Experience may be the answer

[Peppy]

Hope no one misunderstands me. I am very happy in a few hammocks I have. Bridges (via Bill) that have cured my search for a main hiking/camping rig that is both lightweight and incredibly comfortable. My newest version (happy medium 1.7 Robic) is not even available to loan in the family. It is mine. I also have a nice DIY netless from Intimidator, and a LSOH warrior that serve me well. I am just always in search of something else. Something to tinker with. Therapy hammocks. I just want to see if I can fool around and find that elusive sweet spot. Would make a nice addition to my collection, a great loaner for friends and family, and a "system" hammock that could scratch an itch on occasion. With a son (who stole my luxury bridge from Bill), 2 sons in laws, an 11 year old grandson who loves to hike/camp, and 6 more grands coming on, I just want a few options. I love this addiction to hammocks. Keeps me sane.

[TominMN]

I think I might be sane...

[Peppy]

I think I might be sane...

That's my story anyway...

[OlTrailDog]

I've been sleeping in one of my XLCs for the last week. I epoxied part of my floor and there is to much odor for me to sleep inside in my Hammocktent, but the shed is too narrow for a HT. So I set up a GE in the shed. This evening I just swapped it out for my Sparrow. For me the comfort sweet spot in the XLC was found when I lengthened the ridge line. Foot end height has not been a fiddly bit for me. I also needed to lengthen the ridge line in the Sparrow to find the comfort zone. I lay at a shallow angle from the ridge line in both.

I will probably sell one of my XLCs, only because I needed to jump on the Sierra Madre Ninox kickstarter just to give it a go. But I am of the same mind as TominMN in believing there will always be a XLC in the stable because I like it that much.

[hutzelbein]

I think the Blackbirds are different enough that people get discouraged when they don't work out right away.

I think so, too. I have tried many different hammocks, including many DIYs, but my Warbonnet hammocks have remained my most comfortable hammocks. I'm a full-timer, and I probably use a Traveler XL, Eldorado or XLC 75% of the time. BUT it took me quite some time to hang my first Blackbird right. There are two critical factors: tension and incline.

Tension:

I usually start with tension. Warbonnet recommends a higher tension than many other hammock makers. When you're lying in the hammock, the ridgeline should not be guitar string tight, but it should also not be loose. I found that the recommended tension (see here) is pretty much perfect. But if that is not possible, I'd rather have it tighter than looser. If you need more tension, shorten the suspension. If you need less tension, lengthen the suspension. Don't even try shooting for a specific angle - it will be right when the tension is right.

Incline:

When your tension is right, it's time to look at the incline. With Warbonnet hammocks, you need to lie fairly close to the head end to find the sweet spot. This means that the head end needs to be lower than the foot end. If you use a Wooki, you can see clearly where you are supposed to lie. If you can't stay on the insulated area, you need to correct the suspension height. Just push one tree strap further up or down the tree. Don't change the suspension length. If you don't use a Wooki, try to keep your feet at or above the tip of the footbox.


Once you get it right, you'll know. At least I did. I had been using my Blackbird half a year before I set it up right the first time. It was an eye opener. But it still took me another half year or so before I could set it up correct reliably.


With regards to the fabric question I agree with Just Bill: if the fabric doesn't work for you, the design won't be able to fix it. However, Warbonnet made a very good fabric choice in my opinion: the 1.7 nylon used for the single layer XL hammocks (Traveler XL, Eldorado, XLC) and all heavy weight double layer hammocks is a fairly light and stretchy 70D fabric. I have tried all 70D fabrics I could lay my hands on, and Warbonnet's has been the stretchiest. At the same time it is a tad less stretchy than all the 40D fabrics currently on the market, which unfortunately give me back aches. If it's still too much stretch for you, both DLs are firmer, with the Heavyweight DL having the least stretch.

Good luck this time round!

[TrailSlug]

Peppy,
Your story sound a lot like mine except that I just can't get comfortable in any gathered end. Last spring and up to this point in the fall I decided that I was going hang no matter what in a gathered end. I used my Warbonnet BB XLC on two trips, my Chameleon on two trips, my SLD Trail Liar on one trip and a back yard hang. These were all ok and all of them were comparable in comfort. Then last weekend I went out with my Warbonnet Ridgerunner. I'm not sure why I fight it as this hammock to me is as comfortable as I can get. I keep thinking I'll cut some weight with the gathered end hammocks and I can definitely cut some volume but I think I've finally decided that the bit of extra weight is more than offset with the comfort, ease of setup, ease of attaching the under quilt and I absolutely love the fact that there are no adjustments to the under quilt. So I thing I may just go with the RR and stop this madness of buying more and more gathered end hammocks

[Peppy]

The biggest issue I've had with a RR is that I don't have any wiggle room. Seems like I can't get on my side unless I'm straight instead of fetal/semi fetal. What I like about a RR is it is a system hammock. Net, spindrift, quilts, (saddle bags are awesome), that's the draw for me on a hammock. Add what you need when you need it. I LOVE the lay in my bridges from JustBill, and they are my main hanging hammocks, but they don't scratch that system itch I have. Separate Fronkey net which works good, and if I could DIY I'd make a sock of some kind, but I don't have those skills. i guess that why an XLC/Eldorado has got my attention again. Don't think I can replace my bridges from Bill, ever, but as I stated before, these are therapy for me. A distraction from the norm that provide down time.

Thanks for the tips everyone. I'll scratch on it a few days and let y'all know what I come up with.

[Just Bill]

PS- Peppy's army of friends and family makes him a great tester! Not only does he like hammocks for their own sake, but he is also balancing his personal preferences with observing others, recommending loaners, and getting feedback along the way. So that's one reason I felt fairly strongly about this one.

What I admire about Brandon and his designs in general is two-fold:
He does take some risks and innovates. The downside to that is your designs can be more polarizing. To a large extent that's a risk you accept as both a designer and a customer. The bonus is you get something unique that works AMAZINGLY well for certain people. I don't know Brandon and haven't talked to him; but I get the sense he's never been too worried about making that type of choice. To me it's worth building specific designs at the risk of them not being universally mediocre. I see quite a bit of that in his product line.

The other thing Brandon does well is close the loop and complete the system.
That takes time, especially if your design is a bit less traditional. I very much understand the appeal of this approach. But you still have to nail the core product first, which Brandon does. Not everyone loves the Ridgerunner, but for those that do his system compliments the core product. His Wookie solves problems other vendors have not... and each piece added adds something with no compromise to the core product.

You can slap a bunch of stuff onto a hammock. It can get clunky. You can't fit your UQ right, your tarp doesn't cover this or that, and you get a swiss army knife problem... you get a ton of stuff in a package... but none of it really works great individually. At the chili hang we were discussing an UQ problem for a hanger there. I suggested some of Dutch's quilt hooks to use as a pick me up... to which my fellow hanger immediately pointed out an issue- 'What about the bugnet?" Exactly. Every little thing you add to the core product effects some other part in some way. We've all had hammocks where adding B and C to A meant something didn't work right anymore or we had to go find D and E to resolve the problem.
Designers call that a swiss army knife problem. All the parts and pieces work okay, but none of them work as well as the individual tools they replace.

Brandon doesn't have swiss army problems. He has harmonious systems that simply work with the core product.
One can greatly admire that philosophy; but still find the core product doesn't work for them.

It's okay if that's the case. If anything for me; I respect the choices not to compromise to broaden appeal.

Peppy is an aficionado, as are many here. It's acceptable to admire a design and also acceptable to admit it might not work for you without loss of admiration for the product.

I'm fairly sure that's what has happened here; appreciation for a great design is overwhelming the simple fact the shoe doesn't quite fit. I get that it fits lots of people mindbogglingly well, but for some it doesn't. Change that up... and it will fit nobody. For those who are fans of Brandon's work, be thankful he didn't water his stuff down to win over everyone but stuck it out and built great stuff that happens to fit you.


FWIW- I 'sell' as many ridgerunners as my own bridges.
If a customer wants a system- I don't offer one, call Brandon or Jacks.

If a customer is on a tighter budget- RR are cheaper.

If someone is on the fence- I always tell them to try a RR first. It's a good solid product with years of production and flushing out behind it. So popular that other vendors have designed quilts to fit it, tarps to go with it, and other add ons. It's a good product.

If you weigh over 250, Well nobody else does that so your SOL on options.

If you're under 250 and it doesn't fit, then call me.
I think that the core product is coming together, next comes the system.


As an ultralight guy the question 'where is the bugnet' was always answered by 'The .5 ounce head net in your pocket works' and runs about free-ninety nine, why do you want to give me more money for something I don't need.

But I get it... this gears for you.

Any product, no matter how amazing or ingenious that doesn't work for the individual who is using it is a failure.

No sense getting worked up over that simple fact.

[BillyBob58]

Peppy,
Your story sound a lot like mine except that I just can't get comfortable in any gathered end. Last spring and up to this point in the fall I decided that I was going hang no matter what in a gathered end. I used my Warbonnet BB XLC on two trips, my Chameleon on two trips, my SLD Trail Liar on one trip and a back yard hang. These were all ok and all of them were comparable in comfort. Then last weekend I went out with my Warbonnet Ridgerunner. I'm not sure why I fight it as this hammock to me is as comfortable as I can get. I keep thinking I'll cut some weight with the gathered end hammocks and I can definitely cut some volume but I think I've finally decided that the bit of extra weight is more than offset with the comfort, ease of setup, ease of attaching the under quilt and I absolutely love the fact that there are no adjustments to the under quilt. So I thing I may just go with the RR and stop this madness of buying more and more gathered end hammocks

Now this makes extreme sense, and I come to a similar conclusion. Except I also include my JRB bridges, the deep one(original) and the less deep one, the UL. The main way that these ( oh, and don't forget, the 90* Hammock Tent) make so much more sense to me is: forget about all of those tricks, just get in and lay down. Done. Also, for me, very easy to insulate with few of the strange UQ problems that you see so many threads about around here over the years.

Yes, the bridges have their downsides. They have pros and cons. But I have never been uncomfortable in one, of any brand or model. Some people complain of shoulder squeeze, but even that has not been a problem for me once I got used to a very simple adjustment in how my arms are positioned.

The 90* might be the best of all worlds, having fewer of the negatives of the bridge, and being if anything even a little more comfy(at least equal to a bridge, more shoulder room), and probably the most comfy of any hammock for side sleeping. And no spreader bars needed! But I do find it a bit of a hassle inflating, inserting and removing and deflating a pad now that I am so used to UQs. And I have not yet figured out if I can use quilts successfully. Sure is comfy though. And again, just get in: done.

So why would I ever bother with another GE, or trying to get the perfect hang on a WBBB per the OP(or other GEs)? Well, I still love my HHSS. I still love a PeaPod if I can ever find another one. I have an Inferno UQ that really has some cool features and has a really good fit. I love being able to close doors on my tarp, and not having to rig a tarp over a 90* HT or dealing with tarp vs spreader bars. And, as far as back sleeping, rather than trying to find that sweet spot and/or hang the foot at the perfect height, just use a darn big, fat knee pillow. If you don't have enough unworn clothes to fill up a fat and cushy enough sack, then use that bag inflated with air trick. This- at least for back sleeping- solves a plethora of problems, and makes the GE hammock used rather irrelevant. And a big, fat knee pillow will certainly help any issues with a WBBB, allowing one to enjoy it's other benefits. So, GE hammocks remain in play, for me.

[Peppy]

Been a while, but wanted to give an update. My Lux bridges from Bill are amazing, and they hold a dear spot on my heart, and gear closet, but I finally found bliss in a WB design. Picked up a used El Dorado, Lightweight DL, and it is my go-to gathered end right now. I fussed, adjusted, lifted, lowered, etc, until I was blue in the face, and then magic took place (or the proper personal tweak, almost the same thing). A mini Biner on the RL, 4 simple wraps, and this has become a 1st time every time setup for me. I have width (62”), length (hair short of 11’ with the whipping), an amazing balance of stretch and support, and arguably, one of the best experiences I’ve had in a GE hammock. FINALLY! Just goes to to show you, never stop tweaking. It’s not about finding the perfect hammock, (okay, for some it may still be), but I believe you can be just as happy by tweaking ANY quality hammock until the magic happens for you. It’s been a long road, but thank you Warbonnet for a tremendous design! (And it doesn’t hurt that it has so many toys to add to it!)