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  1. #11
    MacEntyre's Avatar
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    Oh-no, [ignoring water issues] if CCF reduces convection better, wouldn't it do best on the outside? It's convection that takes the heat away once it has been transferred by conduction through our UQs.

    "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Roadtorque's Avatar
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    If you feel like you need a pad...you should have bought a lower rated UQ. If you feel like you need to go to bed with more than one layer of cloths on you should have bought a better bag. I have done enough winter camping and experimentation that no one will ever convince me (without data) that more insulating components piled together, such as a pad and an uq, can take you to a lower temp. In my experience; Two bags, one put inside the other, each rated at 50 degree will not be as warm as one zero degree bag. Two pads, each with an R value of 3 stacked on top of each other will not be as warm as one pad with an R value of 6.
    Last edited by Roadtorque; 01-08-2010 at 20:03.

  3. #13
    Dutch's Avatar
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    For me it is all abot comfort. I use UQ because they are comfortable. I made my winter UQ so that I would not need a pad to suppliment. Once you have to lay on a pad why not just use 2 pads or a thicker pad. You already have to deal with the shifting pad and condensation. Pads are very good insulation IMO and I don't think anything going to get through 2 1/2" pads. Plus they are very light and can be packed on the outside of your pack. Not to mention if you ever have to go to ground. So I go in one direction or another. Once you wind up on a pad anyhow yuo lost most of the advantage of the quilt.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member MedicineMan's Avatar
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    I'll just add that if you feel moisture on the pad then consider if you don't use a pad that same moisture is going somewhere--like into the quilt. I'll carry a 1/4 inch foam pad as supplement on multi-day hikes to help slow moisture getting into the UQ.
    Concerning that same 1/4 inch ccf, amazing what range it gives-i.e. added range to any UQ.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Oh-No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEntyre View Post
    Oh-no, [ignoring water issues] if CCF reduces convection better, wouldn't it do best on the outside? It's convection that takes the heat away once it has been transferred by conduction through our UQs.
    I was thinking in terms of convection inside the CCF. (lots of isolated tiny air pockets) Of course the CCF is wind proof and isn't deformed by the wind so
    there is no pumping/billows effect. With my down quilt, any wind deforming
    the outer shell translates to air movement inside the quilt. That can't be good.

    So if moisture were not an issue. I would have the down quilt next to me
    (better drape, fewer and smaller air gaps between me an the insulation)
    and the CCF on the outside (better wind barrier).

    However if you measured the R value in a lab with no wind, I suspect there
    would be little or no difference which one is facing the heat source.

    That's my take on it, but then again I'm easily confused.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Cannibal's Avatar
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    Quilts rule! Don't need no stinking pads.

    Carry on.
    Trust nobody!

  7. #17
    Senior Member Doctari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take-a-knee View Post
    No, a down quilt or any insulation merely slows down the flow of heat. Adding more insulation than you need can result in overheating/perspiration so in that sense it is undesireable. Your UQ wouldn't get wet but your top quilt might lying on a CCF pad. Other than that, there is no "harm". SGT Rock use two Oware evazote pads and a JRB UQ on his thru and it worked great for him.
    Last year in (about) 9 degree weather I used a (older) KAQ between hammock & JRB No Sniveler. YES it adds warmth!!! In other cold hangs (or on long hikes when weight is a consideration) I add my CCF sit pad. The CCF pad ADDS insulation / warmth, it does not take away from it!!

    Using the JRB & KAQ together was a bit much for me, I had to get out 2x on Friday night & 1 on Sat & stand there to cool off. The first time it took over 15 minutes for me to cool off & go back to bed. I still plan on having the KAQ if I make it to Mt Rogers, but I'll use it at first, with the No Sniv rigged to be put in place in an instant. No need getting wet from sweat in those temps.


    FWIW: my "sit pad" is only long enough to cover from neck to hips.
    When you have a backpack on, no matter where you are, you’re home.
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  8. #18
    MacEntyre's Avatar
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    Wow! Last night I discovered one way to maximize the warmth of down... just put a layer of Insultex under the UQ, and a layer of nylon over the hammock. Read about it here.

    - MacEntyre
    "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    Re: quilts and pads, you want the heat IN YOUR BODY rather than in your insulation. CCF transmits less heat...which means it absorbs less of your body heat in the first place. But whatever heat makes it thru the CCF that you're laying on will be absorbed and held into the UQ, and it'll function just like it did before...stopping whatever heat would normally be lost to the environment. Layering works during the day. More insulation equals more warmth. The laws of physics don't change when the sun goes down.

    CCF doesn't have convection INSIDE the pad b/c each bubble is sealed. It's a vapor barrier. OCF would b/c the wind can go thru it. But convection will work against the bottom of CCF the wind blows across it...but this is the same as any other insulation.

    The question on layering while you sleep (whether it's clothes in a sleeping bag or CCF+UQ) is an interesting one where people argue their experience vs science. It's a lot like airborne troops who say that you fall faster under a parachute, and hit harder, when it's cold b/c the air is thinner. Ask this question in an airborne unit and you'll certainly hear this answer. I don't doubt that you feel like you're falling faster and hitting harder...how you feel is your call...but it's a scientific fact that cold air is denser than warm air. And it's a scientific fact that more insulation will keep you warmer. (Aside from the obvious issues of wetting out your insulation, compressing it by wearing too much, etc...more loft equals more warmth.)
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  10. #20
    Senior Member KerMegan's Avatar
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    and the distinguishing phrase that separates
    theory from reality--"all else being equal..."

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