On Hammocks and Patents.

[GrizzlyAdams]

What makes it a structural ridgeline? (please be specific as I'm somewhat new to hammocking)

A line attached to each endpoint of your hammock, so that when the hammock is suspended the distance between the endpoints is fixed to be the length of the structural ridgeline, regardless of height or tension of the lines suspending the hammock.

The figure below is taken (without permission) from Dave Womble's article on structural ridgelines in the January 2006 "Hammock Camping Newsletter" that Ed Speer produces. See http://www.hammockcamping.com/Newsle...06/Jan2006.htm for the whole article.



<donning flame retardant underwear>
With respect to this thread, I believe the technical legal issue about the ridgeline is whether Hennessey's patent claims the concept in every one of its possible manifestations, or only the "embodiments" that are specifically documented in the patent, i.e., the way the HH hammocks implement it, and a couple of other ways that the patent lists. Only a court case will establish whether, for the purposes of the law, a given embodiment is covered by the patent or not. Or whether the patent claims are so broad that they cover pre-existing ideas, and so the patent is invalid.

I just last night read over a preliminary patent prepared by a patent lawyer for an idea and software some colleagues and I have in our professional area. (The purpose of our filing the patent is to establish intellectual property rights for our employer. The objective would be to license its use, not constrain its use.) The language used by the lawyer distinguishes between the idea itself (which is claimed) and any particular means of implementing it. The patent illustrates one way of implementing it, the way we have implemented it, as a sort of proof of concept.

When preparing a patent the trick seems to be to make the claims as broad as possible in order to cover as many possible embodiments as might be foreseen, but specific enough to be distinct from prior art in the area. Our lawyer is swinging for the fence. I don't see the kind of broad sweeping language in TH's patent as I see in our own, but I suppose that could be a matter of style.


Grizz

[ryndel]

Everything is "simple" in hindsight.

That doesn't mean it was before someone had the bright idea.

If it was/is so simple, how come all the other makers of hammocks that were in business long before Hennessy weren't using something so simple and obvious and that has such advantages in hammock use?

Again - lets see the proof that it was in use before Hennessy's patent.

If you are so very certain, how come you are so reluctant to present the proof of your assertions?

See picture on page 15. That rope, which is a ridgeline, is holding the entire hammock off the ground. It isnt just holding the tarp up.

[Frolicking Dino]

As I recall (it has been a several decades since I've actually seen one), WWII era 'jungle' hammocks (those with attached bugnets) had a ridgeline that was a permanent part of the hammock and attached where the ropes described below came together. It both set the sag and held up the bugnet. The tarp was a separate entity with a separate support system. One of the people I backpacked with in college was my housemate's boyfriend (now husband) - He had and used such a hammock and I have emailed him to see if he has any pics of the hammock.

Any other older backpackers here remember those hammocks? They were popular in the late 60's and early 70's. You could get them in any army surplus store dirt cheap. The hammock fabric was canvas and olive drab or woodland camo. The hammock had about five webbing loops sewn to the head and foot. A length of rope was threaded thru each of the loops and the rope ends were joined at a single point. The bugnet was sort of halfway between flexible polyester / nylon window screen and the bugnet of today and really dark green or black (can't remember). the bugnet was sort of like a gaint snakeskin with a cinch cord on either end - you had to uncinch it and slip it partway down the hammock body to get out.

[BillyBob58]

Old Grouse found this and supplied the link over on WB.
http://hennessyhammock.com/formumfeedback/

[ringtail-THFKAfood]

Patents do not give the exclusive right to use. It confers the right to benefit from the use. If you developed the cure for cancer or the mythical 100 mpg carburetor, but were unwilling or unable to fully exploit the patent then someone WILL exploit the patent and you will spend a lot of time with your lawyer to determine compensation.

Tom Hennessy needs to either offer his own line of top entry hammocks with a structural ridgeline or license the patent to a top entry manufacturer.

[seuss]

Most I've seen like that have an elastic ridgeline supporting the bug net. Like the Moskito Travellers type hammocks. I think TH's patent might only apply to a solid (load-bearing) ridgeline. Too, most of the earlier hammocks ridgelines were outside any mosquito netting. HH ridgelines don't run from the lines or straps, they're attached directly to the hammock itself and run within the bug-free space. If netting were suspended from a solid ridgeline running attached to the hammock support lines a foot or two above the hammock ends, would TH's patent still apply?

As I recall (it has been a several decades since I've actually seen one), WWII era 'jungle' hammocks (those with attached bugnets) had a ridgeline that was a permanent part of the hammock and attached where the ropes described below came together. It both set the sag and held up the bugnet. The tarp was a separate entity with a separate support system. One of the people I backpacked with in college was my housemate's boyfriend (now husband) - He had and used such a hammock and I have emailed him to see if he has any pics of the hammock.

Any other older backpackers here remember those hammocks? They were popular in the late 60's and early 70's. You could get them in any army surplus store dirt cheap. The hammock fabric was canvas and olive drab or woodland camo. The hammock had about five webbing loops sewn to the head and foot. A length of rope was threaded thru each of the loops and the rope ends were joined at a single point. The bugnet was sort of halfway between flexible polyester / nylon window screen and the bugnet of today and really dark green or black (can't remember). the bugnet was sort of like a gaint snakeskin with a cinch cord on either end - you had to uncinch it and slip it partway down the hammock body to get out.

[TeeDee]

See picture on page 15. That rope, which is a ridgeline, is holding the entire hammock off the ground. It isnt just holding the tarp up.

Yes - please read my response to that post - better for you to read it there than for me to repeat it here.

It would be very interesting if you or someone tried using that as prior art to revoke T.H.'s patent.

I can just see it now - T.H. would be arguing that that is an entirely different method and implementation.

If T.H. won then Jack's of JRB would be home free on their system, since what they have is very close to the illustration.

If you won, then again, Jacks of JRB would be home free on their system.

Either way, the Jack's win.

It would be interesting in that essentially you would maybe be forcing T.H. to argue the Jack's case for them. Maybe a possible twist of tactics that Jacks could use - attack instead of defending. But then it gets expensive - lawyers always are.

You could win or lose.

If you lose you are right back to where you are now. Less a lot of money, of course.

If you win then you get the rights to brag. See, that money buys something after all.

Care to try for it??

I find it interesting that you have essentially found 100+ year old prior art for the Jack's bug net suspension system, making it very difficult for them to obtain a patent, IF they were thinking of doing so.

[txulrich]

this book is from 1904.this ridgeline definately affects the comfort curve. loosen the rope and the hammock will sag more tighten it more and it will sag less.

This looks like something I've seen in a Scout manual written by Lord Baden Powell himself.

[Frolicking Dino]

I have a book called Adventures in Camping - published by Gospel Publishing House and copyrighted by the Southern Baptist Convention in 1960. It describes an emergency shelter that can be constructed from a 10' x 12' canvas tarp and about 25' of rope. Basically, it does accordion-type pleats for about 5’ of the ten foot side. The rope is used to do a sheet-bend knot on the folded fabric at the head and foot end "making sure to make knots close enough together so the cover will offer complete coverage" (in other words, it sets the sag and length of the hammock). This is followed by a clove hitch type knot using the rope itself. The remaining rope is tied between two trees and the unpleated fabric is draped over the rope to form a tarp covering.

[headchange4u]

I finally got around to reading Tom's response and I thank him for taking the time to respond. That's a big plus in my book. I didn't expect a response, especially such an in depth one. The background on your hiking experience was nice.

Once again the HH is great hammock and hammock camping would not be where it is today if it were not for HH, IMHO. I don't think I will ever discourage anyone from getting a HH even though I have started to migrate away from mine because of some of the design features that are not what I prefer in a hammock. There are also several features in his hammock I love.

What I did see missing from his response was addressing how some of the customers were treated at TD. We have 3 people here that had a less that desirable experience with him this year. Patents, asym shapes, and ridge lines aside, the comments about being ignored have been what bothered me the most about this whole situation.