Is there an advantage to a Climashiels UQ in damp or humid conitions?

[OlTrailDog]

I was fortunate enough not to have had very little S&R involvement. Since I worked in large wilderness areas adjacent to National Parks the S&R functions were most often carried out by the Park Service in conjunction with the Sheriff's department. The NPs are rich enough to afford such specialized service since they charge entrance fees and have larger budgets due to much higher public use. The dispatch, law enforcement, and S&R functions are top notch because they get an awful lot of activity over a season. Usually, us po' folk with the FS were left to simply poke around in the woods.

[OldnSlow]

Rightly or Wrongly, I subscribe to the Synthetic side of the discussion, ever since I went on a winter holiday with SWMBO, to Barbados, and her down jacket came back in an unusable lump of orange and down.... I've not had that problem with Apex or CS. Of course, I car hammock camp, because of my bad knees, so in my situation, the bulk does not matter so much. YMMV

[BillyBob58]

I'm not sure I ever got folks to understand exactly what I am asking for opinions about on this thread, so I am bumping it to give it another go. I was messing around to day with some of my synthetic quilts ad got to thinking about this again.

OK, to repeat: this question is not really about whether or not synthetics perform better in both TQs and UQs if condensation, fog, sweat or just generally getting wet is a problem. I think they do, but that is NOT quite what I am asking about, and really my question ONLY relates to UQs. I don't think any one has given an opinion about my actual question. So consider a 20 oz CS UQ rated to 25F, and a similar rated down UQ that might weigh an oz or 2 less. Or, at the same weight, be rated a few degrees warmer, or maybe be a few inches longer.

A: Climashield UQ:
1: Picture a sheet of Climashield insulation sewn to the inner(upper) shell of an UQ that is snugged against the back. If the inner shell is against the back, then the CS is against the back. The sheet of CS is between this inner shell and another, usually looser, outer/lower(closer to the ground) shell
2: when this UQ is pulled out of it's stuff sack and hung under the hammock, it un-compresses and LOFTS DOWNWARD. It does NOT loft upwards to contact our backs, because it is by definition always/already in contact with our backs if the shell it is sewn to is in contact with our backs, which it should always be unless we are venting due to over heating. Any lofting tat is done is done in a downward direction, by design.

B: Down UQ
1: Baffles are filled with enough down to LOFT UPWARDS to contact the inner shell which is pulled snug against our backs. If there is not quite enough down and over stuff, and it fails to LOFT UPWARDS enough to reach the inner shell and our backs,, not only is loft/warmth reduced, BUT A GAP MIGHT OCCUR between the top of the down and my back. Gaps tend to fill with cold air and be very cold, colder than simply having loft reduced a bit.
2: Damp down tends to loft less. This has been observed many times even by some folks here at this forum. At some point as loft decreases from say 2.5" to 2" or less, at some point that down will not be rising high enough to contact your back. If it is a differential cut UQ- as the best, most expensive UQs tend to be- it will not do any good to tighten the suspension and pull that inner shell tighter against your back. The baffled chambers will compress very little, and remain about the same size, and at some point wet down will not be able to fill them enough to touch the inner/upper shell.

If it is a TQ and loft is reduced from 2.5" to 2.0", you might be fine, might not even know it, if the temps are not pushing the TQs limits. Because there will be no gap,it will still lay right down on top of you. Or, if it is near the 20F rating, maybe it won't be quite warm enough and you will need to put on a puffy jacket.

But if it is an UQ and loft drops to 2" from 2.5. and a gap develops, gaps fill with cold air. Same effect as an UQ not being hung/adjusted correctly, or not tight enough, so gaps or drafts develop. Many threads here attest to how poorly that works out. There might now be a very large change in the warmth. It might even be worthless.

Do I have that right? Will a potential gap develop? If so, how much loft must be lost before that becomes a problem? How damp would it have to get before in addition to less loft, we now have a gap?

Even if CS loses as much loft at a given amount of dampness as the down(it doesn't), there will still be no gap. Because it does not need to loft upwards, but rather lofts downwards by design. No amount of moisture will interfere with this need/tendency to loft downward, and the moisture will just tend to drain downward out of the CS.

So the question is, forgetting for now about whether CS performs better in damp conditions than down, and in clothing or a TQ. The question is: can a gap develop with damp or wet down that is hanging under an UQ and trying to loft upwards, which can not develop with a sheet of CS sewn to the upper/inner shell, which DOES NOT have to loft upwards?

And if so, is that one quality alone a potential benefit for a Climashield UQ compared to a down UQ used in multiday backcountry trips with no chance of drying out from condensation, sweat and any source of moisture? (question does NOT apply to TQs, in which case both down and CS must loft upwards, and both will be laying down on top of the user.)

What do Y'all think? Does this make sense? Am I missing something?

[wvumountaineer52]

I use a 50 climashield diy quilt In the summer. I prefer that due to the humidity, sweat, heat and rain storms we get in NC during the summers.


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[cmoulder]

BillyBob, I have a 40deg CS UQ but have not had a chance to test-drive it yet. I have a proven 40deg CS TQ (EE Prodigy) that I will pair it with.

I will keep in mind your points as I test it in some seriously nasty weather this spring, with both GE and bridge. (I also want to try an air mat with the bridge.) I have a test venue that is a 10-minute walk back to the car if I must bail.

[BillyBob58]

BillyBob, I have a 40deg CS UQ but have not had a chance to test-drive it yet. I have a proven 40deg CS TQ (EE Prodigy) that I will pair it with.

I will keep in mind your points as I test it in some seriously nasty weather this spring, with both GE and bridge. (I also want to try an air mat with the bridge.) I have a test venue that is a 10-minute walk back to the car if I must bail.

Perfect safe testing scenario. I look forward to your results.

But I'm not sure how my theory could be put to the test without having 2 similarly rated UQs, one untreated down and the other CS, and both damp enough to feel a difference. Even then, 2 things would be tested:
1. Does damp CS insulate any better than damp untreated down, or not?
2. If there is enough dampness, does the down fail to loft enough to rise up and solidly contact the back? And if this happens, does a dramatic difference in insulation happen which really has nothing to do with how much, if any, CS insulates better when wet than down does. It has to do with one has a gap under us, and the other does not.

Even if we poured a gallon of water into our hammock or inside shell of a CS UQ, there should be no gap as long as that inner shell- to which the CS is sewn- is snugged up against our backs. (assuming the suspension can overcome the weight of all that water until it drains) Even if the CS loft decreases, what loft you do have will be snugged up against your back. OTOH, reduce that down UQs loft, inside it's 2.5" baffle, from 2.5" to 1.5", and there will be a gap which will be filled by cold air, same as hanging an UQ too loosely. Even if the shell is tight against your back, the down will not be able to loft enough to contact the back. Seems to me anyway. No such gap would show up in a TQ, down or CS. With a TQ, all we would have with dampness is less loft, with down and maybe also with CS. Whatever loft we have with either, gravity should pull it down into contact with our bodies,assuming it normally contacts our bodies.

[cmoulder]

OK I see your point... well I also have a down UQ exact same rating, size, shell material etc.

The problem for me with the test scenario for either CS or down is getting them 'equally damp' (how is this practical?) in identical conditions and then trying to make objective observations when there are too many variables to control, such as suspension adjustment, hang location, wind, etc ad infinitum. Also, the down in the UQ is DownTek treated, so I don't know how that would affect things. In fact, all my UQs are filled with treated down.

And then I'd have to intentionally do a really bad hang in order to get stuff wet, which just isn't in my genes.

So this is not really practical and I'm inclined to stick with hard-won empirical data points gathered over time, i.e. bad experiences on the trail. However, I'll keep this in mind with the CS and down quilts and will take note if I observe this characteristic (sagging or gap filling) in the material.

[cmoulder]

All that said, if non-stop rain and fog are in the forecast for a multi-day trip, I'm taking CS.

But I've never given treated down the 'acid test' so one of the tests on my checklist is to use the Downtek quilts on a foggy, drizzly, nasty overnighter and see what happens.

Closest I came was last year MLK weekend when my 0deg Incubator with Argon 67 shell endured a 14 hr deluge with very gusty wind and got a lot of backsplash. I was frankly amazed that it was practically dry after all that. (Temp dropped from 57°F at midnight to 27°F at 8am.)

[BillyBob58]

All that said, if non-stop rain and fog are in the forecast for a multi-day trip, I'm taking CS.

But I've never given treated down the 'acid test' so one of the tests on my checklist is to use the Downtek quilts on a foggy, drizzly, nasty overnighter and see what happens.

Closest I came was last year MLK weekend when my 0deg Incubator with Argon 67 shell endured a 14 hr deluge with very gusty wind and got a lot of backsplash. I was frankly amazed that it was practically dry after all that. (Temp dropped from 57°F at midnight to 27°F at 8am.)

I have some treated down also. I have never put it to any type of test. From the tests I have seen with treated down vs regular in a water filled jar, I do not see how there could not be very worthwhile differences in real life. Or how the treated down could not match synthetic or close to it. But strangely, I have read from a few knowledgeable people - including a couple of manufacturers - who say that the treated down is not as advertised, and some have even gone back to regular down. All of which leaves me confused.

But from what I have seen in the water jar tests, treated down would not lose significant loft even if quite damp. Thus I would not expect a gap to develop. Assuming that my theory is correct with regular down. But I don't see how it could not be correct, given enough moisture. The question is: how much moisture would be needed- with regular down- before a gap would show up under us that would be noticeable? A gap that would be more noticeable than just a little loss of loft on top? I guess same old story: the longer the trip and greyer the skies, the greater the possibility. None of us are likely to on purpose put that to a side by side test, purposely getting your down wet enough to gap. More likely, it would require a group with equally warm UQs of both types, in severe conditions, with likely condensation, with no VBs, to just see if there was any dif. And, especially, if there was more dif on the bottom than on top.