Page 2 of 30 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 296
  1. #11
    TxAggie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Pasadena, MD
    Hammock
    Half-wit (3 season), Chameleon (win
    Tarp
    Superfly, Thunderf
    Insulation
    EE Revelation 20*,
    Suspension
    Whoopie!
    Posts
    1,394
    Quote Originally Posted by OutandBack View Post
    You asked for opinions so here is mine. Everything below the tarp should be as breathable as possible.
    Using vapor barriers is complicated and if you do it wrong you are in for a wet cold and clammy night.

    If you are doing a K2 expedition sure go for it. But general winter camping in the US its just an expensive pain in the arse.
    The Adirondack Mountaineering School requires VBL socks and recommends VB liners for all winter overnight trips.

  2. #12
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Tupelo, MS
    Posts
    10,159
    Images
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by Emageddon View Post
    Hello

    for winter hanging how do you determine when to use a vapor barrier? What kind of barrier do you use? Whatís your go to? I am reading lots of conflicting info on this.

    Do you use one when itís a survival situation only? Or do you always have a bag liner?

    Ok experts - let it rip!
    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    Billybob58 will be along shortly - he likes vapor barriers.
    Yep, here I am! LOL!

    Unless I have an abundance of insulation, and/or it is going to be a short trip or warm, I just sort of use them all of the time. More and more as the years roll by. I search for more circumstances in which to use them, sleeping or even hiking(that is xtra tricky! But boy will it keep your insulation dry!)

    I do not use bag liners. I think I would find that easy to get tangles up in, and rough if I had to get up much to pee. (coming out of a VB can be a brisk experience!

    What I have used more than any other is a space blanket(~ 2 oz ) mostly as designed in the HH Super Shelter, where it goes between the hammock and the HH open cell foam pad, sil-nylon undercover, and any other insulation I might choose to put down there. Also, I used to put the same space blanket(also a VB) between my hammock and the lower level of my Pea Pod. Bot always work like a charm for me, adding a lot of warmth AND keeping all of my insulation very dry compared to folks I was camping with. Also, I have used VB socks on occassion since the early 80s.

    In more recent years, I have started using Stephenson's Warmlight VB shirt and socks with Fuzzy Stuff lining- rather than wearing a thin base layer under the VB, it doesn't need that due to the lining. I love these items! I have not obtained their pants yet for some reason(their stuff is more expensive than I remember from a few years ago), and just wear the least breathable rain pants I can find, over thin long Johns. Apparently, even the "breathable" rain pants work fairly well.

    When I set my personal best( southern boy here) of 6F (with no tarp), I credit the VBs in large part- but also a frost bib- with the fact that not only was I VERY warm with only the HH pad + kidney/torso pads(about another 3 oz) under me and a light down TQ( A Golight 20, but most thought it was more like a 30-40F, only 20 oz size long and pretty wide), and whatever the extra few oz of the HH top cover added for warmth- but I was bone dry inside a sock. No condensation at all except on my frost bib. No hint od damp in any insulation, no decrease of loft, no increase in weight from condensed vapor. This was really very minimal insulation for how cold it was and how warm I was- could have easily gone another 10F or more lower. https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-VBs-and-HHSSs

    Now I don't often read here about folks being that dry inside hammock socks, although I think kwpapke was that time with Shug that he set the record here of minus 27F in an augmented HHSS. ( and BTW, he had a VB space blanket in use). But here is one I don't think I have ever heard of: having feet over heating and sweating all night at 6F. There are a whole lot of tales of cold feet when using a hammock, but rarely hot feet near zero, if ever. I had VB socks, wool socks, and some synthetic booties. I was too lazy to get up and remove the booties, and I could tell my feet were sweating. But next morning, they did not feel as wet as I thought they would when the VB socks came off as I thought they were going to.

    I figure my SWL VB shirt and socks add zero weight, since I may ell replace 1 thin layer with them. Obviously using rain gear adds no weight, since you probably have that with you anyway. So, a thin layer of maybe 8 oz- or about zero oz if it replaces 1 garment- can add 15-20F AND keep the other insulation dry. Yes, I am a fan, though I think I am probably a bit odd in that department. Most folks want nothing to do with it, I think. But there are a few of us.

    I think if you learn the theory, how to correctly use them you will be well rewarded. BTW, since I am usually quick to vent, I find them very comfy to sleep in or wear, thanks to the lining. I usually am not wet. Usually if I get wet, I am overheating and need to vent or remove a layer.

    Learning to hike in them is the real challenge. Venting is even more important. Still one cold dy, instead of hiking in a fleece jacket over a shirt- experience shows I will almost always sweat hiking up steep slopes even when it is cold- this time I wore a cotton shirt over a VB shirt. When it was time to go home, I was running late so I started moving fast. I could tell I was over heating and needed to remove the cotton shirt, but I said to heck with it. And just kept on going. By the time I got to the truck, I was sweating a bunch. But here is the take away: my cotton shirt was bone dry. I just removed it and unzipped the VB shirt to start cooling down. How many folks hiking hard under a pack on a cold day still sweat? A bunch. And when they stop for a break, in those wet layers? Well, if you are like me you know that does not feel good. But even with a cotton shirt- the worst thing to get wet fom any cause- it made no difference that I had on a cotton shirt, because it was dry.

    Yes, I was sweating in the VB, and that is not pleasant. And yes, I often sweat without a VB, as I probably would have on this day. The difference is where that sweat goes to: kept next to my skin until I vent it, or going right in to my insulation. If it is very important that I keep dry insulation, I choose to keep it next to my skin if I must sweat. A bunch of know ho unpleasant, even dangerous, it can be once you stop exercising to rest, with those wet from sweat garments around us. And then we put our big coat over the wet ones because we start getting old, and where does all that moisture go now?

  3. #13
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Tupelo, MS
    Posts
    10,159
    Images
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    The theory behind VBs is that when worn directly against your body, they trap your perspiration between your body and the VB. This prevents your perspiration from migrating into your outer clothing and/or your sleeping bag....keeping the bag/outer clothing dry and providing full insulation value. Makes sense in theory provided that you do not become chilled.
    All correct, seems to me. But, why would you get chilled(unless you do it wrong, of course). A little moisture against the skin hurts nothing. It might not feel the best, depending on what kind of layer is between VB and skin, but it has no negative effect on body warmth, unless:
    1: it evaporates, causing evaporative cooling, the way an AC or swamp cooler works. Evaporative cooling can be very significant, and is stopped 100% by VBs
    2: it gets into your insulation. Which true VBs stop 100%.

    With the SWL VBs, I often don't even feel damp or even clammy, though I have sometimes actually sweated in them. But if I do get damp, that is not the best feeling(though way better than shivering), though I think I have gotten used to it. It doesn't feel the best, but if you are damp, it virtually guarantees you are actually warmer, not wet and cold. Because that wet next to your skin is wet that didn't evaporate and/or get into your insulation day after day.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-05-2018 at 00:13.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SW Ontario, Canada
    Hammock
    WBBB 1.7 SL
    Tarp
    WB Superfly
    Insulation
    WB and UGQ
    Suspension
    Whoopies or Straps
    Posts
    7,108
    Images
    241
    I remember reading somewhere years ago that a VB creates a microclimate next to the skin and actually reduces the amount of perspiration you produce. Don't know why I remember that little tidbit but it just popped into my head as I was reading this thread.
    Don't let life get in the way of living.

  5. #15
    oldpappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Hammock
    Argon 11 ft or HH BKUL
    Tarp
    Asym DIY Pole Mod
    Insulation
    DIY, Jarbrige,HHSS
    Suspension
    Lashings
    Posts
    1,288
    Images
    27
    VB usage is an interesting subject with lots of confusing theories and variables.
    During the winter of 2014 several HF folks experimented with VBs and hammock camping. Good reading for a rainy day:
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ht=brave+souls

    The best thing to do is get a basic understanding then experiment in a safe environment for your particular climate/usage. You might be interested in starting a winter 2018 thread to share what you learn.
    Enjoying the simple things in life -
    Own less, live more.

  6. #16
    Member DownYonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Husk, NC
    Hammock
    Chameleon Wide
    Tarp
    WB Superfly
    Insulation
    AHE Jarbidge UQ
    Suspension
    Beetle/Dyneema/15'
    Posts
    79
    Images
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    All correct, seems to me. But, why would you get chilled(unless you do it wrong, of course). A little moisture against the skin hurts nothing.
    Hum...67yo....swollen prostate....crawl out of hammock no less than twice nightly....usually three times. It's 22*. By the time I'm done the moisture against my body feels like ice cubes.

  7. #17
    TxAggie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Pasadena, MD
    Hammock
    Half-wit (3 season), Chameleon (win
    Tarp
    Superfly, Thunderf
    Insulation
    EE Revelation 20*,
    Suspension
    Whoopie!
    Posts
    1,394
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Yep, here I am! LOL!

    ?
    Quick question about the Warmlite socks: do you wear an additional layer under them or is the fuzzy lining enough? Also, how long do the socks seem to last? Iíve been reading that some socks have a tendency to delaminates fairly quickly, but I havenít seen any brands mentioned.

    FYI, Warmlite has a package deal right now for a full set of clothing : socks, pants, shirt, and gloves.

  8. #18
    Senior Member drifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Gulf Coast MS
    Hammock
    Left Handed WBBB, SB Pro
    Tarp
    Superfly
    Insulation
    DIY UQ/TQ
    Suspension
    DIY SLS
    Posts
    521
    Images
    10
    Tried it, did not like it. But to each his own.
    My ego said, SURE you can.
    Half way in my body said OH NO YOU CAN'T

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

    My YouTube

  9. #19
    OneClick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wasteland that is IN
    Hammock
    Dutch Argon 10.5'
    Tarp
    Anything Warbonnet
    Insulation
    Hammock Gear
    Suspension
    WB Straps+Buckles
    Posts
    11,265
    Images
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by TxAggie View Post
    I started looking at VB clothing and liners last year with some great responses. This will help get you started.

    Vapor Barrier Clothing
    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...7&share_type=t
    Good thread!

    Bottom line, they are totally necessary for my feet. Anywhere else and I don't really need it.

    Bare foot > Rab VB socks > wool sock > boot. Warm, dry, not a drop of dampness in the boot insulation (which is very hard to dry once damp). Biggest game-changer ever.

  10. #20
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Tupelo, MS
    Posts
    10,159
    Images
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    I remember reading somewhere years ago that a VB creates a microclimate next to the skin and actually reduces the amount of perspiration you produce. Don't know why I remember that little tidbit but it just popped into my head as I was reading this thread.
    Yes, I have read that claim going back at least 30+ years from Stephenson's Warmlight(SP?). I first started using VB socks back then(in 1983 actually), and that was part of their claim, at least re: insensible perspiration(not of course sweat from overheating). I have also read most recently that this theory is not correct, that insensible perspiration is not regulated by the body. All I know is, if don't overheat and sweat, and depending on which VBL/next to skin combo I am using, I will either get a little clammy feeling and that is as far as it goes, it doesn't get any worse even after 8+ hours, OR I won't even get that. I have actually sat around in my house(whatever room temp was, maybe 70) or outside on just barely cool days, with a SWL VB shirt on and no other layers, and I don't even feel clammy. And if I do feel damp with some other combo, it only goes so far unless I over heat. Which I have done, just ignoring the sweat, still don't get cold, in fact am warmer even with the sweat(which is probably why I am sweating in the first place: I'm way warm). But usually, only a little clammy at worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldpappy View Post
    VB usage is an interesting subject with lots of confusing theories and variables.
    During the winter of 2014 several HF folks experimented with VBs and hammock camping. Good reading for a rainy day:
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ht=brave+souls

    The best thing to do is get a basic understanding then experiment in a safe environment for your particular climate/usage. You might be interested in starting a winter 2018 thread to share what you learn.
    Next to last sentence: very well said. Just put it to the test in a safe environment, find out for yourself what works and what doesn't!

    Of course, many will never have any need of any of this. If you are confident your quilts or clothing are already more than warm enough for any conditions you will put them through, and you are confident that you will never suffer enough loss of loft from days on the trail with dew point within the shell and lack of sun and/or time for drying to cause problems, then there probably really is no need for a VB.

    OTOH, if you find yourself deep in wilderness and many days from your car or a place to take refuge and dry out, and you are worrying about lack of sunshine for drying, if your gear does NOT have a 10 or 20* reserve over expected or reasonably possible temps and you are looking for an easy way to boost them, or you find your feet and socks are wet from sweat and cold despite being well insulated, or if you just want an emergency back up just in case................... well, if any or all of that applies to you, VBs certainly perform as expected in my experience. A thin, light, cheap (or can be cheap) layer can dramatically boost the lower temp limits of any gear, while performing the magic of keeping gear dry from the inside, thus keeping it warmer longer. If done right- and that ain't hard to do- it works every time just as the science would predict. Stopping evaporative cooling 100%- while all other methods probably don't stop it at all- has an amazing impact on warmth. Dryer down over many snowy or rainy/overcast days doesn't hurt either!
    We have not heard from that guy from Michigan(?) in a long time- cryofthewolf or cryofthewild(?), He was always using gear way beyond it's rating, using HHSSs way below their rating and below zero F, and was tough enough that he seemed to thrive anyway. But he also often had ice between the shells of his down bag! Repeat: ICE IN HIS DOWN! Truly I think anyone in those circumstances would benefit hugely from VB clothing. And if it was me, I'd much rather risk feeling a little clammy than maybe cold and then find ice in my down. What about Y'all?
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-06-2018 at 09:22.

  • + New Posts
  • Page 2 of 30 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. My Thoughts on Vapor Barriers
      By Youngblood in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 109
      Last Post: 03-01-2018, 23:39
    2. Moisture Barriers
      By PreciousPixie in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 21
      Last Post: 09-06-2015, 08:35
    3. Replies: 51
      Last Post: 04-25-2015, 09:21
    4. Vapor Barriers
      By Jolly in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 23
      Last Post: 12-09-2012, 09:26
    5. Reflective Barriers
      By TeeDee in forum Bottom Insulation
      Replies: 42
      Last Post: 12-10-2010, 14:07

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •