Do you store the synthetic in it’s stuff sack and/or compressed in any way? Also, do you fold and/or roll it?
Do you store the synthetic in it’s stuff sack and/or compressed in any way? Also, do you fold and/or roll it?
It isn’t stored at all. I have used it daily for over the past month.
Originally Posted by Just Bill
I think that term "instant on" fairly well describes what we're trying to explain. And yes, I do have a summer quilt of yours - fine quilt, too!. I find the PG insulates just fine, but I don't think its as instant on as the down. Perhaps this feeling we're trying to describe is just something that some are more sensitive to? I guessing folks that naturally put out lots of heat won't notice as much? Just guessing, but I know what I feel. And yes, it does feel like the heat is being radiated back to you.
You know, Grumpy, these ideas aren't about trying to defy physics. Rather, just trying to explain what I'm feeling and make sense of it. I have yet to have anyone explain the physics of what this "radiation" or "instant on" feeling is. That is what I'd really like. I know enough about physics to be a little dangerous - heck, I've failed it more times than most folks take it - and I should be able to communicate in a way which should lead someone who knows more physics than I do to explain it better, rather than invalidate the fact of what I'm feeling (and others).
At the end of the day, it might only be a subtle issue, one that is only valid to those who feel it. Perhaps a little like hearing is to an audiophile, or taste to a wine connoisseur? I don't think it is. But neither am I trying to invalidate the worth of synthetics. Love my Just A Quilt, love my Jarbridge. Almost as much as I do my Serrano and Incubator.
"I wonder if anyone else has an ear so tuned and sharpened as I have, to detect the music, not of the spheres, but of earth, subtleties of major and minor chord that the wind strikes upon the tree branches. Have you ever heard the earth breathe... ?"
- Kate Chopin
Just thought I'd throw this out there; I made a 2.5 Apex UQ in 2015 and have slept in it nearly every nite since. No cold spots yet and this UQ/ hammock is put up/ stuffed into an old green WW II canvas water bucket every morning and set back up every evening. That is a lot of compression cycles and the Apex CS shows no sign of degradation or falling apart when I held it up to a brite lite- lite diffusion seemed very even. I think that if handled roughly/ jerked and jamed into too small a pouch this may tend to tear/ break apart the APex CS. One thing I noticed with this undifferential cut UQ is that if its too lose it feels more like a draft but if I have it to tight it feels more like a cold spot and usually a suspension adj. (loosen) solves this problem.
Obviously the fear with down is that it will get wet and fail. How hard is it for this to happen? Has anyone experienced failure with a dwr treated underquilt or top quilt?
The 'disaster' scenario that some fear is pretty unrealistic. Fall in a creek, leave your bag in the rain. Etc. Anyone who has washed a down bag knows it takes a bit of effort, even with an untreated down.
What is realistic is humidity creep from ambient air as well as your body's vapor.
When it's warmer out... it's ambient air that is an issue. I'm a fan of synthetics for summer time for that reason.
When it's very cold out... it's your own body vapor getting in. Not so much that it saturates the down, but that it gets into the insulation and freezes.
Most folks don't notice this issue too much unless you're out for a week or more at a crack.
Makes sense....thanks For the info
It's most likely a change in the distance at which water vapor changes phase relative to your skin. Uninsulated, water vapor condenses right at the skin surface when it contacts cold air. Insulation slows the radiative and convective cooling of the skin so it also moves the point at which water on the surface recondenses to a point farther away from the skin. That's why cottony fabrics feel chilly and clammy when damp: their saturation causes water to recondense next to the skin. Nylon allows it to continue to move away from the skin as a vapor and recondense somewhere else, usually within the insulation loft itself, which is the argument between synthetic and down for long-term use or use in damp environments.
A good read to start: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p012412.pdf
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There isn't anything magical about it really. Nor any violations of scientific laws. A physics degree is not required.
Simple enough- all insulation technically insulates. But not all insulation is equal.
When temperatures are unequal then you will feel that inequality.
Simple Science: Objective
Most of us understand more than enough to understand that we are the source of the heat.
Inanimate objects with no source of energy (such as down) do not produce heat.
Insulation does not store heat, it stores air. A double pane window works better than a single pane. But a triple even better. Each layer of trapped air, and ideally in smaller and smaller volumes of trapped air that is created by insulation- the more resistant it will be to temperature changes.
Thermal equilibrium is the simple fact that the environment seeks balance. Differences in temperature will balance out given the opportunity.
A wall of a house is built with insulation. The higher the "R-value", the greater the walls ability to resist that temperature differential.
Feelings: Subjective
The heat we produce dissipates into the environment around us- and that's our 'normal' or baseline sensation.
In fact the sensation of 'comfortable' is an external environment of roughly 70* or so... compared to our 98.6* internal temp.
If the ambient air differs too far to either direction we have a sensation of hot or cold.
We all disagree on exactly what that magic number is- which is why thousands of spouses are murdered each year next to the thermostats in homes.
Typically- we reach for the 'downy goodness' when it's colder and the temperature differential between us and our environment is greatest.
So the effect is much more noticeable when we crawl into a bed on a 30* night as opposed to a 50* night. The simple reason is the differential between us and the ambient air is greater.
The greater than differential, the quicker you will notice the change.
If you have a very high quality down product... it's like having a octuple pane window.
If you have a decent insulation product... it's like a triple pane window.
If you flick your bic and put your hand over it- you'll burn your hand almost instantly.
If you hop into very high quality insulation- the effect is the same.
You are dumping 60-80* heat into the quilt. With millions of tiny trapped air pockets in high quality insulation; you rapidly heat each trapped cell of air adjoining you. Which can then heat up it's adjoining cell of air.
Each 'pane' (layer of air) is heated to a temperature equal to your body's temperature.
The smaller the volume of trapped air immediately adjoining you when you place that insulation over the heat source (you)... the faster that air heats up.
Back to the beginning and the 70* setting we keep the thermostat at depending on who won the deathmatch in the hallway.
If that layer of trapped air in your insulation gets up to say 71*... you'll feel hot.
You may even feel a burning sensation much like you would when stepping into the bright sun or when holding your hand over the bic lighter. Not as extreme... but you have a temperature next to your skin that you feel is warmer than your baseline of comfort. Your skin is telling you that it is hotter than it prefers because the layer of air immediately next to it is equal to it's temperature. This is an even greater sensation as you likely just came from an environment that was much colder than you prefer... especially if you just stripped off several layers of clothing before climbing into bed.
The problem with describing that sensation is that when you use words like 'radiation' you get a scientific minded person up in arms as that word translates much differently in their brain. Especially as it's a term that describes a type of heat transmission. Radiation, conduction, convection... all scientific terms that trigger all kinds of issues when used. There are several clean scientific explanaitions... but I've always found the window pane analogy to work well enough for most. Scientist and laymen alike can shake hands and enjoy a campfire around that idea.
Simple fact- synthetic materials cannot produce a 'pane' of trapped air as thin as good down. The best synthetics are around 700 fill. So while enough synthetic can be used to build up enough insulation to do the job... it can't build that micro layer of trapped air that down does... so since you must heat a larger volume of air overall... you don't achieve the same instant on feel. Material science and such.
So like I said-
'Instant on' is a nice unscientific term for that warm fuzzy feeling we get when snuggled and buggled in quality insulation like a swaddled babe.
PS....
Take my PLG quilt, fold it up a few times and slip your hand in.
Do the same with a good down quilt, and the same with your cotton comforter or similar.
It's hard to feel the difference in PLG and APEX unless compared side by side, and occasionally in thicknesses beyond what I'd suggest you use.
45-50* is really about as far as I like to go with synthetics unless there is good reason to push further.
Roughly... PLG is around 650 fill, Apex about 500? Neither of them are down... but PLG is about as close as a synthetic has got thus far... so the instant on sensation is there but not as clearly as it would be in a 850 fill down with a .67 shell.
Has the synthetic quilt been washed and dried? Maybe in a dryer with heat?
Ken in NC
I collect vintage camp stoves.
I roast coffee at home.
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