Boy Scouts and Hammocks

[Ramblinrev]

I hate to say it, but I can definaltely understand the at least two scouts in a tent issue when I think back on my experience in scouting. A single boy can be an easier target for abuse and other misconduct on the part of a leader or peer. When there are two in a tent I would imagine predators (human, not critter) may be more hesitant to try something.

I realize I could be seen as impugning the many good leaders and scouts in the program. But I know what my experience in the program was and it was not pretty. I have more discussed my experience in other threads so I don't see any need to rehash it here. But when they have so many people come through the facility with little knowledge about who is in the group, I can understand the need to take serious precautions. If I was running a facility like that I would probably want more than two in a tent.
There is safety in numbers.

[howiez3]

Come on, it would not be the Scouts unless you had 50 lbs in an external frame pack with a heavy tent. Or at least that is what I remember of the hikes I went on in the 90's.

you had pack frames ?!! not us in the early 60's !! ha!

[howiez3]

Here's their reply:



Sounds like they have some legitimate reasons for wanting campsites set up in a specific format and, while it is certainly possible for this format to be maintained with some scouts in hammocks, it is likely easier for the Philmont staff to simply deny the use of hammocks than to police their use.

Tree wear could be studied (has anyone here already done so?) and results prepared to eliminate that concern.

I about spit my coffee out when I read their concerns about "issues" hammocks have in inclement weather! I've been in plenty of tents in inclement weather. I've also been in a hammock in cold, windy rain. I don't need to tell this group which method worked better for me!

The real issue is likely to be their policy on two scouts to a tent. As a new Scout adult leader, if they have information about why it's important to have two Scouts to a tent in bear country, I'd like to learn more about it as we've got bears where our Scouts camp as well. I'll approach them about it that way.

It'll be a few years before I'd be taking a Scout group to Philmont. Perhaps we can cause a change in their policy in that time....

I did the northern trek a few years ago ,and a couple of the sites were quite barren .trees may be iffy in some sites.Or the tent area is bare but the bear bag area is the surounding trees. ,like down near base camp ,its just desert.They even disallowed sleep out of my tent by myself ( my stink was grossing me out after a few days !) saying that bears might roll me over thinking may shape in the dark was log like .and bears would be looking for bugs to eat !the enviroment there was taxed by heavy use even the "tough" trek trails we used. If anybody gets to go ,see if they will show you the WALL of photos taken of bear damage !

[Binford]

Nobody wants to take the time to address something that they do not perceive to be an issue. Momentum will gain and eventually they'll change, but it's gonna be a while is my bet.

Well, if a change in their policy is possible, it's not going to happen on its own. It is going to take an organized effort. I'm not sure it's worth that effort or not. But I'll be looking into it.

I hate to say it, but I can definaltely understand the at least two scouts in a tent issue when I think back on my experience in scouting. A single boy can be an easier target for abuse and other misconduct on the part of a leader or peer. When there are two in a tent I would imagine predators (human, not critter) may be more hesitant to try something.

The impression I got is the 2-to-a-tent policy has more to do with protection from bears than adult predators. The current BSA child-protection guidelines do not require two to a tent; rather simply that no one 18 or older may be in the tent with a Scout unless that person is the parent or legal guardian. Not even a step-parent qualifies unless they have legal guardian status.

However, I fully agree with you that having at least one other Scout in a tent makes the success of an adult predator much less likely, which is what the BSA strives for in its policy. I can't even drive with a Scout in my vehicle unless another adult or another Scout is with us. So that same concept would apply equally well to tents and I support that concept because of it.

That said, however, I think hammocks are exposed enough as to not provide the concealment required to allow a predator to succeed and would thus be a great way to help keep the boys safe.

Anyway, Philmont's policy of 2 to a tent is "when possible" and no one may sleep outside a tent. So it most likely has to do with their "Bearmuda Triangle" bear-safety concept that I have yet to learn about, but will.

I did the northern trek a few years ago ,and a couple of the sites were quite barren .trees may be iffy in some sites.Or the tent area is bare but the bear bag area is the surounding trees. ,like down near base camp ,its just desert.

This is exactly why I am opting for a pad rather than an UQ--in case I have to go to the ground in my hammock. Not necessarily at Philmont, but anywhere. I haven't tried hammock camping enough yet to know how reliably I will be able to find suitable hanging points.

[howiez3]

Philmont policy, I think is realy a seperate from general Scout policy .The Bear triangle is a big issue there ,as is the high use and enviromental impact . At home on troop size campouts ,I don't see any policy agianist boys using hamocks .having said that ,I have in 15 years seen good reason to have 2 boys in a tent ,they are a little warmer ,a little less scared of being alone ,homesick ,and we always have the tentmates watch out for each others general well being .The times that boys have reported to me "jimmies crying ,or bobbys cold ,or yes ,sammy wet himself has proved this to be prudent ,wether it's policy or not.

[Binford]

I don't see any policy agianist boys using hamocks .having said that ,I have in 15 years seen good reason to have 2 boys in a tent ,they are a little warmer ,a little less scared of being alone ,homesick ,and we always have the tentmates watch out for each others general well being .The times that boys have reported to me "jimmies crying ,or bobbys cold ,or yes ,sammy wet himself has proved this to be prudent ,wether it's policy or not.

I agree completely. Scouts sharing tents with their fellow Scouts tends to help build their friendships and add to the experience.

My son, a new Scout, wants us to hang out in the yard in our hammocks every night if I'd agree. But on Scout campouts, he'd prefer to share a tent with his fellow Scouts. Doesn't surprise me at all.

As for me, however, I can either sleep in a tent on the hard ground with another snoring adult leader, or I can set my hammock up and wake up without all the aches and pains....

[sk8rs_dad]

We have had success overcoming most of the issues by hanging multiple hammocks under a shared tarp or several overlapping tarps. It's actually a fun challenge for a patrol to figure out how to rig things so everybody is covered and rain run-off gets channeled away.

If you want to try some place other than Philmont, there's Haliburton Scout Reserve on the southern edge of Algonquin Park. It's not quite the same scale as Philmont at 5000 acres but it's a memorable trip with different challenges, might be less expensive, and counts as international travel. Many BSA troops visit every year. My troop is spending a week there in August.

I stumbled across this in BP&P (Scouts Canada policy document) in the sections on "Leave no trace" camping and hiking.

10007.2 Camping
Campsites, shelters, tarps, and hammocks are utilized in a manner so as to limit impact on the environment. In most circumstances, the use of tents, tarps, or hammocks rather than constructing shelters from surrounding resources are the least invasive methods of providing shelter. There are exceptions, including: a) snow igloos or quinzhees in winter settings, and b) emergency situations. When there is a choice, tents and tarps are set up on sand, duff, or mineral soil and not vegetated areas. Hammocks are hung from trees sturdy enough not to be pulled down or scarred. When the shelter is taken down, the area appears to be in its natural state.

[I Splice]

About this Philmont rule against hammocks... Anyone know their official reason? I've read a lot of speculation in this thread, but saw nothing certain or conclusive about their reasoning. That would be a critical bit of intel to have in order to work for a change in their policy.

<...>

Has anyone received an official reason from Philmont as to why hammocks are not allowed?


Edit: A Google search for an answer was unproductive, so I just sent the Philmont staff a polite e-mail inquiring about the reasons behind their no-hammock policy. I'll post up what I learn when I hear back from them.

There was a posting to Scouts-l of someone who teaches LNT Masters Courses at Philmont reporting Mark Anderson's (Program Director at Philmont; the guy in charge) stance on hammocks:
http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.e...OUTS-L&P=R4724

Philmont has some special problems; about 22,000 people go backpacking there each summer. Each trek has 11 days on the trail. Most of the people that go to Philmont each year are teenage boys. That raises some special issues.

Philmont had some bear incidents back in the 70's, IIRC and instituted a real belt-and-suspenders set of bear procedures.

Between those items and the way Scouts seems to bring out the inner control freak in people you get the no-hammocks rule. I'm unhappy that I'll have to buy a tent just for the Philmont trip. Philmont doesn't allow tarps or bivy bags either.

Philmont's bear procedures are way beyond what is required anywhere else (bear bags, the 'Bearmuda' Triangle, sumps, and the way you arrange tents at a campsite are all part of their bear procedures. Those procedures are all based on decent science, they just take it farther than anywhere else. I've heard that Philmont has relaxed their procedures to the point that you are no longer required to carry a special set of clothes for sleeping in.

[Binford]

Philmont has some special problems; about 22,000 people go backpacking there each summer. Each trek has 11 days on the trail.

I understood this to be one of their reasons for concern about tree damage, but let's be realistic about how many of those 22k would be hanging in hammocks if allowed. Maybe 100 on the outside?

So far the only reason they have that holds water is for their bear policy. And for all I know that may be quite rational. I haven't looked into it yet.

If there is a sensible way to accommodate hammock use while addressing all their legitimate concerns, I hope they will be mature enough to give fair consideration to allowing their use, at least on a limited basis (for those who have demonstrated that they can meet all their Scout- and bear-protection guidelines using hammocks). I'm not holding my breath, however....

[Boghog1]

Sadly, our troop doesnt own any backpacking gear. I just found this out on our last trip. We have these big LL Bean tent, big stoves, etc. Everything for campground camping.

Our scout master said thats the gear we always have used. When discussing, backpacking, I'm told we dont have the gear.
My goal is to equip the troop, but It will take a long time.

I have boys express interest and some will sleep in the hammocks, but they also have a tent with thier crap in it.

Fortunately- my oldest is in his 2nd year and I have a 4 yr old who is eager to join the cub. Maybe by the time he is a Webelo, I will have the troop geared for wilderness adventure.

I still need to go back and read all of this but our troop was nothing but car camping 5 years ago now we try to do a mix of about 50/50 car camping and back packing. the only real backpacking equipment the troop provides is the tent and the stove and for the stoves you can teach them how to make soda can stoves or cat can stoves. you can start out with relatively short trips. Our town has conservation land that the boys are allowed to camp on. it is a ¼ mile trip from the parking area to where we camp so if the boys don't have all the latest high tech gear they can still get by with slightly heavier stuff.