I previously posted a chart on here and at BPL- mainly for discussion. I noticed a few folks using it already though!
I have attached an updated chart to reflect some of the discussion and info shared here and at BPL on the topic.
This chart is not meant to be a "FACT", but something that we can all use to tinker and discuss. It can be updated and adjusted. Many people have opinions either way, and some of the science falls apart a bit- this chart is my best guess and blending of all these items. Unfortunately, any real "Experts" work for someone and consider their knowledge proprietary. So this is a MYOG best guess, and technically nothing more than my opinion.
REVISED-
Updates based upon feedback-
This chart includes a wider range of temperature sleepers- Hot, Warm, Cool, Cold, and a light attempt to relate them to EN ratings.
Down Overstuff was increased to 30%, as this is the most typical number used and more relevant to MYOG users.
Some mathematical clarification and corrections.
Other updated information.
Included an APEX chart from Enlightened Equipment.
A second page showing down plus baffle weight included for more accurate comparison, including a "break point"
Bottom line-
Summer and light shoulder- APEX or PL (if you are willing)
Shoulder season- choose carefully (Cost, Weight, Compression) The only one of these in favor of synthetic is Cost- Down is superior otherwise.
Winter- Stick with Down.
Some things to note- (Mostly opinion, informed or not)
Primaloft-
PL Silver is suitable for base camp/car camp situations in my opinion, due to it's lower cost it is a good choice for those on a budget. I have included the CLO value for reference for those purposes, however for any gear that must be compacted or carried it is not a good choice.
If you want to make a project with more than 3oz or 4oz batts of PL Gold, do not switch to Silver, but use multiple layers of Gold.
Primaloft Gold has higher CLO values than APEX- ON PAPER, actual realization of this higher CLO, especially considering the recommended quilting needed is not proven. PL GOLD is an excellent choice for apparel, it was discussed here and on this site for experimentation in quilts.
If you are not willing to accept the possibility that your project will fail, wear prematurely, or not perform as planned then DO NOT use PL products in quilts or sleeping bags.
APEX (Climbashield)-
This is a proven synthetic insulation and generally agreed to be the best synthetic available to the MYOG user at this time. If you are looking to make your first project or only one project you should stick with APEX.
The weird factor- experience varies wildly with APEX. It is hard to break it down or find good values for the material. It also comes in a "High Loft" variety that has a lower CLO value and different performance not covered here. My personal opinion is that APEX is often over compressed leading to damage and degradation of the fill. In addition, it is commonly used by people of vastly different experience, craftsmanship, and uses in the MYOG community. You will note that Enlightened Equipment's ratings seem to "fall off" as far as the performance of Apex as it gets thicker. I have seen other's do this as well. I think it is a good caution to carefully consider high amounts of synthetic fill much past one layer for this reason as well. If nothing else, the thicker it is, the more likely you are to compress it too much and damage it.
DOWN VS SYNTHETIC-
Down is lighter than synthetic. It compresses better and lasts longer. With the introduction of water repellent down, it is the superior fill by far.
However, in certain low fill applications, it requires smaller, tightly spaced baffles to perform.
The time and complexity to achieve this can be prohibitive for MYOG.
In addition, the weight of these materials (baffles) causes Down to be heavier than synthetic in nearly all summer, and some 3 season projects.
Synthetic is also cheaper.
WEIGHT-
See the chart, if weight is your primary concern you will see the "break point" where synthetics construction advantages give way to down.
COST-
Much past 4CLO, or two layers of APEX/PL, packability and other concerns may make synthetic prohibitive. Around this level the cost savings for the MYOG person may not be worth the project you create. Synthetic will always be cheaper, but doing much past 6-8 OZ per sq yd of synthetic will result in a bag or quilt very difficult if not impossible to pack.
COMPRESSION-
Do not over compress synthetic, you can loose up to 25% of the insulation value PERMANANTLY in doing this. Take into consideration how you will pack when making a choice. PL is less affected by this, but requires proper quilting so it won't degrade or shift.
My personal experience- there is little difference in single layers of synthetic and their down equivalent in regards to packing. In the warmer temps you have more room in general as well.
Once you tip to double layers of Apex (past 5.0oz) not only is the weight lower, but you can take advantage of Down's compression.
Finally- durability-
I am personally willing to down grade, shelf, or pass off to summer car camping friends my APEX quilts after a hard season or two. I abuse them and use them at their limit and accept that this will damage them. I don't advocate disposable gear, but accept it and find a home for these pieces. I also make them myself, so replacement costs are not horrendous. You can also recycle the shell materials for your next project as well if you are willing- or turn the scrap into stuff sacks or other items. After 200+ nights you will see a decrease in performance of 10-15 degrees in APEX. This can be extended with excellent care and loose packing- but one of the reasons to choose synthetic is that you can abuse it.
That said- if you want to make or purchase an item that will last you a long time- Down is the better choice.
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Originally Posted by genixia
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