help me undrstand the need...

[XJ35S]

I have seen Shug's videos. I understand how the air cools you down.

Why not enough insulation IN the hammock? A 10* bag inside a 30* bag. or a military mss system?

An air mattress and a sleeping pad?

I can wrap my winter tarp around me right to the ground with the doors closed. Can I get away with no under quilt?

I'm not sure how to buy down if I was going to but it for a diy underquilt. 3 oz of down enough for what? For $23 How many do I need for an underquilt?

When i slept in a Quinzee I used newspaper to lay on.

I like to be very warm but don't have a lot of money to work with. I try to do it DIY on the cheap. Salvation army/ good will blankets and quilt worth revamping? Is the insulation reusable in a smaller package?

[kitsapcowboy]

I can wrap my winter tarp around me right to the ground with the doors closed. Can I get away with no under quilt?

When you sleep on the cold ground, you lose heat through conduction; in a hammock suspended in cold, flowing air, you lose heat by convection.

Tarps in "storm mode" and full-on winter tarps with doors create a microenvironment around your hammock that creates a beneficial thermocline (temperature differential), Your winter tarp pitched low with the side edges on the ground and the doors closed reduces convection by limiting the flow or air that brings cooler ambient air in on breezes and pulls the warmer air close to your hammock away; however, the tarp itself has little to no practical resistivity, or "R-value" as it is most commonly known, wgich is the same quantity you lose when you sleep on top of crushable insulation (like the back half of a sleeping bag, as opposed to a foam pad) inside of your hammock.

Air on the inside of the closed-off tarp, while it isn't blown away quickly by wind, still gets cold by losing ts heat against the cold inner surface of the tarp material itself, which is not insulated in any meaningful way. That's why winter tarps and socks are prone to condensation under the right environmental conditions. Now, if you leaned a 4' x 8' x 4" sheet of polyisocyanurate building insulation up flush against each side of your winter tarp -- the kind used in modern superinsulated roofs, with an R-value of about 22 for a four-inch thickness (or about the same as a stack of five insulated Klymit pads) -- you'd see a dramatic reduction in both heat loss and condensation inside your battened-down winter tarp...but you would also need a bigger backpack.

If someone here can figure out how to hang a hammock inside a hexayurt, I think the Nobel Prize will be yours...

[OCDave]

Many of us started with sleeping bags and sleeping pads. Movement of the pad during the night or re-positioning a sleeping bag while lying in a hammock will detract from the comfort inherent in the hammock but, it still beats sleeping on cold, wet and uneven ground. That said, going back to a pad now that I have experienced down underquilts would be unthinkable. Every time I think back to the nights I spent with my sleeping pad, I am sickened that I waited so long to get my first quilt.

In the end, it is your own experience. Do what ever works for you.

Good Luck

[nothermark]

As long as the insulation is between you and the moving air it does not matter which side of the hammock it is on. The lowest cost answer is closed cell foam pads. The problems come down to staying on the pad and the cold spots where the pad does not exist like the where the hammock comes up over the pad edge. The easy answer is to make a light bag to hold two pieces of CCF with one crossed over the other. Make the lengthwise piece at least a bit longer than shoulder to knee. Better is top of head to below the knee with the top tapered off a bit. Cross another piece so it covers shoulder to wherever on the length and is long enough to come up to the edge of the hammock at your shoulder. That covers most of the cold spots. Feet go on a separate pad so you can move them around. If you make a bag with nylon on one side and polar fleece on the body side it is a bit bulky but more comfortable and deals with most condensation.

The reason people go to down is that it packs smaller and is easier to manage than pads. If also costs a lot more. You get what you pay for.

If you are sleeping in a totally enclosed tent you will still freeze you backside without insulation. No tarp setup is that tight.

[SilvrSurfr]

A 10* bag inside a 30* bag will help with top insulation, but you'll be compressing all the insulation under you so it will be relatively useless. That's why underquilts are popular - the insulation doesn't get compressed. You can try pads underneath you, but they tend to move around and all pads are vapor barriers, so you're going to get condensation. I used pads for a couple of years because I was too cheap to buy an UQ. However, the lowest temperature I went was 22* F and I was soaked in condensation. I woke up with actual pools of sweat on my pad. That's the last night I used a pad - I bought an UQ immediately.

Oh, and a tarp is not insulation, so don't think that any tarp will keep you warm.

[weaver2469]

A 10* bag inside a 30* bag will help with top insulation, but you'll be compressing all the insulation under you so it will be relatively useless. That's why underquilts are popular - the insulation doesn't get compressed. You can try pads underneath you, but they tend to move around and all pads are vapor barriers, so you're going to get condensation. I used pads for a couple of years because I was too cheap to buy an UQ. However, the lowest temperature I went was 22* F and I was soaked in condensation. I woke up with actual pools of sweat on my pad. That's the last night I used a pad - I bought an UQ immediately.

Oh, and a tarp is not insulation, so don't think that any tarp will keep you warm.

What he said....

[SilvrSurfr]

Sometimes people have to learn for themselves what kind of insulation they need. This one guy came to a group hang once with overnight lows of 17* F. All he had was a sleeping bag, an air mattress and a pad. He was convinced that if he hung the hammock low enough, the ground would provide some insulation, and if he hunkered down the tarp, that would provide more insulation. Needless to say, he froze his butt off, and we've never seen him again.

At that same hang, another guy brought a 0* UQ, and that's all he brought. He thought that if he bought an UQ, he could wrap it around himself and he didn't need a TQ. That didn't work out well either!

[Kroma]

I'm not sure how to buy down if I was going to but it for a diy underquilt. 3 oz of down enough for what? For $23 How many do I need for an underquilt?

To answer your question about how much down insulation you may need in an UQ project:

Hammock Gear uses 8 oz of 850 fill power goose down in its 3/4 length Phoenix 20 UQ. That should give you a rough estimate of how much down you need for your project. For comparison, their full length 20 degree UQ, the Incubator 20 uses 12 oz of down in the standard length.

You may find Dream Hammock's Down Fill Calculator handy for your project. http://www.dream-hammock.com/DownFillCalculator.html

[Kroma]

At that same hang, another guy brought a 0* UQ, and that's all he brought. He thought that if he bought an UQ, he could wrap it around himself and he didn't need a TQ. That didn't work out well either!

That's quite odd...do people really not do their homework before going out? Backyard testing anyone?

[W8lkinUSA]

I used pads for a couple of years because I was too cheap to buy an UQ. However, the lowest temperature I went was 22* F and I was soaked in condensation. I woke up with actual pools of sweat on my pad. That's the last night I used a pad - I bought an UQ immediately.

Well that put an end to my decision between the two. I can get a pad for tents when summer rolls around. If I continue using tents..