The other accordion: can this let cold air leak in past our UQs?

[BillyBob58]

Usually, I have not used my UQs with non-bridge hammocks. Though I did use my MW4 on a WBBB one 18F night and did just fine, after some set up hassle. And my son has used my old CS Yeti on a Claytor his first week in a hammock and later on a WBBB and done great. But generally speaking, for whatever reasons, I have only used my UQs on bridge hammocks where set up is always easy ( unless a full length might be slightly too long) and always seems to work great.

When I use non-bridges like my Claytor or Speer I just seem to gravitate towards a PeaPod, or with my HH, an HH Super Shelter. These have worked for me with almost zero hassle every single time. Also while the HHSS's results seems to depend on who you ask(some love it, some hate it), I have yet to see a thread(that I recall) where anyone complained of being cold in a PeaPod, if they accounted for the well known issues of that design, especially with wide deep hammocks. And some of our minus 40F warriors have taken to home rigged pods. YMMV of course.

But as I have been posting on another thread where a hammock bro is getting a cold butt with his full length UQ on a zip HH, and none of our usual advice seems to have been much help yet, I decided to hang up my Claytor and try one of my JRB MWs on it(MW3 convertible in full length mode). No one was at home to help me out with it, so I had to just kind of guess on the foot end. (and I had to fight the temptation to just grab a bridge!) No way I can really see how that is working out on the foot end, just followed the directions as best I could. I have only been able to test it so far in the mid 30s to low 50s, but I have certainly been warm enough. And these were the temps the fellow was unable to be warm at, so I'm still not sure what the problem might be. I can't speak for colder temps but they are on the way.

But I was reminded of something that I have noticed and wondered about many times. Those pleats or ridges or whatever you might call them, that I always have to various degrees in gathered hammocks. The accordion effect on UQs which have surround, channel suspensions has been discussed last couple of years. People have come up with mods to compensate for this problem. Also, AHE discusses creases caused by having the drawstrings too tight, in the ends of the UQ in their Jarbidge installation video.
But, there is also an accordion effect on the hammocks themselves, in the leg area. Where all of these ridges appear, kind of like squeezing an accordion. And to me it always looks like big old channels that cold air could sink right past the edge of an UQ. Like in these pictures, first ones from the inside then out:









These funnels might also be a passage for cold air under neath the TQ as well as an UQ. Look how different it looks on abridge hammock. Just a smooth, flat layer of nylon and it's the same on the inside:








I have often questioned if this was at least one factor why I found it so easy and consistent to get warm using an UQ on a bridge. As well as a Pea Pod which simply encloses the entire hammock ridges and all, particularly with shorter hammocks. Even the HHSS encloses the hammock ends at least with the nylon of it's UC and over cover, which might slow down air flow like a sock. Maybe it even helps explain why wrapping a jacket over the hammock/UQ ends seems to work so spectacularly? Yes, you get more loft over your feet, but it also encircles those ridges, (or pleats?).

What do Y'all think? Am I nuts, or do you think these creases(maybe that is the correct term?) could be highways for cold air to travel on? Could this be a possible reason for sometimes bad results when everything seems perfect? If it is, what can be done?

While I'm here asking questions, what do Y'all think of doing this as a quick, easy no sew way to keep an UQ closer to the hammock in the leg area? Didn't seem to hurt the warmth at least. Maybe it helps?



Thanks for your thoughts! And here comes the Uber cold! I hope we all manage to do some good testing or set new PBs!

Bill

[gargoyle]

Yes the shockcord trick works.
Anything that snugs the quilt up helps. Shug added a sc that clips to his rl. Any of the 4 season quilts usually need extra uumph to keep them snug. Either the vendor offers larger sc or you diy.

For your test/accordian..whats in the hammock? A couple stuff sacks?

If so, find something that better represents your shoulder/body width. I use a few large pillows to spread out the fabric of the hammock and then add a case or two of pop cans or the like, to add weight.

[BillyBob58]

Yes the shockcord trick works.
Anything that snugs the quilt up helps. Shug added a sc that clips to his rl. Any of the 4 season quilts usually need extra uumph to keep them snug. Either the vendor offers larger sc or you diy.

For your test/accordian..whats in the hammock? A couple stuff sacks?

If so, find something that better represents your shoulder/body width. I use a few large pillows to spread out the fabric of the hammock and then add a case or two of pop cans or the like, to add weight.

In the first pic of the HHDJ, I am in the hammock. On the pictures taken today of the Claytor, nothing is in the hammock. But, here is are pictures of the same hammock with me in it, not much difference in the creases maybe even worse.



And here is a HH Safari:


So, pretty common. Sometimes I can smooth these out a bit but I think they always come back. Compared to a bridge:


Do you think these creases and the spaces/tunnels that form between them, would funnel cold air? Sure looks like they would to me. But maybe looks can deceive and it amounts to nothing?

If I was a designer, and knew a way to test this, I would. And if I verified that it could decrease warmth, I think I would design a quilt that acted like a pod at least on the end. Or something.

[hanginyaker]

i think if you had enough loft you could suspend the UQ from the bottom a little to fill in the creases. I was thinking may add a channel suspension and hang a bungy cargo net from the bottom to see if that helps but this is getting a little ridiculous if i was selling UQ's i would have done all kinds of testing you think this sort of testing would have been done to death. A temp rating on an UQ has to take into account not only the insulation but the suspension system as well. My 2 cents. Come to think of it when my UQP comes in that might be just enough.

[BillyBob58]

i think if you had enough loft you could suspend the UQ from the bottom a little to fill in the creases. I was thinking may add a channel suspension and hang a bungy cargo net from the bottom to see if that helps but this is getting a little ridiculous if i was selling UQ's i would have done all kinds of testing you think this sort of testing would have been done to death. A temp rating on an UQ has to take into account not only the insulation but the suspension system as well. My 2 cents.

Hi HY,
I was thinking of you when I hung my UQ on my Claytor Non-bridge, which I have never done before. I always put that UQ on a bridge, either in full length(it is a discontinued convertible model) mode(works great) or in short mode(mid thigh) where, if possible, it works even better.(I think things get trickier with full length UQs, more to go wrong). But to see if I could come up with any ideas for your situation, I hung it on a non-bridge. And I noticed again the potential problems not so much with the quilt itself, but with those non-bridge hammock creases. Though I am not sure the creases are an actual problem, I am also not sure "if you had enough loft you could suspend the UQ from the bottom a little to fill in the creases". I'm not sure pulling the UQ tightly up against the bottom of the hammock will fill those creases. Maybe. Certainly I have had warmer results by adjusting a dif cut UQ even tighter against my back than it already was. Maybe that fills the creases or manages to flatten them. but, when tightening the ends too much, other problems arise.

Did you try some shockcord yet side to side or over a ridgeline like I show in one of the above pictures? Any luck?

I can understand where you feel things are getting ridiculous. But I imagine the designers have indeed done every known experiment and testing, but it is just a tough nut to crack. Suspending something from the bottom of a hammock , to be used as people lay diagonally across the hammock, and to get this accomplished with no leaks or compression of the down is obviously quite tricky. But they keep working on them, and producing them despite many threads like your cold butt thread, and I can think of a couple of reasons why.

1: Some folks, maybe most, seem to do great after a little learning curve, and some do great right off the bat. Which makes me doubtful about these creases or anything else (like various drafts or leaks or too much compression)being an insurmountable problem. Some guys have even done fine with the original UQs that did not have a differential cut so you had to be real careful to make sure you did not over tighten it. So while on the one hand there are a whole lot of threads re: problems like you have started, there are also plenty of others who love their UQs and would never go back. ( or TQs, which can have their own set of challenges)
2: These down UQs ( or sometimes Climashield) just seem to be what the folks want, so the producers give them to us, and do their best to come up with a suspension that will always work for every one. But take me for example: I have long advocated a Pea Pod approach as a bombproof way of being warm in a hammock, making both a better TQ and UQ, even with no dif cut. And indeed, if you search HF for complaint threads of folks being cold in a PeaPod, I think you will find very few results, if any. Why? Any of these draft related UQ/TQ problems do not exist with a PeaPod.

Is cold air sinking down some side gap in your UQ and getting under your back? Can't happen with a Speer Pea Pod because the side of the pod comes up and over the edge of the hammock and hangs down into the hammock. And maybe even right on to your torso if the hammock is not to deep/wide, or even if deep/wide if the pod is big enough(like a Polar Pod).
Are creases a problem or some gap on the end? Not with a pod which completely encircles both ends and cinches down closed. Or if not quite long enough to go 100% over the end, I just cinch it down tight enough to close any creases.

Having trouble with your shock cord suspension, can't figure out if it is at the right angles or tight enough or too tight, or suspect that it sags during a cold night? Who cares, no shock cord on a Pea Pod. Just draw the nylon cords on the end up tight enough so that the down just barely contacts your back after you lay down and close the top full length Velcro. Done! The closed full length Velcro will keep it supported on top, and the nylon cords on the end will keep it from doing an accordion act. You may have some gaps to fill on top or bottom- maybe on purpose because you hang it loose intending to add insulation/clothing to make it even warmer/thicker. That is the only problem I ever found, which only meant that using it by itself it would not be as warm as rated ON TOP only. But once I filled any gaps it was then warmer than rated, especially with narrow/shallow hammocks.

I still think all of the above is valid, and have said so here for quite a few years. You can find my original test of a Speer Pea Pod(from 07?) in the review forum. I never had that thing fail me even for a second. No drafts, and full head protection! But even though a pod does not weigh much more(if any) than a similarly rated TQ + UQ, nor does it cost more, how many HF guys have ever bought a Pea Pod? 1%? I don't know who TTTG sells these things to, I have seen dang few written about- good or bad- at HF. So, TQs and UQs is what people want so that's what our guys give us. But, they may also believe it is a superior approach, admittedly. And it works out fine for most of us, even if we have quite a learning curve at first.

So don't give up! You can figure out what is wrong. If one of us could be there with you, we could probably spot the problem quickly. If you just can't figure out or just get sick of trying, there are always pads or Pea Pods(if you can get the net completely out of the way) or bridge hammocks. Do you think those creases could be causing you any problems?

[signguy]

As a noob I was wondering if an UQ protector would remedy any draft from traveling down the ridges-
My brain tells me the ridges don't travel that far under the hammock before they disappear due to the loading of the hammock. Also, you get more spread of the hammock material and less ridges the further you move away from the gather.
In any event- seems the loft of the UQ stops most of the draft in most situations but I see an UQP as an added barrier if I understand things correctly.

[MAD777]

Some underquilt have a baffle chamber running crosswise at the foot end, effectively sealing off those accordian wrinkles.

[BillyBob58]

As a noob I was wondering if an UQ protector would remedy any draft from traveling down the ridges-
My brain tells me the ridges don't travel that far under the hammock before they disappear due to the loading of the hammock. Also, you get more spread of the hammock material and less ridges the further you move away from the gather.
In any event- seems the loft of the UQ stops most of the draft in most situations but I see an UQP as an added barrier if I understand things correctly.

Good points about the creases getting flattened out above the butt end and on up towards the head. (I'm not really sure what is going on above my head up to the gather- I can't see and I have not looked when some one else is in it) But, I think the creases go right on down to the butt at least, and maybe continue on the sides a little further than that. So if cold air can travel down them, it could get up under your legs for sure and maybe to your butt.

Some underquilt have a baffle chamber running crosswise at the foot end, effectively sealing off those accordian wrinkles.

Hopefully, but do they actually protrude up into the deepest part of the crease? My CS Yeti has small crosswise draft tubes, guess I need to check it out. But what about the creases inside the hammock, that run up under the legs and TQ? Does the down of a TQ drape down into the creases? What about Climashield? I don't know.

Also, keep in mind I an not even sure this is a significant problem. It's just something I have been eyeballing for a few years and thinking "that does not look helpful". But trying to gather info for Hanginyaker's other thread about a cold butt with an MW3( a rare report for that UQ seems to me), I have hung the MW3 on my Claytor and could not help but notice a potential problem. Still, I hung out for a nap yesterday mid 30s to i 40s and this morning(admittedly not all night) at 32F, low 20s wind chill with no tarp. I was mostly sheltered from the wind on my back porch but a gust of wind would occasionally get to me and rock the hammock. I had on my cotton PJs, no socks, a JRB down hood and a JRB No Sniveler(actually, Sierra Sniv). So this was getting pretty close to the rating of both quilts. And not in a bridge as I normally prefer, and creases galore.

When the wind would hit me I would feel it, and probably could not make it all night even though it was not terribly cold. But when ever the wind was still or slight breeze, I'd have to say I was fine. The longer I laid there the more snug I felt. (BTW, the quilts had been hung out all night so it took a few minutes to warm them up.) I can't say that my butt ever felt warm but it certainly was not cold, would not keep me awake. The longer I lay there the more I would feel the occasional toast warm feeling on my back, until a big gust would blow some of the warmth away. My gut feeling was I would be at least OK all night, especially with better wind protection. Remember I had none of the warm layers I would normally sleep in on a winter trip. And my feet were fine with no socks, just the UQ/TQ, creases or not. (think I will copy this part over to hanginyaker's thread)

So does it really matter? Seems like these quilts are at least getting close to their ratings and with good wind protection and normal layers might exceed their ratings, even on a Claytor. Or, maybe if they do make a difference, it's not a lot? Maybe if I go out there and hang this UQ under my JRB BMBH, it will be warmer due to no creases, but not a lot? I need to get the energy to go swap that out and see. But even if there is a slight dif, it might be hard to tell.

This is sort of like that side gap that usually shows up when I put an MWUQ or my Yeti UQ on my JRB Bridge hammocks. Usually there is a large or a small gap. I have often used shock cord to close this gap, or with a short UQ cross over the suspension at the foot which usually does the job. I just don't like the looks of that gap. But, I can't say I have actually ever been cold when I ignored it, so maybe it is irrelevant?

I'd still hope to hear some additional opinions from the many very experienced here as to if you think this could actually be a problem, if even a little. Or not. Maybe it at least makes a 5* dif, or maybe none at all. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

[Cali]

I use an UQP with my gathered end hammocks to keep that breeze out and help my UQ do its job. I do find without the UQP, sometimes a breeze will seep in and give me a little bit of a chill.

[OutandBack]

Hi BB happy new year.
I can see by your example picts that those wrinkles could let a cold draft in or some warm air out.
I am constanty scratching my head as to why so many peeps have issues getting their UQ's adjusted correctly.

It's such a simple thing to hook an UQ shockcord over each end of the hammock. Adjust it for a 9,10,or11 ft hammock should be all that is needed.



Yet we see posts weekly that this is not the case.

My UQ's are simple rectangles, diff cut, with 1 shockcord channel suspension, no draft tubes but draft shockcords and they fit like a glove on any hammock I own. Gathered or bridge.
It's a head scratcher.