I would only use vapor barriers for winter trips longer than 2-3 nights, since I don't find that I lose loft in my sleeping insulation from moisture accumulation during a typical weekend trip. I also make sure I am not exhaling into my bag/quilt as that would make the moisture accumulation much worse. Some times this means rigging up some kind of fleece "nosewarmer". Talking low teens or colder.
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I just wanted to report on my vapor barrier experiments the past two nights. I used the following gear to hang from trees in my back yard: Warbonnet Blackbird with bugnet, Journey tarp with doors closed, Hammock Gear 0° UQ, and modified Costco throw TQ. I have been cold using the TQ when temps fall into the 20's and wanted to see if I could get it lower. For my vapor barrier I used painters coveralls, vinyl gloves and waterproof socks with light fleece lined long johns underneath. The coveralls are a little breathable so they aren’t a true VB, but I wanted to use stuff I already had.
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On Friday night I wore a fleece jacket over the VB clothing, fleece balaclava, thin liner gloves and down booties. Temps here in MA were right around freezing when I went to bed and dropped throughout the night to 24° and I am happy to report that I stayed warm most of the night although I started getting a little bit cool around 4:00 when the temp bottomed out, but it wasn’t too bad and I went back to sleep. I had the balaclava over my mouth and nose and that area was soaked in the morning but nothing else was wet that I noticed. Of particular interest to me is that my feet stayed warm. They are normally cold even when I wear loose wool socks and down booties.
Saturday night temps were supposed to be colder so I swapped the fleece jacket for my heavy wool anorak and added a pair of sweatpants over the VB. It was 22° when I went to bed, the lowest I’ve ever had the TQ. No problem. I woke up at 3:00 feeling a little cool. I checked and the temp was 17°. At 4:00 it was 16°, now officially the coldest temp I’ve ever slept outside in. I was getting a little colder and couldn’t fully fall back asleep. At 5:00 I started getting some chills and saw it was now 15°. An hour later nature was calling so I got up and went inside. The mouth area of the balaclava was very wet and it had run down into the hood of the anorak, but otherwise everything was dry. Both feet stayed warm again even though when I got up I found that one of the down booties had fallen off during the night.
Overall I would call it a success and with a true vapor barrier instead of the painters coveralls I might have been more comfortable. The lowest I had gotten this TQ before was 23° so I bettered that by 8°, and while wearing the wool anorak I was comfortable probably 10° lower than I have been without the VB.
UMB: sweeeeet! That sounds like a big improvement to me. Now here is what would make for even more useful info: if you had previously weighed your quilts and or measured loft the next morning, and then did the same thing after using at even colder temps but with the VB. I bet you would see a difference. Hey, welcome to the club of weird, but warm and dry, folks!
Something I meant to ask you about: "I have been cold using the TQ when temps fall into the 20's......On Friday night I wore a fleece jacket over the VB clothing, fleece balaclava, thin liner gloves and down booties. Temps here in MA were right around freezing when I went to bed and dropped throughout the night to 24° and I am happy to report that I stayed warm most of the night although I started getting a little bit cool around 4:00 when the temp bottomed out, but it wasn’t too bad and I went back to sleep. I had the balaclava over my mouth and nose and that area was soaked in the morning but nothing else was wet that I noticed. Of particular interest to me is that my feet stayed warm. They are normally cold even when I wear loose wool socks and down booties.
Saturday night temps were supposed to be colder so I swapped the fleece jacket for my heavy wool anorak and added a pair of sweatpants over the VB. It was 22° when I went to bed, the lowest I’ve ever had the TQ. No problem. I woke up at 3:00 feeling a little cool. I checked and the temp was 17°. At 4:00 it was 16°, now officially the coldest temp I’ve ever slept outside in. I was getting a little colder and couldn’t fully fall back asleep. At 5:00 I started getting some chills and saw it was now 15°. An hour later nature was calling so I got up and went inside. The mouth area of the balaclava was very wet and it had run down into the hood of the anorak, but otherwise everything was dry. Both feet stayed warm again even though when I got up I found that one of the down booties had fallen off during the night.............".
So, when you say you have been cold in the TQ when temps fall into the 20s, were you wearing similar layers to what you used in the last 2 reported tests with the VB?
But either way, very interesting about the warm feet, which are normally cold! I also never get cold feet, I suppose due to various tricks I have tried, which often includes VB socks. As well as plenty of head insulation, probably more than needed with JRB down hood over a fleece/pile balaclava(old saying: if your feet are cold, put on a hat, right?) In fact, I have had over heated, sweating feet at my all time record of 6F, while wearing lined VB socks under light wool socks and Polarguard booties. I just did not bother to remove any layers and all my insulation still stayed dry.
The fleece jacket was the same as I wore when I was cold in the upper twenties without the VB. When I took the TQ down to 23° without the VB and was cold, I was wearing a packable down jacket. I think the wool anorak I wore this weekend is similar in warmth but is longer so it provided more protection below the waist.
FYI - I compared the 'Frogg Togg UL rain suit' ($20 now from Walmart) to 'Stephenson Warmlite VB' ($60 for shirt alone) a couple years ago and didn't see a difference in performance. I wear the VB next to the skin and a fleece insulation layer on top of the VB for week long trout fishing trips in the spring (usually 20F to 40F). Also, the rain suit is dual purpose if needed, the Warmlite is not. (Bread bags over thin socks for the feet - Rain suit hood up at night with a warm knit hat over it.)
Frogg Togg https://www.walmart.com/ip/Frogg-Tog...362412dc581113
Warmlite https://www.walmart.com/ip/Frogg-Tog...362412dc581113
The Warmlite has more 'fuzzy stuff' inside making it more comfortable and is tailored to fit better, but the thin layer of 'fuzzy stuff' in the Frogg Togg is sufficient and the materials are over sized so it can be used as rain gear over your clothing if needed.
Last edited by oldpappy; 12-11-2019 at 10:26.
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Good info! You double posted the Frog Togg link.
https://www.warmlite.com/product/no-sweat-shirt/
https://www.warmlite.com/product/vap...o-sweat-pants/
https://www.warmlite.com/product/vapor-barrier-socks/
Good info there. For any one that already has that rain gear, or perhaps anything similar, or even was willing to buy some, it would certainly be the inexpensive way to put it to the test. Plus it would have the significant benefit of being dual purpose. Rain gear by day, VB by night. Assuming you could get the surface adequately dried off by bed time.
Isn't Frogg Toggs supposed to be pretty breathable? So it seems possible that WPB rain gear becomes much less breathable if worn under insulation. Perhaps doing so messes up a temp differential which is a part of how WPB is supposed to work? I have no idea, just guessing. But, Stephenson Warmlite has always claimed that so called WPB rain gear would work as a VB. Which always seemed like an odd thing for them to publicize considering they sell VBs, I guess they were never concerned with the potential loss of business. Very honest of them.
There are other examples at HF of folks using the WPB rain gear successfully as a VB. Kwpapke, in his HHSS record setting minus 26ºF hang/backpack with Shug well over 10 years ago, used his WPB rain gear as a VB, along with clothing layers, to push a 0ºF bag to be plenty warm at those colder temps. Wisenber(sp?) I think has also done that. Both reported quilts that seemed drier and loftier than normal after cold nights. When I set my PB of +6ºF, inside a sock, which ended up very dry, for my legs- since I had no VB pants- I wore my TNF Hydrovent WPB pants. Though I ended up very dry(with true VBs torso and feet), it might be the legs don't put out all that much vapor compared to torso and feet.
But apparently, it will work at least enough to help significantly. Though I have never understood how, since I have many times proven that I can dry out damp clothing(usually from sweat) when it is worn under WPB rain gear. One example of which I have written about here, when I tested a Polarguard rain jacket with a claimed WPB shell(Pertex Endurance?), I wet the inside pretty good in the sink, lightly squeezed it out, then immediately wore on a cold hike in light rain, and it was pretty much 100% dry after a brisk 30 minute walk. So it seems apparent that it lets vapor pass. Yet, it would seem, if I wore it under other insulation, it would act as a VB(as would as any of my other WPB rain gear).
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