shock cords and mitten hooks and other gizmos is weak. I want to select for a variety of temperature ranges and weather, just like I do with a sleeping bag. C'mon guys, this is the 21st Century!

IMHO, anybody that manufactures a hammock for use in temperate and colder climates without a fitted and coordinated bottom insulation system is only making half a product. It's like selling a car that no one makes fuel for--- looks nice, but you aren't going anywhere with it.:mad:

{end rant}

---

Well if that's all you want, it's already done! ;)

JRB BMBH with a 3 or 4 season MWUQ, and the 3 season comes in a convertible to short or long version. The fit is so close to custom it might as well be Velcroed, zipped or snapped on, although it does not need any of those. Just clip it on as directed. It will hang a bit below the hammock. When you lay in the hammock it will then sag right down into the quilt quilt for just right tension and mucho warmth, every time. Once it is on, it can be left on until it is too hot.

Or there used to be the Speer Hammock's, who made a PeaPod which would wrap perfectly around his hammock( as well as quite a few other brands), once tied on as directed, again giving much warmth virtually without fail. Once it is on, it can be left on until it is too hot. These are available now from TTTgear, as Ed Speer has decided to earn a living in some other fashion than making hammock products. But boy did he leave a legacy of brilliantly designed, high quality gear. As he would say about this subject" "Not to worry"! ;) He also made a very famous custom UQ- the Snugfit- which if memory serves Velcroed to his hammock. But no one is making that now far as I know.

If you are a HH fan, there is the custom fit HHSS. Some don't like it, some others think it is just peachy. It can only go on(correctly) one way, as directed, and once it is on it fits perfectly and there is really nothing else to do. It either works for you or it doesn't. Then, as above, you leave it on.

There might be others I can't remember at the moment, or just don't know about. But with any of the above, there is nothing to fiddle with once they are first put on, and there is no way to have " trouble-- sliding around, air gaps, not quite enough, or too much.....".

Still, others will choose a 1/2-3/4 UQ, primarily for the purpose of saving weight and volume. And many of thos folks will be toasty warm, and when it is cold enough they will have a pad under their feet and also have toasty feet. I have one of these- as well as a few of the above listed- myself. A WB synthetic "Yeti". And it is one of my favorites overall. I can leave one layer of Climashield in it and be warm below well 50 for 9 or 10 oz, even without down. My son has used in- on his 1st ever hammock experience, with 3 layers, toasty in the 20s. With a short WM blue pad under his legs. It worked perfectly.

I really like the thing, but it does have more fiddle factor than any of the above systems. It can move up or down ( or I can move off of it) or slip off of my shoulder. I guess the foot pad could slip out of place. Or if it is not snug enough- with "enough" tension, it won't be as warm as it could be. The shock cord sometimes wants to contact my face. Still, I have found ways to solve all of these problems, just took a little playing with in the back yard. Or a minor mod or two depending on which hammock I am using it on. So I'm glad WB once made this thing( still available but they are all down now). Because I do think this system- with the possible exception of my PeaPod/Claytor combo- is about the most volume and weight efficient way to stay warm. Despite it's little hassles, it is a winner!

Why do I say "with the possible exception of my PeaPod/Claytor combo", when the PeaPod weighs 38-42 oz for the 20F(bottom) rated model? Compared to a 13 oz down torso UQ(plus leg pad), or a 22 oz full length UQ/TQ? Because, as people often forget, the PeaPod packs in a lot of TQ function as well as UQ. And it is so bombproof and hard to be cold in due to it's draft resistant design. If you are closed up in it- or have it partially open around the head but with something else inside(light quilt, or puffy clothing) to prevent all the warm air rushing past your shoulders and out a big vent hole- there will be no drafts. No matter how you move. ( unless you and your hammock are to big for it) And it has a ton of head insulation all ready built in. So considering all of that, and considering two LONG quilts( a TQ and an UQ) of 2.5" loft are going to weigh over 40 oz plus some more for a hood, I think the pod is actually quite weight efficient. And you will not roll of of the warm spot, nor will it move from covering you.

Quote:

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But that is still just tacking stuff on the outside. You see, the problem is that we think we're going to use the bare hammock, but we never will unless it is hot. I rarely camp or hike where the nighttime temps are over 70F. And that is the rub-- I will ALWAYS be using some sort of insulation on the bottom, so it should be an integral part of the hammock rather than an add-on.

Just build a double layer hammock that carries the weight and stress on the outer layer with a loose outer layer and make a selection of inserts.

---

People's needs will vary, and the manufacturer probably wants to account for that. It has been a month or 2 since I could even consider trying to lay in a hammock with anything under me, or probably over me. I am more likely to wet things down trying to get some evaporative cooling going on! :scared:
Agreed, even everything I mentioned above is just tacking something on the outside of the hammock. But in most of the cases I mentioned, it all works so well and consistently that I do not have a problem with it. Now admittedly, if I take one brand of hammock and tack on a different brand of insulation, things probably will become more complex and require more fiddle. But I'm not at all sure how any one can make any one quilt that will work with all these different brands and different size of hammocks perfectly, when the hammocks vary so much one from the other. Now you can have one type of insulation designed to be securely attached to one brand/type hammock, I suppose.

If you ever get a chance, try a 26" wide CCF pad in the pad pocket of a JRB BMBH. I find that to be a big improvement over any other hammock/pad combo I have tried. I might still chose UQs for ultimate comfort, but it is for me q quite usable system. It makes a big difference when the pad does not have to cross a center ridge, and is instead just laying on a flat surface of about the same size and shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shug

It works....been doing it for a while in winter with my Winter Yeti and my DIY Frankenquilt.
Shug

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I rest my case ;)

I am VERY pleased it works for you. But "works" and well designed can be very different things. Many manufacturers have done wonderful things with the main hammock bodies and the top quilts and tarps meld well. The integrated bug screens aren't bad, although some of the add-on ones are a little half-baked, but the insulation thing is just sad--- very, very sad. I think it can be done better.

I guess I'll have to learn to sew and show you guys how to get things done :tongueup:

I've actually be concidering something like this while trying to decide between hammocks as an addition to a Clark Tropical. With the smaller hammock bed I think it would work without adding much wasted weight, it would also be more like a 2/3 length. My concept would be having an outer floppy DWR layer (similar to the pockets to act as a wind and weather shield) attached with velcro and corner ties or shockcord/toggles along the hammock edge. Then to add insulating layers (probably climashield...) they would just have loops or rings on the corners that would use the corner connections for support and fill the DWR layer. There would obviously be more technical stuff like each layer being wider than the first but I doubt anyone wants nor needs me to ramble on about those.

That being said, I'd love to hear how direct attachment works for you. Sadly I agree with others that the cottage industies probably have it right with the shock cord since everyone quite literaly has their own lay, I'd imagine it would hard to design an attached full length underquilt that would work properly for the majority and not have a lot of wasted insulation or be a hassle to attach. It makes me sad because I too would rather not have to add a bunch a DIY projects but it goes along with hammocking I guess.

Oh, I suppose I should also mention that while weight is a factor for me (I am going to be hauling it around after all) I would rather have what works for me and keeps me super comfy than that saves a couple of oz...just to give you an idea of my thought process/hang style :)

Also, some of you mentioned that the direct attachment concept had been mentioned in other posts. If you know where they are please post some links!

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaleW

I rest my case ;)

I am VERY pleased it works for you. But "works" and well designed can be very different things. Many manufacturers have done wonderful things with the main hammock bodies and the top quilts and tarps meld well. The integrated bug screens aren't bad, although some of the add-on ones are a little half-baked, but the insulation thing is just sad--- very, very sad. I think it can be done better.

I guess I'll have to learn to sew and show you guys how to get things done :tongueup:

---

We await your innovation........always room fo' mo'.
Shug

in regards to a "double layer thingy...i made one... it was a super cheap alternative to an underquilt, that i made the night before a long cold winter backpacking trip. It was basically..... a bottom shell of nylon that i sewed little 1" pieces of velcro spaced around the edges. Then i took a cheap space blanket and reinforced areas with packing tape corresponding to the velcro on the shell, and put "sticky side velcro" on the reinforced areas. It made it so the space blanket was attached adequately to the shell, but removeable if i decided the VP was too annoying. Then i took an old sleeping bag and cut a 48"x26" chunk out of it... i then used 6 big safety pins to attach to the shell outer seam. I attached the shell via simple channels in the ends that i had elastic ribbon running through, which i just hooked onto the suspension of my hammock. There was a good amount of air between the sleeping bag and the shell/space blanket, like 3 inches. it did and excelent job of keeping me warm and the temps dropped down to 11 degrees F. with a light breeze.
Anyway, this system worked very well, but it was because of the space blanket being away from the sleeping bag. it weighed a TON! like 59oz, and i would have probly been fine in any of the high quality uq's out there....which weigh much less...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaleW

I rest my case ;)

I am VERY pleased it works for you. But "works" and well designed can be very different things. Many manufacturers have done wonderful things with the main hammock bodies and the top quilts and tarps meld well. The integrated bug screens aren't bad, although some of the add-on ones are a little half-baked, but the insulation thing is just sad--- very, very sad. I think it can be done better.

I guess I'll have to learn to sew and show you guys how to get things done :tongueup:

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like i have said when debating too much about what is the best way, or how to do it, or what problems will it have; when making many hammocking gear items...Just GRIP IT AND RIP IT!!! (not meant literally, dont rip your stuff up) But for a lot of things, you are not going to know what the issues are until it is made, and tested...grip it and rip it
-Dan

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Originally Posted by Shug

We await your innovation........always room fo' mo'.
Shug

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Fo' Sho'! Bring it on, I obviously need something else to spend some money on!

Regardless of the type of fastener or how many you stick on the bottom of your hammock....gravity will win. Nylon stretches more than polyester, fabric stretches more than webbing, etc. If you attach a quilt with hard points it may work fine today then droop terribly tomorrow. A 150lb guy will freeze (because the hammock doesn't sag into the quilt) but the 300lb guy is fine.

Adjustability is the key with any underquilt system. You need it to be able to snug it up tight to keep your backside warm or allow it to droop for some ventilation. This is a problem our ground dwelling cousins will never have to face but a hard fact for hangers.

Shockcord isn't the most eloquent solution to this problem but it's light, cheap, and available. I know my quilt would fit much better if I went ahead and stitched some loops on the hammock edges and attached the cords there (rather than going to the ends). Matching points at each shoulder, the head, and around the knees on each side would certainly keep my quilt better in place.

Unfortunately.....I swap this quilt back and forth between my hammock and my son's. So I'd have to match this custom hanging setup on both rigs. Until I have the funds to build myself a custom insulated hammock for each season (like a hanging sleeping bag) I guess I'll just stick with the stuff I've got. I will try to improve upon it with lots of good ideas presented here on the forums.

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Originally Posted by dandeman

.....but removeable if i decided the VP was too annoying.

-Dan

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In the "classic" sense, vapor barriers go between you and the insulation. In sub-zero conditions, your sleeping bag or quilt will gain weight and loose its insulating properties as your sweat freezes in the fill. Most use an inner bag liner for a barrier. In a perfect world, you don't give off much perspiration and what you do is kept warm by the nice *dry* insulation on the other side. Use a closed vapor barrier at 50F and you'll be a mess. At -20F, you will probably be warmer and your insulation will stay dry.

Putting the space blanket under your insulation helped to cut wind and convection losses. You may have gotten some heat reflected back towards you-- not much at that distance, but better than none :)

Space blankets work well to cut wind and rain. It will reflect heat and best if it isn't quite touching you. Hanging a space blanket *just* below your hammock bottom will product the best results. If you have space blankets on both sides of your insulation, then you get the reflection, the vapor barrier, and the wind barrier.

Condensation accumulating somewhere between the top of the space blanket and the user is an issue. That depends on dew point/humidity, the breathability of the hammock fabric, layers between you and the hammock (compressed sleeping bag and clothing), and ventilation (air leaks). I don't have a complete grasp of how the difference in temperature really effects it all with a hammock-- what happens at 40F vs. -20F and back to the dew point stuff. For my use, I am more concerned with lightweight systems down to 32F and high humidity.

Insulation is all about creating a dead air space between your warm body and the cold cruel world outside. Just dead air doesn't work, as you get convection currents going inside the aid space, transferring the heat to the cold outer cover. That is why plain air mattresses are cold. So we add filler to stop the air from moving--- the fiberglass batts in your walls and ceiling, or the insulation added to air mattresses, or CCF pads with lots of little bubbles and a material that doesn't transmit heat well, or feathers or fluffy fibers. Down is all about light weight and compressibility-- it maintains a large *still* air space, it is light for the loft it produces, and can be compressed for travel. You have to keep down dry, so the system needs to be ventilated.

Always remember that there is no such thing of force as "cold," only more or less heat. The battle is keeping the heat that you make in your body. You aren't keeping the cold out, you are trying to stop the heat in your body being transferred to the cold air or ground.

Hmmm. A lot of people are putting a lot of thought into the question of bottom insulation. That bodes well for future solutions, but it also says a lot about the state of the art - there's a lot of room for improvement. By the way, I'm working on a few things, too...;)

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Originally Posted by WV

Hmmm. A lot of people are putting a lot of thought into the question of bottom insulation. That bodes well for future solutions, but it also says a lot about the state of the art - there's a lot of room for improvement. By the way, I'm working on a few things, too...;)

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A hot water system with a circulating pump would be so warm :) Like a radiant floor.

Or a really big electric sock!

Where did I put the dilithium crystals.....

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Originally Posted by zukiguy

Regardless of the type of fastener or how many you stick on the bottom of your hammock....gravity will win. Nylon stretches more than polyester, fabric stretches more than webbing, etc. If you attach a quilt with hard points it may work fine today then droop terribly tomorrow. A 150lb guy will freeze (because the hammock doesn't sag into the quilt) but the 300lb guy is fine.

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You're thinking open-ended underquilts. I'm thinking undercovers with insulation inside. And I have to admit, anything I make will have synthetic fill, and everything is pretty well battened down. I am thinking full or at least 3/4 coverage too.

With an undercover and the quilt attached to the bottom of the hammock on all four sides, there is no droop. If you must, the insulation can easily have drawstrings in the ends, but with Velcro fastening to the hammock bottom, I don't know where it can go.

If there is a weak point in fastening the UQ to the hammock, it is at the top edge near your left shoulder and right of your feet, where there will be a couple inches of stress on top of the insulation, which may compress it a bit. Your top quilt should be doing the job, but if not, maybe it needs a little foam or Insultex "bumper" in those areas. The outer cover should be good 'n loose in those areas too.

And you don't have open air gaps with the under cover. There is no opportunity for moving air to get to the middle/bottom where things tend to sag. You have one more layer in play vs an add-on UQ if you are putting quilted down insulators in there.

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Originally Posted by DaleW

You're thinking open-ended underquilts. I'm thinking undercovers with insulation inside. And I have to admit, anything I make will have synthetic fill, and everything is pretty well battened down. I am thinking full or at least 3/4 coverage too.

With an undercover and the quilt attached to the bottom of the hammock on all four sides, there is no droop. If you must, the insulation can easily have drawstrings in the ends, but with Velcro fastening to the hammock bottom, I don't know where it can go.

If there is a weak point in fastening the UQ to the hammock, it is at the top edge near your left shoulder and right of your feet, where there will be a couple inches of stress on top of the insulation, which may compress it a bit. Your top quilt should be doing the job, but if not, maybe it needs a little foam or Insultex "bumper" in those areas. The outer cover should be good 'n loose in those areas too.

And you don't have open air gaps with the under cover. There is no opportunity for moving air to get to the middle/bottom where things tend to sag. You have one more layer in play vs an add-on UQ if you are putting quilted down insulators in there.

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As was mentioned earlier, Speer Hammocks sold an UQ that would attach to a Speer hammock with the velcro also used to attach the bugnet.

http://www.speerhammocks.com/Assets/...0Model%20A.jpg

It was an excellent design, but it never caught on with enough popularity to remain in production after Speer's merger. The differential cut allowed it to overcome issues with compression in relation to fit.

Thanks for the info and photo! I like it-- very simple and easy to deploy (and clone). I built a model last night, with an idea to sewing the under cover in place, but I am leaning to Velcro, especially for prototyping. I'm still thinking about baggy box-shaped under cover that covers all but the last foot or so of each end. Kind of like taking the Clark pockets idea and replacing them all with one continuous compartment. I'm thinking very seriously of adding Velcro to my Hennessy Zip and making insulation modules for that, borrowing from the Garlington Insulator concept. With Velcro it would be easy to ventilate the pocket too.

Differential cuts are mandatory to avoid compressing the insulation. With the Speer version, the issue with air gaps is eliminated all the way around and it does leave the opportunity for different quilts to be mounted. It would be easy to make a partial quilt with light fabric ends or just a lighter quilt overall. You could insert a vapor barrier/space blanket, Insultex liner, and so-on. Some have written that the UQ needs to be tight against the user, but I think that is more an issue with air gaps on a shock-cord mounted UQ, where you get gaps on the ends and air leaks down the unfixed sides.

The idea for a Velcro bug screen had occurred to me. I would have Velcro on the outside of the underquilt, so you could attach the screen to the quilt, or to the hammock body without the quilt in hot weather.

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Originally Posted by DaleW

You're thinking open-ended underquilts. I'm thinking undercovers with insulation inside. And I have to admit, anything I make will have synthetic fill, and everything is pretty well battened down. I am thinking full or at least 3/4 coverage too.

With an undercover and the quilt attached to the bottom of the hammock on all four sides, there is no droop. If you must, the insulation can easily have drawstrings in the ends, but with Velcro fastening to the hammock bottom, I don't know where it can go.

If there is a weak point in fastening the UQ to the hammock, it is at the top edge near your left shoulder and right of your feet, where there will be a couple inches of stress on top of the insulation, which may compress it a bit. Your top quilt should be doing the job, but if not, maybe it needs a little foam or Insultex "bumper" in those areas. The outer cover should be good 'n loose in those areas too.

And you don't have open air gaps with the under cover. There is no opportunity for moving air to get to the middle/bottom where things tend to sag. You have one more layer in play vs an add-on UQ if you are putting quilted down insulators in there.

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If the insulation's weight manages to push the UC downward more than the insulations ability to loft up and fill the space between the UC and hammock, there might be a problem. And more so if the UC is not very well sealed at all edges and the end, leaving an open path for cold air to flow downward and fill that even very small gap between your back and the insulation. Both the distance between the weighted ( with insulation) UC- after laying in the hammock- and the amount/loft of the added insulation will have either be just right- or adjustable. Obviously can be done with Velcro or snaps, but it will need to be pretty custom.

A Speer PeaPod- when fully or mostly closed- is supported by the nylon cords that tie it to the ends of the hammock, AND by the top side Velcro closure along the entire length. I adjust mine so that either, once I lay down, the bottom inside is barely in contact with my back, or if I want to add a jacket something for more loft, it has an inch or 3 gap after I lay down, but before adding extra insulation. ( or an unfilled gap if it is kind of warm out) That means I either start out with a 4-6" gap between the pod and un-occupied hammock, or more if I plan on adding something. if after I am in, I see that it is either too tight (compressing loft) or to loose with too much gap, I just get out and make one small adjustment on one end. Mostly, I never even have to do this. Once all of this is done, it will stay put due to the non-elastic end cords and the full length Velcro closure, pretty much ending any worries of any thru the night sag. Also, as it is cinched tight around the hammock on the ends, and closed as tightly as desired along the top, with thick loft draping over the hammock edges and down onto the user, there really won't be any cold air rushing in to fill any unintended gap under your back.

True it is added on, but it sure has been bomb proof, on more than one brand of hammock, for me. I just has not failed me up to 10F below it's rated temps, with addition of either puffy clothing or a 40-50F TQ and a space blanket below.

The insulated hammocks are interesting concepts, though they have all been DIY. That will save the weight of one layer of nylon. Just a larger layer of nylon sewn to the hammock and filled with insulating material. But venting in warm weather MIGHT be a problem, I suppose?

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Originally Posted by DaleW

The idea for a Velcro bug screen had occurred to me. I would have Velcro on the outside of the underquilt, so you could attach the screen to the quilt, or to the hammock body without the quilt in hot weather.

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That's how the Speer system works.

When you're thinking like Ed Speer, you're doing some top tier thinking.:)

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Originally Posted by BillyBob58

If the insulation's weight manages to push the UC downward more than the insulations ability to loft up and fill the space between the UC and hammock, there might be a problem. And more so if the UC is not very well sealed at all edges and the end, leaving an open path for cold air to flow downward and fill that even very small gap between your back and the insulation. Both the distance between the weighted ( with insulation) UC- after laying in the hammock- and the amount/loft of the added insulation will have either be just right- or adjustable. Obviously can be done with Velcro or snaps, but it will need to be pretty custom.

A Speer PeaPod- when fully or mostly closed- is supported by the nylon cords that tie it to the ends of the hammock, AND by the top side Velcro closure along the entire length. I adjust mine so that either, once I lay down, the bottom inside is barely in contact with my back, or if I want to add a jacket something for more loft, it has an inch or 3 gap after I lay down, but before adding extra insulation. ( or an unfilled gap if it is kind of warm out) That means I either start out with a 4-6" gap between the pod and un-occupied hammock, or more if I plan on adding something. if after I am in, I see that it is either too tight (compressing loft) or to loose with too much gap, I just get out and make one small adjustment on one end. Mostly, I never even have to do this. Once all of this is done, it will stay put due to the non-elastic end cords and the full length Velcro closure, pretty much ending any worries of any thru the night sag. Also, as it is cinched tight around the hammock on the ends, and closed as tightly as desired along the top, with thick loft draping over the hammock edges and down onto the user, there really won't be any cold air rushing in to fill any unintended gap under your back.

True it is added on, but it sure has been bomb proof, on more than one brand of hammock, for me. I just has not failed me up to 10F below it's rated temps, with addition of either puffy clothing or a 40-50F TQ and a space blanket below.

The insulated hammocks are interesting concepts, though they have all been DIY. That will save the weight of one layer of nylon. Just a larger layer of nylon sewn to the hammock and filled with insulating material. But venting in warm weather MIGHT be a problem, I suppose?

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The Speer system is the bast I've seen so far.

Understood on the support/weight/loft issues. The UC would be sealed (sewn) on all sides and would be on the deep side. My plan is to have perpendicular channels with light shock cord and toggles, so the depth could be adjusted. Using Garlington Insulators or variants would be easy. Down would need some suspension from the bottom of the hammock so it could hang freely. I think synthetic fills could be used for a big flat quilt and just sit in the UC. Getting high up the sides is the challenge.

I'm thinking super light stuff like Pertex for the UC-- it really is a windshirt for the hammock. It needs to support it's own weight plus a couple space blankets. From there it needs help with suspension from the hammock body.

Did any new, innovative, modular designs ever come of this thread? It came up in a search I did, and I must say, it was a great thought provoking read and I thought it was worth reviving a year and a half later...

I must say, our passtime of hammocking has really evolved into something cutting edge. Hammocks used to just be a length of whatever fabric was on hand gathered at the ends and tied to two trees in warmer weather. Now, we can sleep comfortably with all of our gadgets and gizmo's down to -26F.

I believe this thread indicates that we are at a crossroads when it comes to hammock gear, technology, and innovation. There is a demand for simpler, easier to use, "idiot-proof" designs, and this seems to go against the mind-set of the man Do-It-Yourselfers that we have on this forum. I must say, I've always been amazed by the resourcefulness of the members here. I'm sure that we will come up with something that will work for most.

Great thread, thanks,

JGON

Separate components = flexibility
Separate components = complexity

hmmmm...

Lots of great thoughts and insights in the thread, here. I know this is slightly necro ("Arise, Ancient Thread! Arise!" *cough* *hack* *cough*...durned booming hollow voice always hurts my throat...:laugh:), but I'm in the midst of hacking at modular quilts (both top and bottom) right now. My first layer, full-length IX, is just about done and has been tested recently.

I've been musing on draft skirts, and I think it's hard to beat Youngblood's design for the ends. Requires no modification to the hammock proper and will add only ~1-2 oz of weight at most to the quilt.

I've tried a Velcro attachment, differentially-cut IX underquilt layer, and it works pretty well so far. Not quite what I was hoping for on temperature range, but I think part of that is air intrusion at the ends; there're slight gaps at either end between the quilt edge and the bottom of the hammock. So, draft skirts.

The next layer (down) should be pretty easy to engineer; it's 2/3 length at most (torso and upper thigh) and should get me down to 20-ish. Building draft stoppers onto one that length should be easier than with the full length; the IX layer is pretty smooth on the outside. We'll see...

One issue that all underquilts must deal with is having them fit against the bottom of the hammock all the way across - not just at the edges. Air gaps under the knees have been a problem for many who use full length underquilts. I like full length quilts, myself, but I recognize that they're not perfect. Note, if you DIY, remember that the heavier the quilt is, the harder it is to make it fit tight evenly.

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Originally Posted by WV

One issue that all underquilts must deal with is having them fit against the bottom of the hammock all the way across - not just at the edges. Air gaps under the knees have been a problem for many who use full length underquilts. I like full length quilts, myself, but I recognize that they're not perfect. Note, if you DIY, remember that the heavier the quilt is, the harder it is to make it fit tight evenly.

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Most definitely. That issue I've addressed by making the IX a little narrower than the hammock proper (I had assistance in measuring my personal size in the hammock here, so it matches the half-(or slightly more, actually)circumference of my body in the hammock as it sags.

However, that's resulted in a slight change in the hammock lie; it's become a little more like an "hard" bed rather than a "soft" one. Since the first layer is IX, though, and there's ~2 inches of play in the side attachment points, total, this matters less than if I was compressing down in the first layer with no play in the suspension.

A bigger issue is the air intrusion at the ends; this is where I think I currently need to put effort forth. We'll see if a wind-blocking piece of skirt with some shock cord here will do the trick...here's hoping...

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Originally Posted by JGON

Did any new, innovative, modular designs ever come of this thread? It came up in a search I did, and I must say, it was a great thought provoking read and I thought it was worth reviving a year and a half later...

I must say, our passtime of hammocking has really evolved into something cutting edge. Hammocks used to just be a length of whatever fabric was on hand gathered at the ends and tied to two trees in warmer weather. Now, we can sleep comfortably with all of our gadgets and gizmo's down to -26F.

I believe this thread indicates that we are at a crossroads when it comes to hammock gear, technology, and innovation. There is a demand for simpler, easier to use, "idiot-proof" designs, and this seems to go against the mind-set of the man Do-It-Yourselfers that we have on this forum. I must say, I've always been amazed by the resourcefulness of the members here. I'm sure that we will come up with something that will work for most.

Great thread, thanks,

JGON

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Dutch Hammock clips? :laugh: