I have been getting a few questions about the diy bugnet I showed in my last trip report video. I broke out the section that shows the diy bugnet and added an illustration for reference.
The illustration is no work of art but it should give you the general idea. There could be many variations of this concept. Post some pics here if you you do some version of this.
The distance from the ridgeline to middle of hammock is the MINIMUM length of the middle of bugnet. This minimum distance will let the bugnet pull all the way down to edge of hammock. I suggest adding extra length and/or shaping to help make a smaller gap at top.
03-03-2011, 12:25
gargoyle
Genius hangnout. I like it.
Left or right side entry/exit too.
Will it stay down when needed or will the net want to pull itself back up? Add some ties to keep it in the down position?
03-03-2011, 12:30
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by gargoyle
Genius hangnout. I like it.
Left or right side entry/exit too.
Will it stay down when needed or will the net want to pull itself back up? Add some ties to keep it in the down position?
It will stay down when using as a chair. If I want to lay in it without the net, I have a small pack hook on one side. I can pull the net under and hook to the shock cord in the channel on the other side to keep it under the hammock.
03-03-2011, 12:43
silentorpheus
How well do you think it will work in full on bug season? Will the 'seal' it creates keep out serious mosquitoes and the like, or is it too loose? I love the simplicity and ease of it, but I'm always a bit leery of something that doesn't seal completely.
03-03-2011, 12:51
rjcress
Brilliant!
Simply brilliant.
Thanks for sharing.
The video makes it pretty easy to understand. Not sure I would have understood a written description.
03-03-2011, 12:53
RePete
Thanks for this explanation. Saw the video the other day and loved it. Do you have much issue with wind blowing the flap at the top? That seems to be my only concern with this design. Very creative.
03-03-2011, 13:33
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentorpheus
How well do you think it will work in full on bug season? Will the 'seal' it creates keep out serious mosquitoes and the like, or is it too loose? I love the simplicity and ease of it, but I'm always a bit leery of something that doesn't seal completely.
I think that it would keep out flying insects but ticks etc could work their way in. I am a 3season hiker (fall,winter,spring) so this setup in fine in the SE. I have used less than this on most trips. Side benefits other than bug protection are added warmth in cooler weather and keeps all the quilts in the hammock:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcress
Brilliant!
Simply brilliant.
Thanks for sharing.
The video makes it pretty easy to understand. Not sure I would have understood a written description.
Thanks for watching
Quote:
Originally Posted by otter46544
Thanks for this explanation. Saw the video the other day and loved it. Do you have much issue with wind blowing the flap at the top? That seems to be my only concern with this design. Very creative.
Quote from the trip report thread
High winds would blow the top around but also would blow the bugs away:D. The first day I tested it at home the winds were blowing the hammock straight up like a kite. Put the hammock under the tarp and everything was good. Also the cords on the UQ keep the top from blowing around. I run the UQ cords to the ridgeline outside of the top cover. I could make the bug net a little taller to bring it closer to the ridge line and then attach the top cover over the ridgeline to hold it in place. You could even clip the bug net to the ridgeline to hold it in place and use a smaller top cover. This would require a much more precise pattern on the bugnet.
This was just a prototype to see if the idea would work. I put the top cover on the ridgeline which looked better but did not seal as well. I needed to make the bugnet bigger to use the top cover on the ridgeline. I decided to keep it simple and see which issues where valid.
If I get around to doing a final version I would do the following.
Cat cut the top cover and sew it to the hammock
Put the top cover over the ridgeline
Sew bug netting to the bottom of the top cover to form a tube of sorts
The tube would make a good seal due to "wrapping" around the top of the bug net when it was pulled up into it
Add to the bugnet length in the head and foot corners as seen ing the red portion in the illustration
I believe that the improvements listed above would address the wind concern and create the best seal possible with this type setup.
03-03-2011, 14:12
rjcress
Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
...
If I get around to doing a final version I would do the following.
Cat cut the top cover and sew it to the hammock
Put the top cover over the ridgeline
Sew bug netting to the bottom of the top cover to form a tube of sorts
The tube would make a good seal due to "wrapping" around the top of the bug net when it was pulled up into it
Add to the bugnet length in the head and foot corners as seen ing the red portion in the illustration
I believe that the improvements listed above would address the wind concern and create the best seal possible with this type setup.
I'm not able to visualize what you mean on points 3 & 4 that mention a "tube"
Had an idea though...
What if you used the same concept that holds the sides of the bugnet up to hold the sides of the top cover down?
ie, a channel on each long edge with shock cord. Attach the ends of the shockcord to a point on the side of the hammock lower than the suspension attachment, so that the shock cord pulls the top cover down towards the bug net. Should work nicely with a cat or parabolic cut as you mentioned above.
Just thinking out loud.
Don't know if it will work, but that is what came to my mind while fixing lunch.
Oh, also... couldn't you make the top cover out of bug netting also?
03-03-2011, 14:26
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcress
I'm not able to visualize what you mean on points 3 & 4 that mention a "tube"
Had an idea though...
What if you used the same concept that holds the sides of the bugnet up to hold the sides of the top cover down?
ie, a channel on each long edge with shock cord. Attach the ends of the shockcord to a point on the side of the hammock lower than the suspension attachment, so that the shock cord pulls the top cover down towards the bug net. Should work nicely with a cat or parabolic cut as you mentioned above.
Just thinking out loud.
Don't know if it will work, but that is what came to my mind while fixing lunch.
Oh, also... couldn't you make the top cover out of bug netting also?
This is why I put this out there. I thought of those but need more help sewing prototypes:D
The "tube" I mentioned would just be a strip of bugnet sewn into the top cover. It would hang down forming the "tube". When the sides of the bugnet went up into the top cover the bugnet tube would fold around the edges of the bugnet forming a better seal. IMO your idea would be all i would need but combining the two ideas would form a really good seal.
03-03-2011, 15:00
ShadowAlpha
nice! simple design.
looks to be hassle free
03-03-2011, 16:16
scum
I like this a lot. I've got a few ideas rolling in my head about how to handle the seal better. If I can knock out a successful prototype, I'll share.
One thing I did want to share that makes me really want to do this. If you put some grosgrain loops on each channel edge, when you flip the bugnets, you can use mitten hooks to connect them under you and thus create a big no-seeum pocket under your hammock. If done right, you could use this for storage and/or a little extra insulation boost in the winter etc making the bugnet less useless for the colder months. Just a thought.
03-03-2011, 17:27
rjcress
Quote:
Originally Posted by scum
I like this a lot. I've got a few ideas rolling in my head about how to handle the seal better. If I can knock out a successful prototype, I'll share.
One thing I did want to share that makes me really want to do this. If you put some grosgrain loops on each channel edge, when you flip the bugnets, you can use mitten hooks to connect them under you and thus create a big no-seeum pocket under your hammock. If done right, you could use this for storage and/or a little extra insulation boost in the winter etc making the bugnet less useless for the colder months. Just a thought.
Anyone ever heard the saying "none us of are as smart as all of us" ??
I don't recall ever seeing that so clearly as I do here at HF.
The free exchange of ideas really seams to result in rapid evolution of good ideas into great ideas.
I think this thread is a shining example (and not just because I contributed an idea) :rolleyes::D
03-03-2011, 18:02
Redoleary
Thats a super idea, well executed!
03-03-2011, 21:11
Captn
Can you make the top cover out of bug netting with shock cord on the bottom channels of that top piece?
03-03-2011, 21:43
PapaSmurf
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captn
Can you make the top cover out of bug netting with shock cord on the bottom channels of that top piece?
That's what I was thinking too. Fixed noseeum top cover. Wouldn't non-stretchy edging give the shock cord channels something to rest against?
Or, possibly make the entry from one side only and use the fixed portion to provide a more rigid closure flap.
Hmmm... so many possibilities.
03-03-2011, 21:48
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captn
Can you make the top cover out of bug netting with shock cord on the bottom channels of that top piece?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaSmurf
That's what I was thinking too. Fixed noseeum top cover. Wouldn't non-stretchy edging give the shock cord channels something to rest against?
Or, possibly make the entry from one side only and use the fixed portion to provide a more rigid closure flap.
Hmmm... so many possibilities.
Good stuff, Somebody needs to start thread injecting some prototypes:D
03-03-2011, 21:56
PapaSmurf
Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
Good stuff, Somebody needs to start thread injecting some prototypes:D
I just put it on my ever growing list.
03-03-2011, 22:07
optimator
And I thought you outdid yourself with the triangle thingies. Very nice design Mark!
03-03-2011, 22:11
LaVista
Rather then create an additional top cover piece, you could also just cut one side of the bug net longer then the other sideand it would flop over the ridgeline, self-sealing.
You could integrate a few small netting pockets into the edge of the "flopping over" piece into which you could place some small items to keep the netting weighed down.
03-03-2011, 23:13
rjcress
Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
Good stuff, Somebody needs to start thread injecting some prototypes:D
I've got the side netting done. Haven't started the cover yet... can't decide which way I want to do it, and its getting a bit past my bed time. :)
I hoped to finish this tonight, but the shockcord that I ordered earlier this week hasn't come in yet. Hope it comes tomorrow.
Here's what I'm thinking:
-I really like the flexibility of the original design because you can get in or out on either side.
-I like also like the idea of making a flap on one of the sides that can fold over the top, eliminating the need for the cover.
-The hammock I'm working on is for my 7 yr old daughter.I don't think she'll be too keen on dealing with the flap, so for this one, I think the cover is a better option. I may do a flap on one for me later.
-I'm torn on making the cover of nylon vs netting. The netting is harder to work with and I'm not eager to try a cat or parabolic curve in light netting. Probably will do nylon to make the sewing easier.
-Also thinking about how to make the cover secure enough to seal well, but easy to remove. Or maybe not. On second thought, I don't think it is a priority that the cover is removable. At least not for this hammock.
So, I'll sleep on it (the idea, not the hammock) and see what I think over the weekend. Really wanted to finish this tonight so I can work on IX TQs when my shipment of supplies arrives tomorrow... but finishing tonight looks unlikely.
Great timing on this thread, by the way.
I took my 7 yr old daughter on her first backpacking trip last weekend with a bunch of HF.net folks. She used my wife's HH ULBA... which I put up for sale last Friday. The HH sold, so my daughter is on me to do 2 things:
-add a bug net to her DIY hammock
-add a HH style bottom entry to her DIY hammock.
So far, this looks like a super option for making a bug net that will keep the bugs off of her, but make it easy for her to get in and out from the sides. Maybe she'll like it enough that I won't have to add the HH style bottom entry. :)
03-03-2011, 23:15
rjcress
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captn
Can you make the top cover out of bug netting with shock cord on the bottom channels of that top piece?
Brilliant Idea!!!!
Wish I would have thought of it...
... a bit after 2pm today...
I could have called it something artsy like "post number 8"
:D:rolleyes:;):cool:
What is it they say about Great minds? :laugh::lol:
03-04-2011, 00:06
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcress
I've got the side netting done. Haven't started the cover yet... can't decide which way I want to do it, and its getting a bit past my bed time. :)
Great timing on this thread, by the way.
I took my 7 yr old daughter on her first backpacking trip last weekend with a bunch of HF.net folks. She used my wife's HH ULBA... which I put up for sale last Friday. The HH sold, so my daughter is on me to do 2 things:
-add a bug net to her DIY hammock
-add a HH style bottom entry to her DIY hammock.
So far, this looks like a super option for making a bug net that will keep the bugs off of her, but make it easy for her to get in and out from the sides. Maybe she'll like it enough that I won't have to add the HH style bottom entry. :)
One thing to watch out for is that the top of the netting is not straight when hammock is occupied especially with an asym lay. Make sure the top cover is big enougn to cover the gap. I am going to add more length to the bugnet if I get around to making another one.
Nothing like hammocks and kids. Hammocks and/or camping have let me spend time with my daughters doing something we both enjoy. My youngest (2sticks) is working on sewing her first hammock but she wants to use her removable bugnet so we don't get to try this idea out on hers.
Waiting on pics!
03-04-2011, 01:33
rjcress
Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
One thing to watch out for is that the top of the netting is not straight when hammock is occupied especially with an asym lay. Make sure the top cover is big enougn to cover the gap....
Waiting on pics!
Now you tell me!:lol::lol:
:)
(actually, I think you did mention it)
I got impatient and knew that if I went to bed I'd just lay there thinking about how to do the cover... so I made the cover.
It is removable and looks very much like what you have in your video, only narrower.
... and I'm pretty sure I made it too narrow in the center.
We shall see tomorrow when the shockcord arrives and I can install it, but I'm pretty certain it will prove to be WAY too narrow in the center of the cover.
The good thing is that I can always just add a strip to the cover to make it wider. Maybe even in a different color to provide contrast and possibly make folks think it was done on purpose for aesthetic reasons. :)
I'm thinking that I'll have to add 4 grosgrain loops to the hammock edge hem to attach the shock cord for the cover so that it will pull down towards the bug net side panels. Hmmm. It may not even require full shockcord. I think I'll start with a 12" section of shock cord on one end of some spectra. (I have more spectra than shockcord)
I should post pics now, but instead I'm going to bed.
What I've done so far isn't particularly picture worthy anyway
:eek::D
03-04-2011, 05:56
Captn
A hangnout bug net ......... Got a certain ring to it
03-04-2011, 10:06
rjcress
Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
Waiting on pics!
Here are 3 links to pics I took this morning. Sorry the pics are terrible. Low light + a crappy camera = poor quality photos.
So far:
- My cover started as 80" long (for a short, kid's hammock), 20" wide at the ends, and 8" wide in the center (trying to approximate a curved cut). I screwed up the hem allowance, so it is ~7" in the center after hemming both edges. I think this will have to be wider, and I'll likely add a 2-3" wide stripe to each side of the cover to make it an additional 4-6" wide at the center. Won't know about this until I get the shock cord and install it to see if/how much wider it needs to be.
-Not happy with how I installed the cover by slipping over the whipped end. To get it to slip over the bundle of fabric at the whipped end I had to make the hole big enough that it wants to slide down the hammock body. Likely will add a loop to pass the suspension through so that the cover won't slide towards the center.
-if the box of supplies doesn't arrive today I'll be pretty disappointed. Can't wait to get the shockcord installed and load my little girl in the hammock to see how this works. :mellow:
03-04-2011, 11:47
SmokeHouse
Great job,,, I like it... :thumbup::thumbup:
03-04-2011, 17:59
Captn
Wow ..... You work fasssssst!
03-04-2011, 19:02
hangnout
Looking good. Wish I had mentioned making the top cover bigger earlier:D
03-04-2011, 19:55
wwk10
Question and a comment.
How do you sew/attach the bug net to the edge of the hammock?
There was some mention but not much follow up on securing the bug net under the hammock. How about 3 - 4 loops on the left and right shock cord to secure the bug net under the hammock in cooler (bug free weather)?
Could the bug net secured under the hammock then be used to hold a blue pad? Now it keeps bugs out in warm weather and holds a foam pad in cool weather.
03-04-2011, 20:16
MacEntyre
That is a fantastic idea, hangnout! :thumbup:
03-04-2011, 20:30
ShadowAlpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwk10
Question and a comment.
How do you sew/attach the bug net to the edge of the hammock?
There was some mention but not much follow up on securing the bug net under the hammock. How about 3 - 4 loops on the left and right shock cord to secure the bug net under the hammock in cooler (bug free weather)?
Could the bug net secured under the hammock then be used to hold a blue pad? Now it keeps bugs out in warm weather and holds a foam pad in cool weather.
great idea wwk10 if it can hold a blue pad underneath
03-04-2011, 22:53
JayS
This is a really great idea! So simple in action.
03-05-2011, 09:12
ShadowAlpha
has anyone considered using a full length zipper attached to top area where the bug net separates by ridgeline? a zipper like a jacket that detaches - so if you want to fold bugnet under hammock it can still be done. just thinking out loud here....
03-05-2011, 09:44
RePete
I was thinking the zipper as well then I thought the zipper probably would not give enough to be able to lower the net to get in and out. I could be wrong.
03-05-2011, 09:58
ShadowAlpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by otter46544
I was thinking the zipper as well then I thought the zipper probably would not give enough to be able to lower the net to get in and out. I could be wrong.
Makes sense..
possibly 2 zippers?
or I might use tabs & small toggles to keep the top shut..
03-05-2011, 11:22
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwk10
Question and a comment.
How do you sew/attach the bug net to the edge of the hammock?
There was some mention but not much follow up on securing the bug net under the hammock. How about 3 - 4 loops on the left and right shock cord to secure the bug net under the hammock in cooler (bug free weather)?
Could the bug net secured under the hammock then be used to hold a blue pad? Now it keeps bugs out in warm weather and holds a foam pad in cool weather.
I attached with a rolled hem and edged the curved side with diy bias tape made from some 1.1 ripstop.
I have a pack hook on each side of the bugnet. When I pull it under I use a piece of shockcord between the two hooks. You could use multiple hooks with shockcord to make a pad holder
Everybody comes from a different perspective. I actually like the bugnet and top cover in cold weather. Forms kind of a "sock" of sorts and adds several degrees to the inside of hammock. Also contains all the quilts etc from falling out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacEntyre
That is a fantastic idea, hangnout! :thumbup:
Thanks,
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAlpha
has anyone considered using a full length zipper attached to top area where the bug net separates by ridgeline? a zipper like a jacket that detaches - so if you want to fold bugnet under hammock it can still be done. just thinking out loud here....
Quote:
Originally Posted by otter46544
I was thinking the zipper as well then I thought the zipper probably would not give enough to be able to lower the net to get in and out. I could be wrong.
Actually a zipper would work because it would form a non-structural ridgeline of sorts. IMO if I were going to put a zipper on I would just do it on the bottom edge. The zipper would have to be unzipped all the way to get in and would be a PIA to zip back up.
03-05-2011, 11:26
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAlpha
or I might use tabs & small toggles to keep the top shut..
I put some pack hooks on the top edge of bugnet and clipped to the ridgeline. This worked really well but I needed to make my bugnet longer to keep from putting too much strain on the netting. On the next one I make I will make the net bigger and clip the pack hooks to the ridgeline. This will require less top cover since the gap will be controlled. One on each side is all that is needed and they are easy to un-clip.
The pack hooks can also be used to hold net under hammock. OWF is the only place I have found that carries the pack hook I used.
For summer, the rooftop could be made of bugnetting.
I love the use of an overlap. It occurs to me that the shock cord channel could be made such that it has an extra wide hem above it, making a 1.5" frill to help make the soft seal.
I used to keep bugs out of the little pilot house of my first fishing vessel by draping two layers of shrimp netting over it. The mesh in shrimp net is 1/2", but two layers of it was enough to keep out mossies and noseeums. Even rats thought they couldn't get through!
- MacEntyre
03-05-2011, 13:11
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacEntyre
For summer, the rooftop could be made of bugnetting.
I love the use of an overlap. It occurs to me that the shock cord channel could be made such that it has an extra wide hem above it, making a 1.5" frill to help make the soft seal.
- MacEntyre
Wish I had thought of that. Would work even better if sewn to lay towards the outside
Validates the reason for this thread.
03-05-2011, 14:29
Captn
Quote:
Originally Posted by hangnout
Wish I had thought of that. Would work even better if sewn to lay towards the outside
Validates the reason for this thread.
Like we need validation to talk hammocks!
Great idea ..... Keep feeding the wildlife on here .... We all get a little testy if we don't have something new and cool to mull over! This will keep my creative juices flowing for a while.
03-05-2011, 14:32
Hawk-eye
Just catching up on videos and saw that Hangout ... mighty sweet idea! Now if you can get Rain to smile more! Sorry the lady of the trail couldn't make it ... always look forward to her commentary!
03-05-2011, 16:21
wwk10
OK. I want to make one.
Everyone, time to wrap it up; let’s iron out the details and come to a consensus. RJCress knock out a prototype, DeJoja get the informative illustration posted, Shug and GrizzlyAdams post the informative videos.
Quickly now, the bugs are coming.
03-05-2011, 16:57
MacEntyre
I'm making one for a customer. Hangnout graciously gave his permission. It will be the first Molly Mac Gear "No Midges Allowed" Hammock. :thumbup:
- MacEntyre
03-05-2011, 17:30
wwk10
1 Attachment(s)
I contributed nothing to this. None of these ideas are mine. Just wanted to try and illustrate other's ideas.
How do you calculate the curve of the bug net where it attaches to the hammock?
What is the shock cord anchored to at the foot and head end?
Will this form a seal without the canopy?
How do you seal the head and foot end? Draw string to cinch it tight?
03-05-2011, 17:46
hangnout
Actually the edge attached to the hammock is the straight edge. The pattern curves out. This is what allows the bugnet to pull down. The net ends up being "pleated" on the shockcord.
When the hammock is suspended the curved edge with shockcord becomes straight (with pleats)
03-05-2011, 17:58
wwk10
OK On the one hand I understand. On the other I need pictures.
Did you just eyeball it to determine the curve?
The distance from the ridgeline to middle of hammock is the MINIMUM length of the middle of bugnet. This minimum distance will let the bugnet pull all the way down to edge of hammock. I suggest adding extra length and/or shaping to help make a smaller gap at top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwk10
OK On the one hand I understand. On the other I need pictures.
Did you just eyeball it to determine the curve?
The top pic in the illustraion shows the pattern shape (grey/red area) of the bugnet.
The red arrow in the middle pic shows the minimum length in the center of bugnet arc. This is the distance from the top of ridgeline to center of hammock. You really need to add some to this measurement to close down the gap at top when laying asym which pulls the hammock side further out.
I know that looking at the finished hammock it looks like the curved edge is sewn to the hammock but the straight edge is against hammock. When the hammock and bugnet are laid flat it looks like a football with the ends cut off.
Adding to the bugnet shape as represented in the red area of the diagram shapes the netting for an asym lay. It will keep the net closer to the ridgeline where your head and feet push the hammock out further.
Hope that helps.
P.S. Edit to add more info
This is how I actually made the pattern for the first one.
Need to know length of hammock base material. Mine was 120"
Need to know length of ridge line Mine was about 101"
Put 2 push pins on a wall the distance of the ridgeline 101" These need to be level between the 2 pins
Mark out 120" (length of hammock body) on a piece of cord. Attach the cord between the push pins at the marks for the 120". This should leave a curve made of cord that represents the hammock.
I put some poster board on the wall behind the cord forming the curve. You only have to put this behind 1/2 of the curve to make a pattern
I measured from the floor up to the push pins. I then marked the poster board at the same height in several places. Put a straight edge on these marks and draw a line that will represent the ridgeline on the pattern.
I then traced the curve of the cord representing the hammock onto the poster board. Again you only have to go half way to make a pattern.
For my hammock it ended up being about 24" at the longest point betwen ridgeline and hammock curve.
You will sew the straight edge of this pattern to the hammock. It seems backwards but this is what makes it work.
The pattern created this way is the MINIMUM amount needed to allow the bugnet to pull all the way down. I suggest adding to the pattern as pictured in the red part of the diagram.
Refining the shape of the bugnet based on how you intend to make the top cover etc is up to you. There is no set way. If you make the pattern like this and make a top like in the video you will end up with what is featured in the video.
03-05-2011, 18:18
Shug
That is a terrific idea. Another option in the bug war.
You got a good n' smart mind Hangout!!!!!
Shug
03-05-2011, 19:13
wwk10
1 Attachment(s)
Hangnout,
I now see everything I asked was in your original illustration.
The process of drawing helps me visualize.
I revised my illustration based on your comments.
The difference in mine and yours is there is no canopy.
One side is longer and drapes over the shock cord of the shorter side.
Items in pockets can help weigh down the longer side.
The longer side can be square instead of curved like the short side with the shock cord channel.
03-05-2011, 19:38
hangnout
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwk10
Hangnout,
I now see everything I asked was in your original illustration.
The process of drawing helps me visualize.
I revised my illustration based on your comments.
The difference in mine and yours is there is no canopy.
One side is longer and drapes over the shock cord of the shorter side.
Items in pockets can help weigh down the longer side.
The longer side can be square instead of curved like the short side with the shock cord channel.
Keep the ideas and input coming. I like the flap idea a lot. I also went back and edited my last post to give more details instructions on how I made the orginal pattern