Amsteel and knots, what's the deal?

Splicing is obviously better than knots. This works well for when you make up some permanent rigging for your hammock or other things, but there are many times that you want/need to just tie a knot.

Regarding amsteel and knots, I have heard two concerns. Some people claim that knots cannot hold due to the slippery nature of the amsteel line. Well, I recently received some amsteel, and after experimenting I'm pretty sure this isn't actually a problem if the right knots are used, even for a slide a grip knot. I suggest the klemheist over the prusik.

The other concern seems more likely. I have read that the nature of the material is such that it is weakened by knots much more than normal line. Is this true and why?

If amsteel is weakened too much to take knots, this seems like a major defect. I'd rather carry a heaver line that can be knotted. The weight difference probably isn't very much anyway.

The whole idea about steering away from using knots with Amsteel is this - knots derate ALL cordage (some knots derate the cord by as much as 60%).

When you are talking suspension, that is the real danger and the reason many folks steer clear of knots.

This would be an issue if you were using 7/64 Amsteel for your suspension due to the fact that the breaking strength is 1600 lbs. If you tie an overhand knot in it you will derate it by 60% meaning your rating is now 640lbs. Pair that up with a not-ideal hang where your angles are steeper than usual (see Knotty's chart), at 10 degrees, you have exceeded your rating for your suspension and risk breaking. Of course there are knots that derate the line by much less, but many folks choose to not have the worry and just splice.

Someone much more Mathy than myself may chime in.

As well, due to the slippery nature of amsteel tied in with the compressibility of it, when loaded most knots compress the line to an extreme level. This plays into weakening the line more than most and makes it very hard to undo the knot, even those that may not be difficult in a rope with a core. If you have a knot that is significantly weakened and is not able to be untied for some reason then you are far better off with a splice. Splicing is not hard to do and does not take long either...there are even folks that will do the splicing for you. :)

Then there is the sheer kewel factor.....:cool:

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knots derate ALL cordage

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This is understood. I'd like to know what about amsteel is particularly unsuited for knots.

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due to the slippery nature of amsteel tied in with the compressibility of it, when loaded most knots compress the line to an extreme level. This plays into weakening the line more than most

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Ah okay. So, the slipperiness of the line allows the knots to tighten more, and thus pinch the line harder. Is this the main issue?

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Then there is the sheer kewel factor

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Undisputed. I definitely like being able to spice the rope. Very useful and awesome, but knots are also useful.

Amsteel is super strong in tension but disproportionately weaker than standard ropes in compression, so knots derate amsteel more than normal. The sailing world learned a lot of hard lessons on this subject.

Use amsteel for situations where premade splices make sense or where you'll make knots but know in advance that the loads won't be too high.

Many knots will start to distort and creep at as little as 10% of amsteel's rated strength, per the best known rigger in the US, Brion Toss.

But I have to wonder - due to the slipperyness the knots DO become veeerrrrrryyyyy tight.

And they remain tight. Might there be a long-term degredation taking place within the super-tight knot? Fibers under constant tension elongating? I do not know - just wondering.

Jim

Something that's not been mentioned yet is that Amsteel is super easy to splice in the field. I keep a fid in my string bag whenever I'm on the trail. I haven't needed it yet, but I use it for fiddling around while killing time in camp.

PF

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Originally Posted by Jsaults

But I have to wonder - due to the slipperyness the knots DO become veeerrrrrryyyyy tight.

And they remain tight. Might there be a long-term degredation taking place within the super-tight knot? Fibers under constant tension elongating? I do not know - just wondering.

Jim

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I think yes but it's the compression, not the tension that's the issue.

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Originally Posted by PuckerFactor

Something that's not been mentioned yet is that Amsteel is super easy to splice in the field. I keep a fid in my string bag whenever I'm on the trail. I haven't needed it yet, but I use it for fiddling around while killing time in camp.

PF

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Great idea. Will have to create a small splicing kit for my backpack.

I now carry a splicing tool in the fiel. Not only for splicing, but as tendertoe and rip waverly know, we had a tough time pulling/pushing shockcord through my uq channel. Now it shouldn't be as hard:)

I know brandon's warbonnet hammock use knots with the 7/64 amsteel on the gathered end. I don't know what they are but they hold well. I don't know knots, but spliding is easy, fun, and neat. So I splice.

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Use amsteel for situations where premade splices make sense or where you'll make knots but know in advance that the loads won't be too high

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Ah okay. So, a decent plan would be to use amsteel for premade rigging, but use polyester line if I wanted to bring a few coils for general camp use?

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Many knots will start to distort and creep at as little as 10% of amsteel's rated strength, per the best known rigger in the US, Brion Toss.

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Yes I know who Brion Toss is and I agree with the statement, but I don't plan to use "many knots". I would use knots that do not distort and creep. From what I can tell, the knots that don't work well with amsteel aren't the best option for regular line anyway.


I agree that splicing is easy and doesn't take too much time, but knots are even easier and faster. I think it's great to setup rigging ahead of time with splices, but personally I wouldn't want to bother with it on the trail.



******edit****** (I digress here a bit, feel free to skip)
Here's what I'm picturing: Say we are on a trip. When we get to camp we need to setup a clothes line. (say we were canoeing or it rained or something) So you pull out your spare amsteel and make an eye splice and loop the rope around the tree and through the eye and head toward the second tree, only to find that your length isn't long enough to reach the tree. So you pull out your fid and make and end to end splice to another spare piece you have, wrap it around the tree and tie a knot. (approximately 10 min?) (perhaps you make a woopie and attach to the tree with tree straps? I'm not actually sure what you guys would use for this.) ... Meanwhile I grabbed my spare line, tied a double dragon knot loop, wrapped the line around the tree, and through the loop. Upon finding that my line didn't reach I tied an double harness bend to a new piece, then tied an adjustable grip hitch around the second tree, and tensioned the line. (approximately 2 min?)


I'm not saying it's a race, but when I get into camp I'm usually pretty tired. I don't think I'd want to bother with splicing.
Another thing is that I don't think you would make and unmake splices to reuse the rope for different tasks as you would with knots.

For extra camp chores like you mention, you could carry less weight by using dynaglide, accessory cordage, mason line, etc. See attachment for weights.

If you do still decide on Amsteel, as long as you aren't hanging from it, knot away. I agree that I wouldn't wanna fiddle around (no pun intended :lol:) with fidding when you can easily and quickly knot.