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  1. #21
    Senior Member Mustardman's Avatar
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    I still think you would need MORE bottom insulation at the same temperature in the hammock - you're off the ground and have the wind whipping underneath you and robbing your heat. I've seen those ultralight guys take some crazy thin CCF pretty cold, and there's no way I'd try the same setups in a hammock.

  2. #22
    how cold is "pretty cold" and how thin is "crazy thin"???

    there is a difference between air temp and ground temp. air temp is often colder than ground temp, but i suppose it could just as easily be the other way around. wind could be totally blocked by an undercover/weathershield or even a winter tarp the same as by a bivy sac, but now you're getting into non-insulation differences.

    ccf itself is a vapor barrier so i'm not sure if you can lose heat through ccf via convection?wind? because of the nature of the insulation itself. a ccf that insualtes well against 15 deg ground should insulate just as well against 15 deg air. maybe not, all the different ways heat can be lost still often confuses me.
    Last edited by warbonnetguy; 09-04-2009 at 13:23.

  3. #23
    Senior Member animalcontrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustardman View Post
    I still think you would need MORE bottom insulation at the same temperature in the hammock - you're off the ground and have the wind whipping underneath you and robbing your heat. I've seen those ultralight guys take some crazy thin CCF pretty cold, and there's no way I'd try the same setups in a hammock.
    completely subjective arguement...
    Your point above is only true if your pushing the limits of the insulation (lets say pads because no ground dwellers are using UQs )
    so, if a ground dweller is using a 2/3 length gg ccf pad for 3 season insulation, that same pad will work in your hammock. Might that pad have a 5*F lower limit on the ground?...debatable, but why? What timeline would we be debating? days, maybe a week of the calendar? After that, both set ups would require the next lower setting and are equal (in under insulation) again.
    The same guy who pushes the envelope on the ground, would push it in a hammock. And his results are unique to him.
    I've done both (not as extensively in my hammock because I love my UQs) and IMO, there is not much difference. But the only time that there might be a difference is a very small window
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    The difference is that a 1/8" pad in a hammock is much more comfortable than a 1/8" pad on the ground, unless you're on duff.

    And a CCF pad can lose heat to convection. But I think the ground temp is rarely as cold as the air temp once it's sub-freezing and/or snow-covered.

    But I agree with Mustardman on this - a torso pad and TQ on the ground will always be lighter than a torso pad and TQ plus hammock. So in theory the ground weights win. But in reality not many people actually use those kinds of setups.
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  5. #25
    ok, so the ccf would lose heat to convection in a hammock, but would instead lose it to conduction on the ground.

    i agree that ground temp in winter would usually be higher than the lowest air temp.

    sure, the ground setup can be lighter b/c what's lighter than a bivy sac?, but speaking in terms of "insulation only" i'd say they're probably pretty close. and a tq on the ground in winter seems hardcore, whereas in a hammock it's the most comfortable and convenient option.

    even if the hammock needs slightly more weight in bottom insulation, is it offset by a lighter tq than a ground sleeper will have? i could see saving at least a couple oz on the tq. how much does an extra 1/8" of ccf weigh for a torso pad? a couple oz?

    if you look at it from a different perspective, the hammock setup would probably be lighter for most folks since you'd be compareing sleeping bag+air pad to tq and uq or ccf
    Last edited by warbonnetguy; 09-04-2009 at 13:51.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy View Post
    if you look at it from a different perspective, the hammock setup would probably be lighter for most folks since you'd be compareing sleeping bag+air pad to tq and uq or ccf
    http://www.tothewoods.net/HammockGroundWeights.html

    It's a little dated now, but it shows real-world systems that people actually use. Hammock setups were generally a bit heavier than comparable ground setups, but not always. Just depends on the person and what level of comfort they want.

    What all this tells me is that considered by itself, system weights are close enough that people tend to concentrate on more distinguishing features than weight...like comfort and convenience. So while the weight debate is interesting, it's really only academic...because it's not important enough that people actually base their hammock vs ground decision on it.

    Edit - Yes, a ground pad would lose heat from conduction. But this conductive loss isn't as fast as convective loss in a hammock when the wind is blowing.
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Mustardman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
    So while the weight debate is interesting, it's really only academic...because it's not important enough that people actually base their hammock vs ground decision on it.
    While certainly true for us, I've ran into more than one self-professed ultralight hiker who scoffed at hammocks because, in their eyes, there's no way you could get a hammock anywhere near as light as their setups. Now whether that's a distinction due to prejudice or ignorance or actual experience and number crunching, we'll never know. Too bad we don't have a tent guy who frequents these forums to harass us..


    For ME, the issue IS completely academic - I'd rather double the weight of a ground setup and get the kind of comfortable night's sleep I get in a hammock. Which hurts your back more - carrying an extra pound or two, or sleeping on the ground for a week?


    From a thermodynamics standpoint, though, I stand by my statement - the amount of insulation required on the ground is theoretically less than that needed for a hammock. Now whether most people will ACTUALLY use less, that's a whole different story...

  8. #28
    i agree, if you're that concerned about weight you're going to be sleeping in a bivy or under a tiny tarp, folks consider hammocks because they are willing to carry more weight for more comfort (in the case of someone switching from a ultralight ground setup), but most of the added weight is from the non insulation items such as hammock, suspension, tarp etc. i'd be surprised if a true ultralight hammocker (using ccf pad for bottom insulation) carried more than a couple oz more total bottom insulation, and i still say a minimalist hammocker will have a lighter tq than a minimalist ground sleeper which should offset some of the difference in bottom insulation which i doubt is that much to begin with, especially if you're only talking about torso pads

    many here love to carry features that make things more comfortable and convenient (like adj webbing suspensions, larger dimension hammocks, underquilts as opposed to ccf, larger tarps ect.) i'd say there are a high percentage of hammockers here who value comfort and features at least as high if not higher than total weight. there are also those who are mainly concerned about weight (just not enough to leave their hammock at home)
    Last edited by warbonnetguy; 09-04-2009 at 14:30.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustardman View Post
    While certainly true for us, I've ran into more than one self-professed ultralight hiker who scoffed at hammocks because, in their eyes, there's no way you could get a hammock anywhere near as light as their setups. Now whether that's a distinction due to prejudice or ignorance or actual experience and number crunching, we'll never know.
    True. I should have said hammockers don't base it on weight. I think that's one of the things that draws them to hammocks in the first place, but once they crunch some numbers they see that it's about the same.

    Or I could have said that not "many people" base this decision on weight. There are a few out there who do...I bet the number is less than 1% who stay away from hammock simply b/c they've crunched the numbers. Other than that, I think it's that they assume it's heavier b/c it has "extra parts" they haven't used before. Simpler has to be lighter, right? And as we discussed, in theory it is...but people don't hike with theory!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustardman View Post
    From a thermodynamics standpoint, though, I stand by my statement - the amount of insulation required on the ground is theoretically less than that needed for a hammock. Now whether most people will ACTUALLY use less, that's a whole different story...
    I agree with that. Conductive loss to the ground is slower than convective loss in a hammock in most circumstances. I'm sure you could name some exceptions...like when the wind is zero and the air temp is higher than the ground temp. Again, that's theory...when is the wind actually zero, especially when you're gently swaying in a hammock? So in reality, I'd agree with you...a hammocker generally requires more bottom insulation than a ground dweller.

    But WBG's point is worth considering...hammockers need less top insulation for a given warmth b/c the TQ can be narrower. Is that loss on top equal to the gain on bottom? I bet it could be in some cases...so it's possible that the weights could equal out, in theory and in reality.
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyCamper View Post
    I agree. I wouldn't want the moderators to move any threads into a lightweight forum from another forum. But I do think the lightweighters would take care of the forum themselves by posting something like . . .

    "Hey, I was reading through the 1,436 posts in the whoopie sling thread and someone posted about this ultralight weight cord called Helium Cord that I'm gonna use on my tarp. It's the lightest I've seen. Anyone else know of something like Helium Cord that doesn't cost $2 per foot?"

    I'm just sayin' . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyCamper View Post
    If you are wondering what would go into an lightweight forum . . I guess something like this could be debated there. (I think I'm outnumbered and being ignored.)
    Yes you seem to be mostly outnumbered and ignored, except I think you are absolutely right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
    So while the weight debate is interesting, it's really only academic...
    True! Nobody here wants to sleep on the ground regardless of how much lighter it gets. Having established that, discussing weight is not meaningless. Besides, maybe some of us are academics and enjoy theory.
    You don't have to be Ed Speer to say that you love hammocks, and you don't have to be an professional extreme ultralighter to enjoy saving some ounces. Even within hammock camping there are endless combinations with different weight, warmth per weight, versatility per weight and so on. I'm sure a lot of it will be discussed all over the forum anyway, but if there's never a main focus on weight, there won't be as many good questions and answers about weight either.

    It's a stable topic that I'm sure will always interest some people. As HappyCamper said in the quote above, the weight enthusiasts will easily come up with stuff to fill such a forum on their own, without any need to move old threads or drag everyone else into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
    So while the weight debate is interesting...
    The weight debate is interesting. Point made.

    Quote Originally Posted by animalcontrol View Post
    As you spend more time here, you'll start picking out the people who fit your scope. Or even just ask for gram weenies!
    Once you find them, ask away!
    And when they find each other, where are they supposed to exchange ideas? Private messages? In everyone else's threads about other topics? In a ultralight forum without real hammock nerds, as hammock camping apparently isn't light enough?

    I'm not desperate for a lightweight hammock forum, I'm just enjoying the debate for its own sake! I like comfort AND hammocks AND rhetoric/making points just for fun AND hairsplitting... Where do I belong?

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