My first deep winter hang: The case for natural fibers and my own lessons learned

[nothermark]

Good report! Thanks! Looked like a good learning experience. I think you will find a limit to how much you can warm up your microclimate. Insulation is part of it but so is surface area and the need for some ventilation. As they say say, breathing is good. ;-)

You will dump somewhere around a quart of water into the shelter no matter what you do. It has to go somewhere. If you are getting it on the inside of your tarp you are successfully getting it out of the sock so it is not ending up in your bedding. That is the ideal. From the sound of things you had as close to ideal as one can expect.

[Mickey.223]

Thanks for publishing your experience in a concise, readable way. Great lessons learned - especially about the natural fabrics and down insulation. I picked up a cotton parka that I've come to really love in the deep cold. Worn over some wool layers you experience no internal frost buildup no matter your level of exertion. Pretty amazing.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/produ...arka?a=1781357

Thanks for the positive feedback and the link to the cotton parka. I'm definitely going to check that out!

Cheers,
Mickey

[Mickey.223]

Good report! Thanks! Looked like a good learning experience. I think you will find a limit to how much you can warm up your microclimate. Insulation is part of it but so is surface area and the need for some ventilation. As they say say, breathing is good. ;-)

You will dump somewhere around a quart of water into the shelter no matter what you do. It has to go somewhere. If you are getting it on the inside of your tarp you are successfully getting it out of the sock so it is not ending up in your bedding. That is the ideal. From the sound of things you had as close to ideal as one can expect.

Thanks Nothermark. Yeah, the problem I had was that there was so much surface area of my hammock exposed, that it was almost unmanageable. I think if it is around 90% encapsulated within a Pea Pod, it will cut down on the problem I experienced with my body heat being lost to conduction of energy to the cold (exposed) hammock material upon casual contact due to restlessness.

The hammock sock I had made by MacEntyre for 3 season did a great job considering the material. I think that is inherent to and a testament of his design...the fact that it still vented plenty of vapor while producing a noticeable difference in internal vs. external temperatures. His Dutch SEEP always creates about a 2-3" gap at the ridgeline (at least on mine) that ensures good venting. I just feel that it would have been even more effective had it been a canvas sock.

I think changing my tarp configuration will also help, as it will allow the dryer air to pull the moisture away from the sock. Assuming I pitch it correctly against the wind, I won't have to worry too much about the effects of convection because it will be working for me rather than against me at that point and layer of sleep system. I also think the addition of a canvas hot tent for extreme temperatures will help considerably too. If I can run a stove and heat the inside to help hasten the drying of anything that does get damp, it will be that much better. I can also achieve the same warming properties of a fire, but with far less fuel consumption. We burned copious amounts of wood, just to be marginally warm that night. We did more heating of the outdoors than we did our own bodies. At least those are my theories...which I look forward to confirming or disproving!

Cheers,
Mickey

[cougarmeat]

Mickey,
I don't think you want to be exposed to the night sky - it will suck the heat. So you may want your tarp overhead. But there have been posts that recommend connecting it higher than "storm conditions" to allow for that venting air flow.

But no way of getting around it, -22F is -22F with all the "terms and conditions" that implies.

Certain shelters have their comfort zone range and aside from the novelty of working outside that norm, one might consider transferring to the shelter style for that particular range.

Would I camp in my hammock at -22F. Or course! - at least once. But if I were going to be out multiple days, especially in the same location. I'd build and igloo.

My eyebrow does raise when you talk about cotton clothing. I wear cotton pj's as often as I can (not on long expeditions - in those cases I go to silk) because I don't like nylon on my skin and it's easier to wash pj's than sleeping bags or hammocks. The "cotton kills" phrase is meant for outer gear or clothing that might get wet. And it's the "might get wet" and condensation battle you are fighting that gives me pause.

I really, really liked that you understood - it doesn't cost anything to bring it in the truck. I'm guessing that if you had to bail, you'll have a warm shelter set up in there.

But one winter, before there was a social term "homeless" (in my mind, I just didn't have enough money for rent; that was all), I had to live in my station wagon. I parked near a community recreation center and each morning, got up, went inside and paid a dollar to shower and shave. But I notice I had to scrape the station wagon windows from the inside. And I learned that sleeping bags don't have any warmth. I have to create the warmth, the sleeping bag just holds it. And I was only dealing with temps between 15 and 20 degrees.

So your "comfortable at -22F" will provide you with lots of experimenting.

I've experienced having to rewarm areas of the hammock if I a shift a little. I'm guessing a light fleece blanket (throw) as a base would help. But it would require some button holes and attachments to keep in from bunching up.

Have fun.

[Mickey.223]

Mickey,
I don't think you want to be exposed to the night sky - it will suck the heat. So you may want your tarp overhead. But there have been posts that recommend connecting it higher than "storm conditions" to allow for that venting air flow.

But no way of getting around it, -22F is -22F with all the "terms and conditions" that implies.

Certain shelters have their comfort zone range and aside from the novelty of working outside that norm, one might consider transferring to the shelter style for that particular range.

Would I camp in my hammock at -22F. Or course! - at least once. But if I were going to be out multiple days, especially in the same location. I'd build and igloo.

My eyebrow does raise when you talk about cotton clothing. I wear cotton pj's as often as I can (not on long expeditions - in those cases I go to silk) because I don't like nylon on my skin and it's easier to wash pj's than sleeping bags or hammocks. The "cotton kills" phrase is meant for outer gear or clothing that might get wet. And it's the "might get wet" and condensation battle you are fighting that gives me pause.

I really, really liked that you understood - it doesn't cost anything to bring it in the truck. I'm guessing that if you had to bail, you'll have a warm shelter set up in there.

But one winter, before there was a social term "homeless" (in my mind, I just didn't have enough money for rent; that was all), I had to live in my station wagon. I parked near a community recreation center and each morning, got up, went inside and paid a dollar to shower and shave. But I notice I had to scrape the station wagon windows from the inside. And I learned that sleeping bags don't have any warmth. I have to create the warmth, the sleeping bag just holds it. And I was only dealing with temps between 15 and 20 degrees.

So your "comfortable at -22F" will provide you with lots of experimenting.

I've experienced having to rewarm areas of the hammock if I a shift a little. I'm guessing a light fleece blanket (throw) as a base would help. But it would require some button holes and attachments to keep in from bunching up.

Have fun.

Hi designer,
Thanks for taking the time to reply and for your insight. A couple of things: The exposure at to night sky wasn't an issue for the instructor. In fact, it helped him because he had zero condensation on his tarp in a lean-to configuration. BTW, that's the Intermediate bag from the Militiary Modular Sleep System (MSS) on a sleeping pad, on an emergency blanket. He wore only his wool base layer to bed. My Respect Needle was pegged after I saw his rig in the morning.

KE Setup.JPG

With adequate coverage (insulation) from a Pea Pod, TQ, and Canvas Sock, I think I would be just fine with a tarp in a lean-to or baker hut configuration.

While snow is the "best insulator"; if I were going to be out there for multiple days, I'd take a canvas hot tent. I can heat, cook, and dry clothing all with the same fire, while still being protected from the elements...all without having to leave the shelter. More importantly...what if there isn't any snow?

The use of cotton outer wear is certainly a concern when it gets wet, and is intended for "dry" conditions. The Duck Cotton is for the combination of tight weave (wind blocking) and breathability (permeability). But you also wear layers of wool underneath which retain 80% of it's insulation properties when wet. If it were going to be cold and wet, then I'd have to look at waxed canvas outerwear. Have you read MacEntyre's write up regarding canvas (cotton) and extreme cold? It certainly proved true this past weekend. Although I'd like to test it in a variety of conditions to get a sense of where the margins lay.

I do want to spend a night in my truck as the shelter, to learn the best way to deal with the condensation you mentioned. I think it's an important part of my preparedness continuum. Living in the NE, there's always a chance that you might get stuck on the road and have to live in your vehicle for a day or two. In fact, that happened to a ton of people on I-78 in February of 2006 or 07.

Again, thanks for the feedback and insight. I hope to one day be a well versed and comfortable in my winter hammocking skills as I am in my 3 season skills. Take care and keep the faith.

Cheers,
Mickey

[Doubletime]

I'm thinking one of McEntyres canvas socks might have performed better, I've used mine down to -6F and it breathed well.

[cougarmeat]

There are posts in this or other forum's on making a Hot tarp or shelter by sewing "stove jack" (?) in the nylon tarp - a fireproof rectangle of material with a hole for a stove pipe. But for me, I couldn't sleep knowing there was that much heat near the nylon - especially if the wind were blowing. But canvas is a whole other matter. I have a decades (about 5) old mountain "parka" I keep around. It was made of very tight weave and I'm thinking the design was such that when it got wet, the outer material would swell up an bit - tighten the weave - to protect it interior lining.

For hammocks, I'm in the sock phase. I got there after one very windy night and rainy day and a small tarp. The sock is not waterproof, but it is enough water resistant so I don't worry if there is an occasional blow under the tarp. I was hoping the sock + tarp set up would act like a double wall tent. The vapor would leave the sock and form on the underside of the tarp. But at home I don't have a very good tarp testing area. I can hang the hammock, but though I am outside, it is under a porch roof. So I don't get the full "outdoors" experience.

I did make a pipe stand that I thought was bea-u-ti-ful. Unfortunately, amazing but true, opinions differ and "someone" didn't want to look outside the kitchen window and see all that hardware. I know, it was probably too hard for her to go through the rest of the day having started by looking at so much wonderment. Probably made everything else look drab.

[MnRecurve]

Thanks for sharing your findings...very helpful.

[Mickey.223]

I did make a pipe stand that I thought was bea-u-ti-ful. Unfortunately, amazing but true, opinions differ and "someone" didn't want to look outside the kitchen window and see all that hardware. I know, it was probably too hard for her to go through the rest of the day having started by looking at so much wonderment. Probably made everything else look drab.

This actually made me LOL. Many of them just don't seem to understand. Lucky is the man whose significant other loves all things hammocking as much as he.

[bkrgi]

Great thread and thoughts on dealing with the extreme cold.
I think the hot tent is the way to go as a absolute for cooking, warming, drying etc using the Hammock as your sleep system totally separate...also provides on the spot Plan B . It is the route I am planning to go, possibly with a Seek Outside 4 man Tipi and Ti wood stove.
The canvas sock wins hands down (I have a 12'x9' or so painters tarp that fully drapes the hammock end to end and ridge line to ground) and hang the tarp high. A wool blanket under the canvas may be a further route I would take to improve the inner micro climate and wonder if a wool blanket over the top quilt is a benefit to deal with ones breath...when sealed, so to speak, in a sock. A breath catcher off the ridge line may not be best???? not sure??
This winter on the west coast we have had no extreme cold at all.....lowest temp I have felt this winter is -8c.. which is darn right balmy so hopefully next winter with some 0*f quilts in hand and normal cold to extreme cold temps I can further my testing as you have so nicely done.

Keep up the thoughts, testing and experimentation and a definite vote on the Hot Tent Plan B warming shelter to have in your arsenal