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  1. #11
    Senior Member oldgringo's Avatar
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    This was cut and pasted on another forum I go to. I have no idea what the original source is.

    Modern day adventurers have also been plagued by the problem of moisture accumulation in
    sleeping bags. Twenty days out on the polar ice on his way to the North Pole in 1986, Will
    Steger noted:
    "I hefted my bag and found that it had gained about twenty pounds in
    accumulated ice. The inner layers of insulation were still somewhat dry, but
    the outer layers were frozen mats. We had been finding that a tremendous
    amount of body heat was needed to bring the bags up to a temperature at
    which we could sleep with minimal comfort. Some nights we shivered for
    three or four hours before we dozed off. (Steger 1988) "
    These sleeping bags had been specially made with 5.5 kg of polyester fibrefill and had a total
    loft of 36 cm. They were designed with such a great thickness of insulation to compensate for
    the expected accumulation of ice.
    After 34 days, they tried to dry the bags with stoves in the tent. Steger reported:
    "The effort proved futile. The volume of accumulated frost was now so great
    -- some bags weighed nearly fifty pounds -- that the minimal heat from the
    stoves merely redistributed the moisture rather than driving it from the bags
    (Steger 1988)."
    In 1986, another adventurer was attempting to reach the North Pole. Sir Ranulph Fiennes
    made an attempt on foot, without support. Temperatures ranged from -47°C to -25°C.
    During this man-hauling expedition he used an experimental polyester fibrefill sleeping bag
    (DREO-X). He combined it with a separate waterproof breathable cover and an interior
    vapour barrier. Despite these precautions, his 5.5 kg sleeping bag gained 2 kilograms in
    sixteen nights. However, this amount of water did not make the bag uncomfortably cold or
    noticeably wet (Osczevski 1986).
    His companion used commercial down-filled sleeping bags, with a GoreTex outer shell and
    was often cold. After two weeks, both of these bags appeared to be wet and the filling
    material had become permanently compressed and was frozen into lumps.
    Two years later, in the spring of 1988, a team of Canadian and Soviet skiers crossed the
    Arctic Ocean from Siberia to Ellesmere Island. At first, all thirteen member of the Polar
    Bridge Expedition slept and ate in a single tent. After a couple of nights, two of the
    Canadians moved out to sleep in shelters made of snow. Richard Weber, who had served his
    polar apprenticeship on the Steger expedition, was one of the "outside men". Weber’s
    observations are particularly interesting. He noted on Day 5 that:
    "All of the Soviets' sleeping bags, and indeed everyone's who sleeps in the
    tent, are losing loft; the feathers are getting wet, and the bags are getting
    thinner and thinner."(Weber 1990)
    DRDC Toronto TR 2003-070 3
    Laurie Dexter, an "inside" Canadian noted in his diary after three weeks that:
    "The top of my bag is little more than a few layers of nylon fabric, with fistsized
    or smaller lumps of frozen down scattered along the edges!"(Weber
    1990)
    The sleeping bags that were used in the tent were sodden with water. Weber was disgusted by
    the conditions:
    "It is so horrible in there. Every meal it is the same. We sit down and get
    rained on. Chris [Holloway, the other 'outside man'] wears his GoreTex
    pants to keep dry. This morning I brought my sleeping pad into the tent to sit
    on. It slipped, and I ended up on Yuri's sleeping bag and completely soaked
    my suit right through..." (Weber 1990)
    Later, on Day 38:
    "This evening I inspected Yuri's sleeping bag. It’s quite solid. It consists of
    baffles separating icy lumps of down. There is really no insulation. He
    would probably be better off with a few garbage bags, since they would be
    lighter to carry, and just about as warm."(Weber 1990)
    After a couple of weeks the effect of the different living accommodations on the sleeping bags
    was striking. Those bags that had been used inside the communal tent were wet, thin and cold
    to sleep in. The down had matted and balled, like the down filled sleeping bags used on the
    1986 Fiennes expedition. The sleeping bags that had been used in unheated shelters still
    retained much of their loft and insulation although some balling of the down occurred around
    the head.
    Richard Weber was back on the Arctic Ocean in 1992. The Weber-Malakhov expedition
    reached the vicinity of the North Pole from Ward Hunt Island in Canada, skiing over the ice
    without outside support. Each morning, before lighting the stoves and warming the tent, the
    members of the expedition crawled out of their sleeping bags, dressed, brushed the frost off
    the tent and sleeping bags and then placed the bags outside.
    Weber's sleeping bag was filled with 1.1 kg of high loft down. It had an integral pad
    consisting of a full-length layer of closed cell foam, 1-cm thick, with an additional 5-cm layer
    of open-cell foam under the torso. Even though he used internal and external vapour barriers,
    frost still collected in the outer regions of the sleeping bag. However, because it was never
    allowed to warm up in a heated tent, the ice stayed as fluffy frost. Although the bag became
    heavier, it stayed thick and warm. Weber suspected that the frost might even have made the
    bag warmer, as during the coldest part of the expedition he was able sleep using only a single
    sleeping bag although he carried a second one to fit inside the first (Weber 1992). Weber and
    Malakhov have since made the round trip from Ellesmere Island to the Pole and back again,
    using only those supplies that they had with them when they first left land.
    Dave

    "Loneliness is the poverty of self; solitude is the richness of self."~~~May Sarton

  2. #12
    Senior Member turk's Avatar
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    ive had huge condensation issues on my pods and quilts with both my heated hammock tent (by far the worst) and unheated superfly or JRB hammock hut.
    I am dedicating this entire winter to internal VB testing. I still blame exhaled air turning to frost on the outside of the bags/pod/quilts as the biggest culprit as
    anywhere you are leaking out body heat from your system, is ultimately thawing
    exhaled frost build up. tossing and turning in the night and inadvertent minor compression works all that moisture through the DWR outer shell and gets into the down.

    I also experience some minor condensation issues in my peapod during foggy
    weather and 100% humidity on just about every packrafting trip that I camp
    near the water. Cold nights and quick sunrise over the peaks just creates a huge fog machine out on the water and all that fog off the river soaks all the gear.
    Webhost: www.ehko.info

  3. #13
    Senior Member moski's Avatar
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    Interesting thread !
    Great posts, keep them coming .
    Last edited by moski; 09-19-2009 at 01:57.
    Moski, who no longer feels the Secret Ninja Ski emptiness..............
    B/C he got them now

  4. #14
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Interesting that adding the VBs on the polar expeditions lessened, sometimes significantly, the frozen bag problems but did not eliminate them. It makes you wonder if even waterproof coated fabric still allows some very small amount of insensible perspiration to get through. IOW, still breathable to some miniscule amount. But still enough to cause trouble on a long very cold trip.

    But in the mean time I'm still very interested in the main subject thread: If the air is super wet, is this enough to cause problems with down pod/quilt loft loss even if zero external moisture gets past the tarp? And if it is a concern, is there any way to prevent this on normal trips, like internal or external VBs? I think it would prevent it, but it sure would be a hassle. Not to mention added weight, bulk and expense.

  5. #15
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    OK, Ed has confirmed that there is no DWR on the Pea Pod, though "the tight weave will shed some water". That is rather amazing as I think back to one time with a drip line and tarp mishap during my Pea Pod review, the Pod was exposed to a good bit of water. Including a quite wet spot on the pod that formed under a PUDDLE that formed inside my hammock. But the shell dryed very quickly and there was no loft loss. Also, at least after about an hour at room temp when I finally weighed it, no water weight gain.

    I've had my pod hanging on the back porch all day, planning on leaving it there a day or two in all this rain/humidity to see what happens.

  6. #16
    Crawldaddy's Avatar
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    ok, at least one verdict is in: My PP dry weight is 46oz. (I had Ed add an extra baffle in my PP). I took it down this morn from my back yard (still foggy, messy out). and the scale says... 52oz! ok- so all things being equal, my PP has accumulated 6 ounces of moisture while hanging in the soup for 4 days. I had slept in it the first 3 nights but didnt last night. I really cant tell a loft difference tho, not knowing the actual parameters before I hung it. Shoot man, thats almost a half pound dif! The shell does feel damp to the touch, but visually I cant see any moisture. The down inside feels loose and free. your guess...

  7. #17
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawldaddy View Post
    ok, at least one verdict is in: My PP dry weight is 46oz. (I had Ed add an extra baffle in my PP). I took it down this morn from my back yard (still foggy, messy out). and the scale says... 52oz! ok- so all things being equal, my PP has accumulated 6 ounces of moisture while hanging in the soup for 4 days. I had slept in it the first 3 nights but didnt last night. I really cant tell a loft difference tho, not knowing the actual parameters before I hung it. Shoot man, thats almost a half pound dif! The shell does feel damp to the touch, but visually I cant see any moisture. The down inside feels loose and free. your guess...
    WOW! I don't know if 6 oz is a lot, but that seems like a lot to me, considering: A: no direct moisture exposure B: no really cold temps which might tend to cause condensation of insensible perspiration inside the pod and 3: only 3 nights. That is not a lot of time, really. What if it was 6 days or 30?

    So about 19 oz of down has 6 oz of water in it, though some of that might be in the shell. But I suspect that is enough to effect the loft and warmth. Too bad you have not already taken loft measurements for comparison, that would tell the tale. The thing about the pod is that the down can be moved around so much that loft can vary greatly. Mine runs about 6-7" double layer loft ( about 3.3-3.5" single layer) when I shift some of the down from the ends more towards the center. Maybe more like 3" if I try to keep the down more evenly spread out over the entire pod.

    Is it possible for you to measure the loft before it drys out, if it is not too much trouble?

  8. #18
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    I hope some others will continue to chime in here. This seems to confirm my friends complaints of moisture accumulation even when no rain/snow gets on the shell, even though I had no similar problem.

    How much is from condensation of the users insensible perspiration and how much just from moisture out of the air? If mostly the later, would a good DWR, like the Jacks use on both sides, solve most of the problem? If not, would a separate outer WP shell combined with a VB solve the issue?

  9. #19
    Member I Splice's Avatar
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    I can't speak to long humid spells because I camp in California where it's relatively dry.

    However, I did spend one bad night in my Peapod. About 2 in the morning, we got some amazingly condensing fog, not rain. Heavy condensation on both sides of my tarp and on my Peapod. Water dripping through the Velcro holding my Peapod closed onto me. I couldn't see to try to re-rig my tarp because I couldn't see a thin.

    I thought I'd have to abandon the trip because my Peapod would be soaked.

    But there was no problem. Once I got packed up and off of the mountain - below the fog line, the moisture problem stopped. I did spread my Peapod out in the sun at lunch. The cover was a little damp but the loft seemed unchanged.

    I was pleasantly surprised.

  10. #20
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    the calendaring process to make the fabric downproof will add alot of water resistence.

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