Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 28
  1. #11

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Valpo, IN
    Hammock
    Towns-End Luxury Bridge
    Posts
    1,477
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Clifton View Post
    Is it a quality issue? I read somewhere that Enlightened Equipment got a bad roll of Robic 7D and it caused some havoc. It seems half the roll was bad.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I'm a Primaloft Gold registered Manufacturer. In order to use that product I needed to register, demonstrate some basic knowledge and agree to abide by certain terms. Products I produce must contain certain branding, labels, and hang tags depending on the product. I'm restricted in how I use or market that product. Point being... using branded material comes with restrictions. These folks take the brand seriously and sometimes aggressively. I work with Kyle, Dutch, and other suppliers... not married to anyone here. I like to use the best stuff I can and each supplier has their specialties. Speaking objectively; running into a branding issue rings true to me.

    Here's a common sense example: Do you think anyone in the cottage world wanted to deal with 'rebranding' Cuben Fiber into Dyneema Composite Fabric? Hell no. It's still a pain in the neck and customers are very confused when they finally go to buy that expensive cuben product they've been dreaming about and it looks like it has been replaced by this DCF stuff.

    Why? ... A company got bought out by a name brand who supplied the "fiber" part of cuben fiber and wanted that brand name highlighted.
    So here's a simple fact; you wanted any more cuben... then you got on board with Dyneema Composite Fabric branding or you're SOL. Overnight and virtually instantly nearly every website and vendor's literature changed. Even outdoor writers or gear reviewers bent to the pressure and wrote articles and news blurbs explaining the change.

    All I read above is that RBTR is dealing with a large corporation and working on getting in line. That's not any top secret info, just real life. The outdoors is becoming a big biz and the need to protect or expand market presence is a fact of life in any industry.

    On the plus side... it is also a bit of a partnership and it's not all bad. Working with a big boy brand name does allow you some access to their R&D, knowledge, testing, and even some enthusiastic support. But the bigger the place the slower it moves so it's always a balancing act of keeping everyone comfortable. Add in third party manufacturers, subcontractors, or even the general public and things get complicated.



    None of this has to do with the issue at hand- but since you mentioned Tim and quality:




    I'm sure others know better than I do the exact number, but I believe there are well under a dozen mills in the world that can make fabric in extremely light weights. (may only actually be one or two)
    As the thread used gets lighter and lighter... the tolerances on the machine get smaller and smaller. If even a single thread miss-feeds, breaks or slips it creates an issue.
    Adding different ripstop grid patterns further complicates things. Watching one of these mills work... it's easy to imagine how difficult 7d yarn would be to work with.

    For rough reference:
    A strand of human hair is about 20d.
    Ultra sheer (see through/barely there) panty hose is 15d.
    A single filament of silk is roughly 1d.

    Tim at EE struggled for years to find a mill that could make 7d shells, until recently they didn't actually exist.
    My understanding is that many full batches were tossed and there can always be issues even if you find a place that will attempt to make them.
    The reason that many MYOG folks are able to find abundant 'seconds' is that making very light material is hard and comes with a fairly high reject rate.
    It's also the reason one could find a simple 1.9/70d nylon for a dollar a yard, while going 1/10th the weight to a 7d costs you 10 times the price.

    I'm not sure there is a mill that has this nailed as even Patagonia gets a fair amount of rejects and tends to shy away from true 7d material with 10d or 15d being more common at their volume.
    Montbell seems to be one of the larger consumers of SUL shell fabrics, though doing primarily apparel they can 'work around' or deal with mill errors more readily. I don't know for sure, but I have been told they have an ownership stake in a mill.

    On top of actually making the stuff... it is then often 'finished' in one or several manners.
    Calendared is the most common, DWR is common too.
    A little too much heat or pressure on the calendaring and you just took your precious batch of SUL fabric and ruined it.
    Gob up the DWR coating and you ruin the fabric.




    The overall point being-
    Be it Tim at Enlightened, Kyle, or Dutch.... or others.
    The materials being used are state of the art in the cottage industry. It's actually pretty shocking. I used to work at The North Face years ago. Patagonia wasn't much different. The big boys cut extremely exclusive deals to produce their bleeding edge materials technology. Even a medium sized company only had access to second or third tier materials. So if you wanted the best your options were very limited. Even if you had access to fabrics you had to buy pallet or even container loads of it to attempt to produce a new product from it. I recall cutting up and reworking these guys products as that was literally the only way to get access to those materials. Can you imagine cutting up a $600 tent just so you could build a lighter bivy sack?

    You can now buy some of the best materials on the planet 'off the shelf' from Kyle or Dutch. Sometimes you can even buy the best. You can even buy some things that these folks are risking their money to develop simply so they can sell it to you. They are not spending money so they can stock the shelves of REI with millions of dollars of their cutting edge exclusive product... just selling it to you directly.
    Tim is likely still the same dude he was a decade ago at backpacking light... tinkering, searching and risking his money to build something lighter, better, cooler.

    While there is a ton of innovation being poured into cottage gear; most of it wouldn't be possible without these materials.
    Five years ago... someone like Tim was doing backflips and design gymnastics to produce a 16 ounce quilt... now you can pull materials off the shelf from Dutch or Kyle and replicate that feat at home.
    Your average cottage vendor top quilt is even with what was barely possible by the best in the world less than a decade ago. An econ or budget quilt from a vendor here is on par with the $500 bags sold by the big boys a few years ago.

    The bridges I can build were delicate near death explosions only suitable for risky adventure racing or FKT trips five years ago... now I get bomber ultralight materials from these guys and get to push even further. Or better yet- make them well enough that your average camper can use them easily and safely.

    There are innovations everywhere for sure... But for the most part these folks are still 'nobodies' in the big corporate world and are way out on the bleeding edge of what's possible. There is no big budget R&D department or other divisions in the company to support risk. You risk as much as these folks pushing things and there will be some issues. Material failures, rejects, bad batches, or getting tripped up by a bigger corporation who doesn't want to risk their name on your innovations or simply wants to step on your toes because they can.

    It's easy to play it safe... much harder to venture out on the edge.

    I'm not on anyone's team. So this isn't a ra-ra this guy is great and I met him at a hang post.
    Fer me; I respect innovation and having the balls to try things.
    The guts to put your own money on the line and the integrity to stand up and say so if you stumble.

    I'm also willing to accept a bit of risk when I join in.
    I know where I can go if I want iron clad guarantees, ridiculous warranties, or safe gear.
    Where to go for marketing BS or a refund of the money I paid when I paid double the value in the first place to buy that insurance policy.

    I'm not trying to single anyone out- more make a general statement.
    Guess I'm a little irked it appears someone put a fake account together at this site to play dirty against a vendor who takes some risks.
    I'd rather not see any rumors start up or reputations damaged.

    If you aren't screwing up, you're not trying. Guess we are getting a bit spoiled. It's easy to forget exactly how far things have been pushed in the last few years. How these vendors pushing each other has led to very large leaps in MYOG/DIY as well as allowing talented folks to produce gear for all of us to use that is occasionally far beyond what even the best and biggest companies in the world currently produce.

    If you find yourself playing teams; might be worth considering that tiny little hammock forums is a drop in the outdoor industry bucket. Not even big enough to count as a team.
    But as a whole; From fabrics, roll goods, hardware, and eventually products built from them some of the most innovative things in the entire outdoor industry are happening here.

    Be proud of all these companies and respectful of what it is they actually do.

  2. #12
    Senior Member arcana73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Buffalo
    Hammock
    Dutchware Chameleon Hexon 1.6
    Tarp
    WB Thunderfly
    Insulation
    HG Incubator 20*
    Suspension
    June Bugs
    Posts
    269
    Ugh. It figures this would happen right around the time I wanted to try out Robic 1.7 for my next hammock build (already have used hexon, argon and hyper-d). Just another in a long series of disappointments that can be applied to my life lol.

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Brooklyn, NYC
    Hammock
    Chameleon
    Tarp
    HG Dyneema
    Insulation
    HG UQ, Custom TQ
    Suspension
    Yes
    Posts
    525
    Robic 1.0 until something better comes along.

  4. #14
    Senior Member QFT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Colorado
    Hammock
    Dutchware 11' netless
    Tarp
    SLD Trail Haven
    Suspension
    Myerstech dyneema
    Posts
    448
    Can anyone summarize the situation? Kinda hard to tell from the original post but I understand that Kyle has to choose his words carefully.

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Valpo, IN
    Hammock
    Towns-End Luxury Bridge
    Posts
    1,477
    Quote Originally Posted by QFT View Post
    Can anyone summarize the situation? Kinda hard to tell from the original post but I understand that Kyle has to choose his words carefully.
    Temporary sales hold because of the use of the ROBIC brand name. Exact specifics on who/what/why are probably out of bounds I'd guess. (only a guess).

    Kyle's summary is probably best. And I read it as the fabric will not be going anywhere, but the name may have to change.


    "For clarity's sake, this is a brand name issue only and in no way affects the quality/performance of the ROBIC fabrics we offer or you currently hang in. Once the naming issue is resolved, one of two things will happen:

    1) We will continue selling ROBIC brand fabrics exactly as we are now.

    2) We will move some of the ROBIC brand fabrics to our high-end MTN series line (at least for a bit).

    Regardless of which one it winds up being, the hammock fabrics (1.2 oz and 1.7 oz Hybrid) will be the exact same ones you've come to know, love, and give 59/60 five star reviews (60/60 if you count the customer who confused meters and yards)."


    Lots of companies use brand name stuff.... the world is a relatively small place.
    I could provide a list of people who use generic Gore-Tex or synthetic insulations under their own 'house brand' name.
    Every grocery store on the planet does house brand generics with name brand companies.
    It's only when you use the name brand in your marketing that you may have an issue.

    For example-
    I can sell a short staple synthetic fill quilt. I could even call it "Just Warm" and claim it's my proprietary insulation.

    I could also sell a Primaloft Gold Synthetic quilt. I'd need the tags, appropriate TM/R symbols and permission to do so.

    They can both be the exact same quilt... just a difference in paperwork and marketing.

    Nearly every daypack on the planet is made by VF corp... only difference between that North Face, Jansport or eastpack is which label and price tag gets put on it.

    I'm not implying Kyle did anything improper. Looks more like some one did something petty.

    Might even think of it like your facebook account getting temporarily shut down because some bitter ex of the person you're currently dating filed a complaint against you.
    So now someone from corporate has to investigate the claim until you're allowed to use your account.

  6. #16
    HandyRandy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Louisiana
    Hammock
    Warbonnet Eldorado (Dream-Tex)
    Tarp
    Thunder/MiniFly
    Insulation
    Wooki, Diamondback
    Suspension
    Dynaweave, Becket
    Posts
    1,315
    Quote Originally Posted by QFT View Post
    Can anyone summarize the situation? Kinda hard to tell from the original post but I understand that Kyle has to choose his words carefully.
    Depends on what part you want summarized, but the big picture is RSBTR is choosing to pause Robic sales while they attempt to sort out some issues that are not related to quality. So no cause for alarm, they are just trying to be transparent with their customers and avoid false rumors. The fine details are all in the above posts.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Gresh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Irmo, South Carolina
    Hammock
    Dream Hammock Dangerbird
    Tarp
    UGQ Winter Dream
    Insulation
    UGQ Full Set
    Suspension
    Cinch Buckles
    Posts
    2,663
    Images
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Looks more like some one did something petty.
    Ain't that always the case?
    I used to be a somebody, now I just camp.

  8. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    East
    Hammock
    Dutch netless Robic 1.2 xl
    Tarp
    WL Tadpole
    Insulation
    EE Enigma 30
    Suspension
    hammock anchor
    Posts
    61
    RBTR is a great supplier. Shipped ROBIC 1.2 xl super fast to Dutch, Dutch makes 11 ft netless super fast, I get awesome lightweight hammock. I really like this fabric, firm feel for the weight.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Tyroler Holzhacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Irgendwo Anders
    Hammock
    DH DL Sparrow/SL Darien
    Tarp
    MacCat/2QZQ mods
    Insulation
    LL/JRB down
    Suspension
    MSH/Whoopies/strps
    Posts
    971
    Images
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    I'm a Primaloft Gold registered Manufacturer. In order to use that product I needed to register, demonstrate some basic knowledge and agree to abide by certain terms. Products I produce must contain certain branding, labels, and hang tags depending on the product. I'm restricted in how I use or market that product. Point being... using branded material comes with restrictions. These folks take the brand seriously and sometimes aggressively. I work with Kyle, Dutch, and other suppliers... not married to anyone here. I like to use the best stuff I can and each supplier has their specialties. Speaking objectively; running into a branding issue rings true to me.

    Here's a common sense example: Do you think anyone in the cottage world wanted to deal with 'rebranding' Cuben Fiber into Dyneema Composite Fabric? Hell no. It's still a pain in the neck and customers are very confused when they finally go to buy that expensive cuben product they've been dreaming about and it looks like it has been replaced by this DCF stuff.

    Why? ... A company got bought out by a name brand who supplied the "fiber" part of cuben fiber and wanted that brand name highlighted.
    So here's a simple fact; you wanted any more cuben... then you got on board with Dyneema Composite Fabric branding or you're SOL. Overnight and virtually instantly nearly every website and vendor's literature changed. Even outdoor writers or gear reviewers bent to the pressure and wrote articles and news blurbs explaining the change.

    All I read above is that RBTR is dealing with a large corporation and working on getting in line. That's not any top secret info, just real life. The outdoors is becoming a big biz and the need to protect or expand market presence is a fact of life in any industry.

    On the plus side... it is also a bit of a partnership and it's not all bad. Working with a big boy brand name does allow you some access to their R&D, knowledge, testing, and even some enthusiastic support. But the bigger the place the slower it moves so it's always a balancing act of keeping everyone comfortable. Add in third party manufacturers, subcontractors, or even the general public and things get complicated.



    None of this has to do with the issue at hand- but since you mentioned Tim and quality:




    I'm sure others know better than I do the exact number, but I believe there are well under a dozen mills in the world that can make fabric in extremely light weights. (may only actually be one or two)
    As the thread used gets lighter and lighter... the tolerances on the machine get smaller and smaller. If even a single thread miss-feeds, breaks or slips it creates an issue.
    Adding different ripstop grid patterns further complicates things. Watching one of these mills work... it's easy to imagine how difficult 7d yarn would be to work with.

    For rough reference:
    A strand of human hair is about 20d.
    Ultra sheer (see through/barely there) panty hose is 15d.
    A single filament of silk is roughly 1d.

    Tim at EE struggled for years to find a mill that could make 7d shells, until recently they didn't actually exist.
    My understanding is that many full batches were tossed and there can always be issues even if you find a place that will attempt to make them.
    The reason that many MYOG folks are able to find abundant 'seconds' is that making very light material is hard and comes with a fairly high reject rate.
    It's also the reason one could find a simple 1.9/70d nylon for a dollar a yard, while going 1/10th the weight to a 7d costs you 10 times the price.

    I'm not sure there is a mill that has this nailed as even Patagonia gets a fair amount of rejects and tends to shy away from true 7d material with 10d or 15d being more common at their volume.
    Montbell seems to be one of the larger consumers of SUL shell fabrics, though doing primarily apparel they can 'work around' or deal with mill errors more readily. I don't know for sure, but I have been told they have an ownership stake in a mill.

    On top of actually making the stuff... it is then often 'finished' in one or several manners.
    Calendared is the most common, DWR is common too.
    A little too much heat or pressure on the calendaring and you just took your precious batch of SUL fabric and ruined it.
    Gob up the DWR coating and you ruin the fabric.




    The overall point being-
    Be it Tim at Enlightened, Kyle, or Dutch.... or others.
    The materials being used are state of the art in the cottage industry. It's actually pretty shocking. I used to work at The North Face years ago. Patagonia wasn't much different. The big boys cut extremely exclusive deals to produce their bleeding edge materials technology. Even a medium sized company only had access to second or third tier materials. So if you wanted the best your options were very limited. Even if you had access to fabrics you had to buy pallet or even container loads of it to attempt to produce a new product from it. I recall cutting up and reworking these guys products as that was literally the only way to get access to those materials. Can you imagine cutting up a $600 tent just so you could build a lighter bivy sack?

    You can now buy some of the best materials on the planet 'off the shelf' from Kyle or Dutch. Sometimes you can even buy the best. You can even buy some things that these folks are risking their money to develop simply so they can sell it to you. They are not spending money so they can stock the shelves of REI with millions of dollars of their cutting edge exclusive product... just selling it to you directly.
    Tim is likely still the same dude he was a decade ago at backpacking light... tinkering, searching and risking his money to build something lighter, better, cooler.

    While there is a ton of innovation being poured into cottage gear; most of it wouldn't be possible without these materials.
    Five years ago... someone like Tim was doing backflips and design gymnastics to produce a 16 ounce quilt... now you can pull materials off the shelf from Dutch or Kyle and replicate that feat at home.
    Your average cottage vendor top quilt is even with what was barely possible by the best in the world less than a decade ago. An econ or budget quilt from a vendor here is on par with the $500 bags sold by the big boys a few years ago.

    The bridges I can build were delicate near death explosions only suitable for risky adventure racing or FKT trips five years ago... now I get bomber ultralight materials from these guys and get to push even further. Or better yet- make them well enough that your average camper can use them easily and safely.

    There are innovations everywhere for sure... But for the most part these folks are still 'nobodies' in the big corporate world and are way out on the bleeding edge of what's possible. There is no big budget R&D department or other divisions in the company to support risk. You risk as much as these folks pushing things and there will be some issues. Material failures, rejects, bad batches, or getting tripped up by a bigger corporation who doesn't want to risk their name on your innovations or simply wants to step on your toes because they can.

    It's easy to play it safe... much harder to venture out on the edge.

    I'm not on anyone's team. So this isn't a ra-ra this guy is great and I met him at a hang post.
    Fer me; I respect innovation and having the balls to try things.
    The guts to put your own money on the line and the integrity to stand up and say so if you stumble.

    I'm also willing to accept a bit of risk when I join in.
    I know where I can go if I want iron clad guarantees, ridiculous warranties, or safe gear.
    Where to go for marketing BS or a refund of the money I paid when I paid double the value in the first place to buy that insurance policy.

    I'm not trying to single anyone out- more make a general statement.
    Guess I'm a little irked it appears someone put a fake account together at this site to play dirty against a vendor who takes some risks.
    I'd rather not see any rumors start up or reputations damaged.

    If you aren't screwing up, you're not trying. Guess we are getting a bit spoiled. It's easy to forget exactly how far things have been pushed in the last few years. How these vendors pushing each other has led to very large leaps in MYOG/DIY as well as allowing talented folks to produce gear for all of us to use that is occasionally far beyond what even the best and biggest companies in the world currently produce.

    If you find yourself playing teams; might be worth considering that tiny little hammock forums is a drop in the outdoor industry bucket. Not even big enough to count as a team.
    But as a whole; From fabrics, roll goods, hardware, and eventually products built from them some of the most innovative things in the entire outdoor industry are happening here.

    Be proud of all these companies and respectful of what it is they actually do.
    Right on Bill...Very well said. HF vendors are the best and better than anything coming out of the REIs of the world. Innovations in the hammock world are happening here with our HF vendors and faster than anywhere else.

  10. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    NW, U.S.A. & Pink Mountain, B.C.
    Hammock
    Ridgerunner
    Tarp
    Big Red Love Tarp
    Insulation
    Varies
    Suspension
    Depends
    Posts
    2,038
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    I'm a Primaloft Gold registered Manufacturer. In order to use that product I needed to register, demonstrate some basic knowledge and agree to abide by certain terms. Products I produce must contain certain branding, labels, and hang tags depending on the product. I'm restricted in how I use or market that product. Point being... using branded material comes with restrictions. These folks take the brand seriously and sometimes aggressively. I work with Kyle, Dutch, and other suppliers... not married to anyone here. I like to use the best stuff I can and each supplier has their specialties. Speaking objectively; running into a branding issue rings true to me.

    Here's a common sense example: Do you think anyone in the cottage world wanted to deal with 'rebranding' Cuben Fiber into Dyneema Composite Fabric? Hell no. It's still a pain in the neck and customers are very confused when they finally go to buy that expensive cuben product they've been dreaming about and it looks like it has been replaced by this DCF stuff.

    Why? ... A company got bought out by a name brand who supplied the "fiber" part of cuben fiber and wanted that brand name highlighted.
    So here's a simple fact; you wanted any more cuben... then you got on board with Dyneema Composite Fabric branding or you're SOL. Overnight and virtually instantly nearly every website and vendor's literature changed. Even outdoor writers or gear reviewers bent to the pressure and wrote articles and news blurbs explaining the change.

    All I read above is that RBTR is dealing with a large corporation and working on getting in line. That's not any top secret info, just real life. The outdoors is becoming a big biz and the need to protect or expand market presence is a fact of life in any industry...
    Interesting essay.

  • + New Posts
  • Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Is Robic Real Robic?
      By FL Rebel in forum Dream Hammock
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 08-18-2018, 00:32
    2. Just a note...
      By rob317 in forum Dutchware
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 10-03-2014, 08:39
    3. Note in the box
      By dfscott in forum Warbonnet Hammocks
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 08-27-2014, 08:55
    4. Another note of thanks to everyone
      By andylee in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: 05-24-2008, 21:01
    5. A note of thanks...
      By Hack in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 12
      Last Post: 05-24-2008, 15:28

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •