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  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Atlanta GA
    Dutch Netless, BBXLC, Custom Bridge
    a few, mostly WB
    Quote Originally Posted by kitsapcowboy View Post


    With respect to you and the OP, the thread was started asking about the pros and cons of using Dutch bling solutions to tie out the corners of a tarp versus LineLocs, and my post was an attempt to examine the collateral effects of that choice on the aspects of absolute weight savings and net cost, stressing that either tie-out hardware option has many other aspects to consider besides weight savings.

    I totally get (part of) what you are saying, and I can assure you I'm definitely familiar with gram-counter philosophy, even though I don't necessarily let it govern my hiking and camping, but to me there is still a sophistry in looking at relative weight reduction as more important than absolute weight reduction from your pack, except as a useful rubric to get you to examine each component in detail to achieve an overall target weight goal.

    Speaking of sophistry, even looking at things relatively, I wouldn't say 11 grams is a half an ounce (14.175 grams); in truth, it's little more than a third. If your pack weight -- with a consumable pound of water on board, for argument's sake -- were 11 pounds you'd say you'd achieved an ultralight base weight, but if I showed you my 14.175-pound pack and made the same claim you'd surely scoff at me, as I would. If I offered you $11K for the $14K used truck for sale in your driveway, you'd tell me to get off your property...

    All of that said, I appreciate that people come to this interesting hobby with different aims and perspectives. Wanting to avoid further cluttering of this thread, I hope that further discussion of gram-counting methods and ultralight philosophy continues in the many ongoing HF threads that currently explore these subjects at length.
    yeah I agree with this. if you're in the business of counting grams there's nothing wrong (and a lot right) with that. but while that may be one facet of this issue, it's not the entire issue for, I would guess, 99% of the people on this forum. I've been to a couple of hangs and I've never seen anyone come in packing Ultralight or mostly lightweight.

    and in reality, even the thru-hikers I've met on the AT, most are carrying about 13-17lbs baseweight in a 60'ish L iter off-the-shelf pack like an Osprey. they're using 14oz Silnylon tarps, 7oz aluminum cookware with 3.5oz canister stoves, and 6oz water bladders. I saw a couple of bear canisters, full size knives, a lot of paracord, and MOST of these people are walking in boots, not trail runners like is supposedly required these days.

    I'm not saying weight savings is not a legitimate goal for a long-distance hiker; I'm just saying most of the people here are not that...

    IMO, this discussion of using Linelocs vs titanium bits serves more people being one of convenience, effectiveness, and cost saving, rather than 11grams of weight savings at any cost...

    EDIT: I want to add to this that I'm not picking on anyone here or discounting their side of the discussion. saving weight is VERY valid reason for gear choices and changes - 1 ounce carried over 150 miles or 2000 vertical feet is significant... and I don't want anyone to think I'm piling on. sorry if it seems that way...
    Last edited by Secondmouse; 07-03-2017 at 16:12.

  2. #62
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Utrecht, Netherlands
    To the original question:
    - In terms of convenience, what could be easier than linelocks on the tarpcorners and a looped rope to go around your stake? Just pull the rope and you're done. Tarp worms are nifty, but when your fingers are cold putting a loop around that tiny piece of titanium is an inconvience where the linelock has you covered, and when you face strong winds all you have to do is tie it off with a half hitch, which you can do wearing gloves.

    - As to weight, 11 gram is barely a sip of water. Go for convenience

    When I first assembled my tarp I used
    - Dutch's continuous ridgeline
    - shockcordloops with linelocks on all 8 corners, with zing-it guylines which I spliced
    - titanium shepherd pegs, which I tied my lines around with a marlin hitch
    - Hooked linelocks along the guylines on the doorcorners, so that I could hook them onto the corner guylines
    - shockcordloops and guylines on the side pullouts

    The idea was that I could adjust everything without unpitching anything, and that everything stayed tought even when wet. I barely use any hardware on my guylines anymore, for a couple of reasons.
    - I like to keep my lines on the tarp and everything just gets tangled up. It's tireing
    - the whole setup gave in way to much when the wind came in
    - In answer to point 2 found I didn't need any of it. I removed a lot and noticed that ones I have a tight pitch with a barebone setup it stays that way despite any rain.

    Now I have:
    - a line of zing-it on the four main corners
    - A much smaller shockcordloop (for now) and line on the doorcorner, with a hooked linelock on two of them (mirrored on the diagonal, so it doesn't matter which way I put up my tent. I allways have my "door" at the footend and keep the headend shut)
    - A much smaller shockcordloop and line at the pullouts

    I also brought different stakes for the main corners. Brandless aluminum v-shaped stakes with a notch that's shaped a bit like the msr groundhog, but slightly more angled which is great. That notch allows me to pull the guyline tight while looping it around the stake ones, hooking it behind that notch (which doesn't bite into tue cord btw) and loop it around again the way you would loop a line around a tarpworm. This way the loop pulls itself tight in the notch and won't slip, not even in heavy winds. It is however very easy to pull those loops free. I don't tie any knots anymore and can do and undo those loops in like 4 seconds wearing gloves. It's easy to do and also solves the problem where your guylines can slip of a stake when you can't pitch it at the right angle, which can be real issue in rocky soil.

    You might wonder how I tighten the tarp. I noticed there's a lot of give in the ridgeline and those prussic knots. By the time the tarp is pitched everything hangs a bit lower, which the ridgeline is trying to undo. Any slack due to rain is covered by the ridgeline and probably the shockcord loops I have on the pullouts. At the same time everything stands rocksolid and sheds wind like it's nothing (up to the point your pullouts tear).

    I still use the shepherd hooks on the doors and pullouts because they take less force and weigh a third of those v-stakes, and are generally a bit easier to pitch.

    All in all I gained a little bit of weight because of the stakes, but given the wind you can sometimes catch I wanted a bigger stake to go with the shepherd hooks anyway and this particular one acts like a linlock in the process. Love em.

  3. #63

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Woods Cross, UT
    Dream Hammock Sparrow
    Quote Originally Posted by somniferous View Post
    I don't like having the line permanently attached to my stakes, I like the lines to stay attached to the tarp. I've run into too many situations where I have to tie off to something other than one of my stakes. This also allows me to leave the stakes at home and use sticks if I want to drop some grams.
    I hadn't thought of this before I ordered the hookworms, even though my last setup was stake-free.
    Enjoying my fall into the rabbit hole...

  4. #64
    Grumpy Squatch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    North Grafton, MA
    DH Sparrow #2779
    UGQ Winter Dream
    Kevlar/Ti CinchBkl
    Quote Originally Posted by fivefreds View Post
    I hadn't thought of this before I ordered the hookworms, even though my last setup was stake-free.
    I'm sure I'm in the minority but I don't like keeping line attached to either my stakes or my tarps. I like to stuff my tarp and go and not worry about rolling up 10 dangling lines. And where I normally hang I use stakes on maybe 30% of my tie-outs. The rest are tied to trees or something else. So all my tarps have Tarpworms at all tieout points.

    This gives me a lot of flexibility - I keep my guylines in around 6' lengths (Atwood 1.2mm Micro Cord) and add a few 12' double lengths to my stake pouch. I can quickly take one or however many pieces I need for a particular tie-out, make the end fast to the anchor, then quickly tension with the Tarpworm. I'm not stuck with what is knotted to a stake or on the tarp. I can switch between reflective, stealth, or even glo-in-the-dark as I see fit (like glow on the door I will be using at night). If I need a stake I either Larkshead a line on or if I'm not in a rush tie a Marlinspike Hitch. On trees or branches I typically use a Timber Hitch. I like the Tarpworms because with the tension at the tarp, I can quickly adjust at night without having to leave the dry confines and go to all the stakes.

    Men hang out their signs indicative of their respective trades; shoe makers hang out a gigantic shoe; jewelers a monster watch, and the dentist hangs out a gold tooth; but up in the Mountains of New Hampshire, God Almighty has hung out a sign to show that there He makes men.
    - Daniel Webster

  5. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    WL Snipe
    WL Tadpole

    LineLocs vs Hookworms and Fleaz

    I've always had trouble with fleaz. I can't ever seem to dislodge the 1.75 cord from the flea easily, so I tend to prefer the hookworms.
    If I didn't have that problem with the fleaz, I would definitely prefer the fleaz because they're a bit easier to use otherwise.

  6. #66
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Dream Hammock Raven
    COGS Hex/Kelty 12
    Loco Libre
    I prefer no tensioning hardware. Just attach the stake with a marlin spike hitch and pull it tight.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

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