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  1. #21
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxAggie View Post
    Quick question about the Warmlite socks: do you wear an additional layer under them or is the fuzzy lining enough? Also, how long do the socks seem to last? I’ve been reading that some socks have a tendency to delaminates fairly quickly, but I haven’t seen any brands mentioned.

    FYI, Warmlite has a package deal right now for a full set of clothing : socks, pants, shirt, and gloves.
    I wear them next to skin, no extra layers needed at all. I think my extra large shirt weighs about 8 oz, so it can possibly replace a next to skin layer if more than one is usually taken for layering. But if used to replace 1 layer, consider that it will probably add a whole lot more warmth than a similar weight layer.

    As for wear, I have not put mine to much hard use, mostly only sleeping in them. But the socks I got from Patagonia(unlined) in the 1980s are, far as I know, still going. At least they were not all that many years ago, had a few small holes in them which were patched. They were usable for decades of light use. one of my Stephenson's stuff is any where near that old. I couldn't really say when I got them, the shirt maybe 5 years ago, or longer? Socks/gloves maybe a bit newer? All of it was used in my Jan 2014 personal best, so at a minimum that old. It is all like brand new.

    I have hiked or worked in the yard occasionally in the shirt, but mostly I have just sat around or slept in them. So not much wear and tear, but all is good so far.

  2. #22
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneClick View Post
    Good thread!

    Bottom line, they are totally necessary for my feet. Anywhere else and I don't really need it.

    Bare foot > Rab VB socks > wool sock > boot. Warm, dry, not a drop of dampness in the boot insulation (which is very hard to dry once damp). Biggest game-changer ever.
    There you go, you have proved the utility to yourself. Plus, you can no doubt also see that, even though you do not need them other than for socks, if you did need them(see long list in previous post of why some of us might want to add them rather than, say, hauling an additional TQ for stacking, or buying a new warmer quilt for an extra 20F for 1 night or unexpected severe cold snaps), I'm sure you can see that they would work just as they do under your socks.

    Question: VB socks while hiking would be the toughest possible conditions as far as getting wet under the VB socks from sweat (and possibly also condensation I suppose, but sweat mainly). So how miserable is that compared to without VB socks?

  3. #23
    DownYonder's Avatar
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    Don't know if this has been shared but I thought it was very informative even though a bit off topic:
    http://www.survivalbased.com/surviva...e-a-navy-seal/

  4. #24
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    For me- as for Fronkey and Andrew Skurka before me- hiking has been the new frontier for me in recent years, especially as I am in the south. Sleeping or sitting around camp is easy, but to avoid a ridiculous amount of over heating and trapped sweat while hiking requires a lot of skill, if it can even be done.

    Th old saying of "You sweat, you die" about cold weather survival, no longer applies with VB use. With VBs, you sweat, you stay just as warm,it makes no difference. It will be a blast of cold when you try to come out of the VBs, but that quickly passes as I get into warm clothes, and the VB itself always drys very quickly. But as long as you are in the VB, cold caused by sweat is not a problem. But, it would be something I would prefer to avoid just because feeling wet is something I would rather avoid. Better than shivering from cold, but better still without all of that sweat. And if very active, that part is tricky indeed.

    But, consider the opposite: a long hard hike in cold weather, perhaps in weather requiring rain or wind protection as well. Wearing just enough layers to stay adequately warm. But if it is me, and I am hiking up hill with a pack, I am going to sweat somewhere on my body. Guaranteed on my back next to the pack.

    Stop for a hot lunch break. And suddenly I am quite cold, due to damp insulation from sweat, now that I am not cranking out the heat. So I throw another layer on, but if I am not careful it will now also absorb moisture from the already damp layers. Get to camp as the sun is setting and repeat all of that. Then repeat over a period of days. I've been there, have any of you folks? I know plenty of hiker have been there.

    In fact, I am recalling a winter group hang event at Mt. Rogers from some years back. This time, the weather turned nasty with lots of wet snow just as folks were parking and starting their hike in. A few folks, whose hike was timed with the worst of the weather, had some close calls with getting damp under their rain gear, cold and then the start of hypothermia, and never even made it to the camp spot, tried to pitch a camp along the way, but at some point had to abandon all that to get back to sleep in their truck with it's heater, until the roads were cleared the next day and they were able to drive down the mountain.

    I'm don't remember what kind of clothing they were wearing, other than good rain gear which still did not keep them dry enough, but I had always wondered if they were dressed like I used to while either cross country skiing or hanging from an Alpine ski chair lift in a raging snow storm as the wind bounced us around, would they have done any better? And that was always some sort of Gore Tex or clone parka and pants with layers of 100% synthetic under the shells.

    But now I am also wondering if skilled VB use would have helped their situation? These are some things I have been experimenting with in recent winters: say it is a cold, windy day where I might hike in a thin synthetic or wool base layer and a fleece jacket. This will keep me warm enough while moving, but if going fast at all or trying to keep a good pace up a steep hill, I will probably sweat. If I stop for very long, I will definitely need another layer, maybe a thick one, since my LJs and fleece are damp. But here is something I have done: Start out hiking in JUST the SWL lined VB shirt. Often I have found that just right and I don't have much problem with sweat. If I feel some sweat starting up(you are always aware of the sweat with a VB since it is not wicked away into your insulation), then I unzip and start venting. Often this VB shirt is enough by itself. If I have had to add a layer, and feel the sweat coming on, just remove the layer and maybe vent the VB shirt.

    Sometimes I have been able to keep the sweat down to a minimum with this approach. But, other times I have - as part of an experiment or because I am in a hurry- ignored any sweat, and kept right on hiking without removing any layers, maybe only venting as much as I could. But I kept pushing at a good pace. But either way, minimal sweat or lot's of sweat, whatever layer I pull over me when I stop, or even whatever layer I am already wearing while hiking, is DRY. The only thing that is wet is my skin under the VB, and the thin liner, and that moisture can not cool me down by evaporating. So regardless of what happens with sweat, ad even if over a period of days, I know I am going to be warm. One time when I did this, my outer layer was a cotton shirt, which remained bone dry. I know from experience that even without the VB, I would have been sweating some hiking at that pace. Plus my insensible perspiration evaporating off my skin and condensing in my cold cotton shirt. And I also know from experience when I stopped, without another really warm layer over the wet one, I would quickly get cold. And I would be stuck with that damp cotton shirt and it's evaporative cooling for a long time before it dried out.

    These are just things I have played with in recent years, things to think about and experiment in safe conditions. Most will not want to bother with all of this, but what the heck, I have fun playing with it!

  5. #25
    OneClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Question: VB socks while hiking would be the toughest possible conditions as far as getting wet under the VB socks from sweat (and possibly also condensation I suppose, but sweat mainly). So how miserable is that compared to without VB socks?
    I only ran into one instance where I actually sweat and felt it. I was hiking up and down a hill and pulling firewood on a pulk. And we could've been deemed a commercial logging operation with the big trees we were taking! And it was probably up to 30° at the time. So all that sweat would have been immediately in my socks and a good deal into my boot insulation/soles...so a cold rest of the day. With the VBs, I removed them just too see the amount of sweat, dry, and back on. Toasty warm.

  6. #26
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneClick View Post
    I only ran into one instance where I actually sweat and felt it. I was hiking up and down a hill and pulling firewood on a pulk. And we could've been deemed a commercial logging operation with the big trees we were taking! And it was probably up to 30° at the time. So all that sweat would have been immediately in my socks and a good deal into my boot insulation/soles...so a cold rest of the day. With the VBs, I removed them just too see the amount of sweat, dry, and back on. Toasty warm.
    Sweet! My initial impression of the potential for VBs was in about 83-84, getting up before sunrise to fish opening day at a lake in the AZ high country. I don't remember the temps, but it had been snowing the night before. My buddies feet were freezing, and I offered him these VB socks I had recently bought from Patagonia. With great skepticism on both our parts, he put them on under his socks. In a little while, his feet were plenty warm. I was impressed.

  7. #27
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Don't know if this has been shared but I thought it was very informative even though a bit off topic:
    http://www.survivalbased.com/surviva...e-a-navy-seal/
    I guess it is off topic a bit, but it sure is a great article.

    Barkow said this “was meant to mimic the scenarios you hope to never encounter.” The dunk took place after a three-hour patrol hike, far away from any quick assistance. The SEALs would stay in the icy water for 12 minutes before being allowed to get out.
    Instead of stripping off their layers and building a fire like you would think, they instead followed John’s tenant of survival by “getting immediately out of the elements and gaining control of the situation.” So, how do you get control of a situation this dangerous and likely deadly?....................................

    Instead of the strip and dry method we assume is correct, Barkow had the SEALS pull their backup synthetic outer layer from their packs and put them on OVER their drenched layers. They split into pairs with one SEAL putting up a small tent and the other preparing the stove to boil water. No fires yet — just a camp stove and boiled snow.
    From here, both men got into their tents and into their sleeping bags. Once the water was boiling, they made a hot drink and rehydrated some chili. Once consumed, they continued to lie in their bags and tents and wait. What they were waiting for is for their metabolism to kick into action and start to warm them from the inside out.

    After a few hours, the SEALs gradually stopped shivering and were warm enough to function again. During this time, their bodies had nearly dried their base layers, partially dried their mid-layers, and their outer layers were nice and frosted. At this point, they could build a fire if necessary and dry out anything else that needed it while being completely safe without any more risk of hypothermia.

  8. #28
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    All correct, seems to me. But, why would you get chilled(unless you do it wrong, of course). A little moisture against the skin hurts nothing. It might not feel the best, depending on what kind of layer is between VB and skin, but it has no negative effect on body warmth, unless:
    1: it evaporates, causing evaporative cooling, the way an AC or swamp cooler works. Evaporative cooling can be very significant, and is stopped 100% by VBs
    2: it gets into your insulation. Which true VBs stop 100%. .................................................. ........................

    .



    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Hum...67yo....swollen prostate....crawl out of hammock no less than twice nightly....usually three times. It's 22*. By the time I'm done the moisture against my body feels like ice cubes.
    Well, yep, me too. This 70 year old would get chilled crawling out as well. But no reason to get chilled inside the hammock using a VB, unless you do it wrong. In fact, keeping those VB clothes on would probably reduce the shock of crawling out to pee. Or reduce the frequency thereof, by keeping you warmer. I think many of us agree that the easiest way to be up peeing a few times during the night is to get cold, especially in the lower back/kidney area. Something abut chilled kidneys seems to promote the need to pee!
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-08-2018 at 18:14.

  9. #29
    OneClick's Avatar
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    I'll be wearing VB socks next week for deer hunting. 17° for a low, so it will be 17° to start and up to 20° if I'm lucky by the time I'm done. That's cold sitting, I'm talking about the most movement being blinking. So thick socks and warm boots + walking in just a couple 100 yards can get the sweat going. Even the slightest foot sweat (always noticeable between my toes) will be a killer for the duration of just sitting there.

    The VB socks totally eliminate that worry, not only by keeping my socks dry, but by creating a warm closed environment for my feet.

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