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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grisnakh View Post
    The main difference, besides the fill weight, is the interior baffling height within the quilt. Our 30 degree quilts have interior baffling which is 2 inches tall, whereas the 20s have 2.5 inch interior baffling. While that may not seem a like a big difference, the extra loft is what helps determine the temp rating.

    More than anything, overfill helps combat down migration. The higher the fill power of down used, the less you need to achieve the desired loft. In bags that use 600 fill power down, they jam pack the chambers with down, so it doesn't move around a lot. Once you start getting up to 800, 850, or 950 fill power, you need quite a bit less to achieve the same rating. Less down in a fixed chamber volume = more movement. We've used construction techniques to help combat down migration, as do most other vendors out there, but it never hurts to have just a little extra. As most of the responses are telling you, overfill isn't required to meet the temp rating (since we already overstuff the quilts a little more than needed). It's just an option that customers like.

    I hope that helps!
    Sounds like a great reason to just buy a lower power fill down!

  2. #12
    FJRpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevperro View Post
    Sounds like a great reason to just buy a lower power fill down!
    It totally depends on how you use your quilts. If your a car camper, the weight and compressibility of you quilts won’t matter to much. But if your a back packer, it will. That 650 fill power quilt is going to be heavier and bulkier then a 950 of the same size. That means a smaller pack, less weight on your back and faster, longer days on the trail..

    650 fill power down is about $75 a pound. 950 is closer to $200 a pound. You pay for that 40% weight savings...


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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRpilot View Post
    It totally depends on how you use your quilts. If your a car camper, the weight and compressibility of you quilts won’t matter to much. But if your a back packer, it will. That 650 fill power quilt is going to be heavier and bulkier then a 950 of the same size. That means a smaller pack, less weight on your back and faster, longer days on the trail..

    650 fill power down is about $75 a pound. 950 is closer to $200 a pound. You pay for that 40% weight savings...


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I've hiked thousands of miles with a 750-fill down bag. I think the idea that you need to buy a quilt that is 3-ounces lighter to keep your pack weight down is greatly over-valued.

    Most of your wieght savings come from the choice of what not to bring. Back when I did all my long hikes my base weight was 15-16lbs. That was a great base weight back then and you know... it didn't prevent me from doing mulitple 30-mile days all stacked together. I've lost about 4-5lbs off my base weight with the trend towards lighter items but there is an over-emphisis on it by those with OCD. Choosing a quilt with 3-ounce difference in weight has absolutely no consequence in performance on the trail.

    And... there is some value in the down you use having some feather/structure composition. It has a similiar effect of using over-stuff. It gives structure and support to down which prevents shifting and cold spots. Or.... you can spend on more of the $200/pound 950 fill down and add weight by overstuffing to prevent down shifting. My point would be that the delta between an 800 fill product and a 950 fill product overstuffed just became smaller (in terms of performance). So now rather than a 3-4 ounce delta, you have a 1-2 ounce delta.

    A victory for those with small wallets!

  4. #14
    OneClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRpilot View Post
    That means a smaller pack, less weight on your back and faster, longer days on the trail..k
    Always worth it to me for these reasons!

  5. #15
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVKealey View Post
    So, I'm looking at purchasing a top quilt, probably the HG Econ Burrow, and probably in either 20 or 30 degrees. Am I wrong in assuming that the amount of down is the primary factor in the temperature rating of a TQ?

    As an example, a 30 degree Econ Burrow (standard length/wide width) weighs 20.16 oz. A 20 degree (same dimensions) weighs 24.59 oz. So, is the 20 degree the same dimensions, but with 4.43 oz more down? Granted, cost-wise, the 20 degree is about $20 cheaper than the 30 with 4 oz. overfill, so if that were the case, it makes more sense to just get the 20.

    So, if I'm wrong (and that never happens ), and the temp rating isn't a function of the amount of down, what does overfill/stuff actually get you in a TQ? What is the advantage and why does it seem like everyone chooses that option?
    Seems to me, the answer is "sort of, kind of". This discussion is a very frequent one usually with some debate.

    If you get a 20* UQ that weighs about the same(but cheaper than) as a 30* UQ with some down added, then what you get for certain is a quilt rated 10F warmer, because it has more loft, because it has higher baffles which will allow it's extra down(extra compared to the standard 30* model) to loft up higher. IOW, you without question get more loft at a lower price.

    If you instead pay more $ for a 30F with added down, you may or may not actually get more loft. It depends on how much the shell fabric is already over filled and how close it is to being stretched to the max. You may get zero extra loft, or some small fraction of an inch, for an extra oz or 2 of weight + some extra $. Then you get other benefits which are also associated with lower fill power(lower cost) down. Because it is now "denser" just as lower FP down is: i.e., you now have more down in any given baffle/chamber, and less air. The down weighs more than the insulating air, though the down itself might have some insulating qualities. And like lower FP down, it will tend to shift around less. Some seem to think it will lose less loft with dampness. But any chamber will be less dead air(primary insulator) replaced by more down. It will also be less compressible(because there is less air to be forced out) and I hear it may change the length or width of the quilt, for better or worse. And since there is now more down filling the same sized chamber(assuming no added loft), it is the equivalent of lower fillpower. So if you paid premium $ for the highest possible FP to gain the most warmth for a given weight, you are now paying some additional $ in order to effectively lower the fill power. Fill power is a measurement of the amount of space one (1) ounce of down (as shown in the cylinders below) will occupy in cubic inches when allowed to reach its maximum loft. If the loft is the same, but contains more down by weight, that is effectively lower fill power.

    Whatever you get as far as added warmth goes, it will be a bit of a guess, and for more $. If you get a quilt rate warmer to start with, then there will be no guessing. But maybe there are other advantages, lie less shifting and less influence from moisture? I don't know.

    Having said all of that, I admit I have gotten a little over fill on occasion. Since I am usually trying to minimize weight, I'm never sure of that since I am adding more weight and cost without a guaranteed thicker/warmer rating.

    I often wonder if that is not one more unsung advantage of synthetics over down. There is no such thing as over fill with Climashield, for example. Just as there are no baffles, and not much concern about insulation shifting within a baffle or loft shrinking from humidity or body vapor. IOW, if you decide to add more cost and weight to a synthetic quilt or garment, you are virtually guaranteed to be increasing thickness and warmth. All directly proportional to the increased weight. But,of course, down also has it's list of advantages. Probably why I have always had both, and often use a mixture of both on the trail.

  6. #16
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRpilot View Post
    It totally depends on how you use your quilts. If your a car camper, the weight and compressibility of you quilts won’t matter to much. But if your a back packer, it will. That 650 fill power quilt is going to be heavier and bulkier then a 950 of the same size. That means a smaller pack, less weight on your back and faster, longer days on the trail..

    650 fill power down is about $75 a pound. 950 is closer to $200 a pound. You pay for that 40% weight savings...


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    Quote Originally Posted by OneClick View Post
    Always worth it to me for these reasons!
    And after I pay the big $ for the high $, super low weight to warmth ratio down, then I pay additional $ to add more weight back. More weight which may, or may not, actually get me some more warmth! No, actually, I have done this. I might do it again! But probably not. I think ( no guarantees) I will just trust the manufacturer's temp rating, and if I want a warmer rating bad enough to pay a little extra and add a few oz of weight, I will just buy his warmer quilt. Seems that what I am getting/paying for is more guaranteed, and more of a known thing.

    Although, my most recent purchase(dang sales!) bypassed the debate and the decision(do I pay for over fill and add weight, or not? ) by getting a Climashield Apex Ridge Creek for my WBRR from AHE. (should be here any day now! ) Only weighs 20 oz, and conservatively rated for 25F. It will take up a little more room in my pack, but maybe I can find room.

  7. #17
    OneClick's Avatar
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    They are already plenty light weight, especially from sleeping bag days. "Adding back" 1oz (well, I never removed it in the first place to be honest) is nothing for peace of mind when you are sleeping, sedentary, for 8+ hours in the cold.

    I trust the manufacturer, I trust my clothing, I sort of trust my body, I don't trust the weather. Combating humidity, breath condensation, down leakage (very small), wear and tear, etc. It's good insurance for $10 and 1oz...the weight of a small bandana.

  8. #18
    FJRpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevperro View Post
    I've hiked thousands of miles with a 750-fill down bag. I think the idea that you need to buy a quilt that is 3-ounces lighter to keep your pack weight down is greatly over-valued.
    So I wouldn’t disagree with you, but if you spend any time at all on “White Blaze”, your bound to see discussions on how much folks are willing to spend to save a pound.

    It seems like the lighter your base weight, the more expensive it is to drive it down further. If you think a 950 FP quilt is spendy.... check out the Cuban fiber tarps.... Folks pay serious money for those weight savings.

    I agree with those who say that overfill mainly impacts down migration and has little overall effect on warmth.




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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRpilot View Post
    So I wouldn’t disagree with you, but if you spend any time at all on “White Blaze”, your bound to see discussions on how much folks are willing to spend to save a pound.

    It seems like the lighter your base weight, the more expensive it is to drive it down further. If you think a 950 FP quilt is spendy.... check out the Cuban fiber tarps.... Folks pay serious money for those weight savings.

    I agree with those who say that overfill mainly impacts down migration and has little overall effect on warmth.




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    Hey... I'm a big believer in freedom. It isn't up to me or anyone else how you want to expend the fruits of your labor.

    I'm just pointing out that high power down, with overstuff to prevent migration, is an expensive way to save a couple ounces. If you personally feel it is worth it.... go for it.

    If you are poor, and counting your pennies, sleep well knowing that the only price you will pay as a consumer is that you will have to carry the extra weight equivlilent to a couple candy bars as punishment.

  10. #20
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevperro View Post
    Hey... I'm a big believer in freedom. It isn't up to me or anyone else how you want to expend the fruits of your labor.

    I'm just pointing out that high power down, with overstuff to prevent migration, is an expensive way to save a couple ounces. If you personally feel it is worth it.... go for it.

    If you are poor, and counting your pennies, sleep well knowing that the only price you will pay as a consumer is that you will have to carry the extra weight equivlilent to a couple candy bars as punishment.
    What Kevperro said!

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