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  1. #1
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    An old thread for now: it's cold and wet out there! A Mt.Rogers look back!

    So as winter begins, I thought it might be good for me to review a thread from long ago that seems very applicable to today: her in north MS, it is an all night(last night)/all day rain with highs in the 40s. This is from Jan. 2013, a couple of threads about the annual Jan Mt. Roger's hang out.

    For a couple of folks- and not inexperienced folks either - it became a pretty close call for hypothermia leading to bad results. But fortunately they had a plan for emergency bail out AND were actually able to bail out. If you are on a hike where you are two or more days hike(or maybe even one FULL days hike if you are in poor condition) from your car or some buildings/people/town where rescue might be found, you pretty much have to survive wherever it is that you find your self wet and cold.

    There were 3 hikers who were in some trouble, and one who was with them who was OK and able to make sure they stayed safe. The one who managed to do OK and thus was able to help the other folks who could not think straight was WV. I would like to know more details about his clothing, but one thing is he said he had some insulated ski pants. Those were almost certainly were synthetic(is that right?) and would thus retain at least some insulation when wet from sweat and the creek crossing they were forced to do(had to do what sounds like a near knee deep wade due to high creek levels from the heavy rain, also sounds like the trail itself turned into a creek). And most importantly, would drain water and dry fairly quickly according to my tests. He also had some dry layers(including the ski pants) to put on once they finally got to a shelter. (but the ski pants got wet again during the creek crossing on the bail out hike, I think) So he managed to stay warm enough to function and think straight.

    For the others(Doctari, Bonsahiker and Chickadee) there was at least some cotton involved under the Gore-tex rain gear, but I am not sure about the others. But except for pants, it was mostly synthetic. But I do wonder if there was any or more puffy clothing available that was synthetic, say Climashield or Primaloft,(which might be like the ski pants that WV had? ) if they would have kept warm enough to function and get their camp set up and hot water boiling? I don't know But I just thought these were great threads for folks to read, even those who have never got wet in all their years of hiking and camping. These make a good read:
    The story begins at about page 6 of this general planning thread for the Mt. Rogers group hang for Jan 2013:
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-hangout/page6

    Here is a thread started by one of the folks who had a close call discusses all that went wrong and maybe what to do different next time. Nothing like a personal learning experience to influence how you will do things in the future. As I often say: stuff happens! I have seen it happen to very experience backpackers, when immediate bail out was not an option,as thankfully it was here:
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...04-Hypothermia

    Rather than resurrecting those old threads, I might just copy a few posts from them here on this new thread. But you might want to skim through those very useful threads in their entirety. Since rain gear has been known to fail, we need to have a plan for being wet.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-12-2018 at 12:03.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-hangout/page6
    Quote Originally Posted by bonsaihiker View Post
    Thanks, Tim. It did get pretty serious, but we made a good survival plan and stuck to it. A series of good decisions made it turn out well.

    We started hiking after the rain stopped, thinking it was about to turn into snow. Instead, it started raining again and the rain got much heavier by the time we were at the top of Wilburn ridge and had turned to freezing rain. By the time we got to the Wise shelter 3 of us were soaked and the fourth (Chickadee) was tired and hungry. After grabbing some food and water and briefly changing to dry clothing, we decided the best thing was to hike right back out along Wilson creek to the campground. That's when the rain changed to snow and we had several inches on the ground 15 minutes later. The larger of the creek crossings was a raging torrent, which we had to cross, swamping our boots. We made it back to the campground and Golfhiker drove us back to our cars in the middle of a white-out. We made it back to the campground and changed to dry clothes. The others were able to set up camp, but the snow was so heavy and so wet that everything you touched got soaked. It took me at least 2 hours [EDIT: actually, now that I think about the timing of events, I think it was more like 3 to 4 hours] just to get my tarp and hammocks strung up but I just ran completely out of energy (and I'm used to pushing hard). Everything under the tarp just got covered in snow no matter how well sealed it was. I couldn't get the insulation hung and I eventually just gave up and got back into the van, which was still running with the heater on, thank God. Chickadee and I covered up in down and went to sleep. I ran the engine and heater periodically through the night to stay warm, and because I had gassed up at Damascus I had plenty of fuel. I just made sure to keep snow away from the exhaust and engine, which wasn't easy. We had at least a foot on the ground by morning, drifting twice as high in some areas.

    Even though I had dry clothing and a warm vehicle, I was still recovering from flu and because of lack of sleep, exhaustion, and dehydration I just couldn't keep myself warm and I didn't have the energy to make hot meals or drinks. Thankfully we had ready-to-eat food and lots of extra water which was still warm from home. Doctari's Scotch eggs helped a lot, and Hickery's coffee gave me a jolt back to normalcy. He really knows how to make a serious pot of coffee!

    I had planned to wait in the car until the plow arrived, and then to follow it out, which I did. I almost hugged the operator and the ranger who followed him in. I told him our situation and plan, and he made sure to clear my car and waited until I was on the pavement before leaving. I didn't even catch his name, but I'm very thankful for his help. I'm also very fortunate and thankful for everyone that looked out for us there and who helped in any way. I was not completely coherent during much of the time, so I hope I don't forget someone, but BFGMofo and others checked me constantly, Doctari, who was also in trouble, made sure I was still functioning and, along with Hetairoi dismantled my camp, golfhiker shuttled us to our cars, HomeRun shuttled equipment, Hetairoi, Angrysparrow, and others who I couldn't see helped push my car out of the snow, and of course Hickery brought me some awesome coffee.

    A slow and careful drive back down the mountain got us back to Damascus without incident, where we were able to get something to eat and drink. I felt good until Gate City, when the caffeine high wore off and I was back to my previous state. I got another cup when I refueled and was fine until dinner time at home, when the caffeine died off again. However, I was home, and a hot shower and good night's sleep in a warm bed helped a lot. When I got up, I weighed myself and I lost SIX POUNDS since the morning before we left! Chickadee and I are still exhausted and are lying around the living room in front of a roaring fire. We will rest today and eat and be fine, I'm sure.

    We learned several powerful lessons, including the importance of avoiding hiking in rain in that type of weather, simplifying all equipment, carrying extra gear including extra rain shells, keeping simple, ready-to-eat high calorie foods handy, the power of caffeine, having safe, reliable backup plans, and having good friends around you to help.

    I realize that, even though this is the oldest winter Hammockforums hang, we can no longer claim the title of having the coldest hang. However, I submit to the forums that this trip could easily claim the title of the hang with the absolute worst weather! I would rather deal with deep, intense cold than being soaked in those temps. BTW, my wife told me about a man and his two sons, 8 and 10, who died while hiking on an Ozark trail that same night, in the same type of conditions. When I think that could have been me, it gives me great pause and I'm so grateful to God for pulling us through. I'm glad He doesn't get tired of hearing us talk to Him, because I certainly kept up a lively conversation.

    So, in the end, this story turns out well. I'm deeply sorry that I missed seeing many of you, and really wish I could have spent more time with the others, and part of me wonders how it would have turned out if we had just gone to a Damascus laundromat to dry our things, bought Chickadee a new pair of boots, and returned. However, as worn out as I still am today I know we made the right decision. The weather was beautiful when we left, and I hope everyone there has an awesome, safe time.

  3. #3
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...04-Hypothermia
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctari View Post
    I couldn't figure out where to put this, but as it is / was group trip related.
    On the MRHO trip report thread Slow hike said:



    So, my "lesson learned" post:

    ME: Gortex (O.R. gear) rain coat that had kept me dry many times before, Washed ONLY in clear water, never any soap. No bug stuff on it, etc. I got soaked through.
    Rain pants, their first time in rain (were used as just cold weather pants for past 8 years) Yea, got soaked legs.
    Under that all was my regular hiking clothing for the temps encountered, only "Issue" my pants under the rain pants were cotton, didn't count on getting that wet. Everything else was nylon or Poly, my socks were wool.

    I feel we didn't push very hard, stayed cool, etc. Took a few standing breaks as we were mostly in the open till just before the Wise shelter. I for one ate little, even at the Wise. Which was one thing that set off alarms for me, I was NOT hungry. Warning #2: I didn't have the energy to look far in my food bag, way to tired to get food out. Food I wasn't hungry for, but knew I seriously needed! Then I took a close look at my 3 companions, as stated in a previous post, I looked at them as a mirror to me; I felt GREAT, was still having fun, could see in my 3 mirrors that I was in sad shape. So I forced down some tiny candy bars & a bit of jerky & we bailed!
    Our "Plan #2" was to set up in the shelter would have likely been a good plan IF we didn't have someone for sure at the group campground, not comfortable, but all 4 of us in drier clothing & after eating, the shelter MAY have provided enough shelter, especially with the front covered by our tarps.
    I think, for me at least, having the #2 plan, made the decision to bail easier. I don't know why, but it did.

    Should we have stayed? No way of knowing. I think not. IF we could have built a fire, that would undoubtedly been the thing to do. But at the group campground, with a lot of fire starting alcohol, 3 Trioxine tabs & 1/4 of a Duraflame log & several people trying, they could not get a lasting fire started.

    The toughest one in the group, less body mass (OK, Fat LOL) was Chickadee. I think she managed to stay drier than the rest of us, but had less natural insulation.

    What I wish we had done different? Not sure. Maybe not hike in the rain. But I have hiked in cold rain before & for me to not hike,,,, well, not going to happen.
    Set up camp sooner? We discussed that Monday, our first spot to camp was a bit over 1/2 mile from the shelter, we don't think that would have made any difference.
    Turn back? Sure,, When? We were fine while moving, or at least felt we were.
    Eat more? Yep, should have, but with that rain, I for one didn't feel like stopping & opening my pack. A lesson I did take away, I had issues finding my snacks that were in the bottom of my food bag. I now have a small Teal colored (My food bag is Orange) bag that will be attached to the food bag to stay near the top for ease of finding. This little bag will hold 5 days of snacks easily & is easy to see in the food bag.

  4. #4
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV View Post
    Tim,
    I hiked in a rain parka, but had removed many insulating layers underneath it before starting. I expected to heat up as I climbed and switch to a wind parka, but I didn't need to. From the waist down I had thin wool pants and silk long johns. They got wet, and the tops of my thighs got unpleasantly cold. I probably should have worn rain pants (which I had with me), but I was sure I'd overheat. Now I'm not so sure. The best thing I did was wearing the rain parka, and the second best thing was wearing my Mad Bomber Hat under the hood. I had planned to use just a possum down hat and a windproof fleece hat instead of the MB, but on impulse I kept it. I'm convinced that keeping my head completely warm was a good move. When we got to Wise I was not shivering, but I knew I'd be more comfortable with dry pants. I swapped for heavier poly thermal underwear, GI pants liners, and insulated goretex snow pants. I was immediately comfortable again, and stayed that way, even after the ford of Quebec Branch wetted me somewhat from the knees down. I didn't have trouble setting up my hammock at the campground, but only ate some cold food before going to bed. I made a point of getting up to pee and drink more water several times during the night. Next morning I had to cope with a diminishing supply of dry socks, and a total lack of dry gloves or mittens. That was perhaps the hardest challenge of the weekend. Tying frozen shoelaces with bare fingers in 24° temps = difficult and no fun.


    Next year I'll have two sets of dry clothing in the car, and not just cotton duds to drive home in. I did have dry boots to put on, but the wet snow had them soaked through by Saturday.


    I hope these details help others plan for winter trips. We're all different. I didn't have hypothermia, but I was acutely aware of my age and the need to know when I made a trip from the hammock to the car, I'd best remember what I went for.
    (emphasis in bold mine)
    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...04-Hypothermia

  5. #5
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    One more thing I just noticed about WV's report: if I am reading him right, he did not hike in rain pants. And he of course got wet. And yet, it appears he suffered significantly less serious initial consequences(before he put on his ski pants which was apparently a huge help) than those that hiked in rain pants and also got wet(either from rain gear leakage or rain gear not breathable to vent move out the sweat, if any. And the thing about moving sweat through a WPB garment: it must first evaporate to become vapor which can pass through the WPB garment. The problem with that is: when sweat evaporates it produces evaporative cooling, which is a very significant source of cooling that almost no one's gear deals with or prevents.

    It makes me wonder: was WV actually better off with cold rain wetting his wool and silk pants, than the guys with rain gear and who got wet anyway(either from sweat or rain)? Who might also have been dealing with some evaporative cooling? Would VBs have helped this situation any? While virtually guaranteeing sweat, still the sweat would not have been able to evaporate causing AC like cooling, and would not have been able to enter their insulation. I think there was a question as to how much of the rain gear's apparent failure was more a matter of sweat soaking from within. I don't know, I'm just wondering and thinking out loud.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-12-2018 at 14:24.

  6. #6
    Senior Member sidneyhornblower's Avatar
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    Those old threads have made good reading as I take my lunch break in front a fire I just made and watch the rain sheet down outside and know that it's 44 degrees out there and I'm not in it. Some of the reading is scary stuff but better to read now and consider it than to get too far out later and have an "oh, crap" moment. Good stuff.
    "...the height of hammock snobbery!"

  7. #7
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidneyhornblower View Post
    Those old threads have made good reading as I take my lunch break in front a fire I just made and watch the rain sheet down outside and know that it's 44 degrees out there and I'm not in it. Some of the reading is scary stuff but better to read now and consider it than to get too far out later and have an "oh, crap" moment. Good stuff.
    I see you are a Georgia boy from over near where I used to live(a bit south west of you in Warner Robins and other GA towns further west), so you may be under the same system I am, lots of cold rain. And I have been reading in the same fashion as you, in my warm, dry house. Right now with another cup of hot coffee. It certainly is easier to try to figure out how I am going to handle it right here rather than out in the middle of it!

    I was just looking at some incredible puffy jackets at WM, they are basically giving them away. 100% polyester. $19-$34 bucks. I might get one just for working in the yard. If I tear it o a bush no big loss. But these threads got me thinking about what a hassle layering can be in inclement weather. If your layers are too thick, you sweat. If not enough, and you have to remove a rain gear shell to add a layer, and it is a deluge or blowing snow, you can have a problem. One thing I have considered, especially if putting up a tarp for a break, with the tarp not just stopping the pouring rain, but blocking the wind: even under a tarp, where you plan to boil up some hot liquids to consume, taking the rain shell off to add a layer, putting the shell back on, then maybe having to reverse that before getting moving again, what a hassle. Plus, if you are already getting cold as soon as you stop, having to remove that layer to get on a warm layer is not the most efficient way to get warm.

    So, looking at those thick, puffy 100% polyester jackets, some claiming to have wind proof and/or water proof/resistant shells: what about just having a large, roomy, hooded one of those in an easy access point in your pack, whipping that sucker out, and putting it right over your hiking shells? If under the tarp, the only water to be worried about will be what is still on your rain gear shell. These thick, puffy polyester parkas are not going to loose much loft from even a good bit of moisture, and in my experience Polarguard(just polyester) has kept me way warmer than nothing or cotton would even when I soaked it on purpose before starting a safe hike in near freezing, windy, light rain. It had a "waterproof/breathable" shell, and was almost totally bone dry(except for the ends of the sleeves) after about 30 minutes of vigorous walking.

    I'm thinking I could quickly pull a puffy shell like that right over wet clothes and it would be a huge help, and would not be hurt much by the wet undergarments. And since mine has a WPB shell, more or less, it would not even be hurt much by the rain if I was not under a tarp.

    Sure, staying dry is the goal. But as these threads prove, sometimes even experienced hikers with excellent gear fail to pull that off.

    My second thought is really far out there: what if I started hiking in VB clothing, with the thinnest possible(or even none) layer over that, and then the rain shell? Being waterproof to the point of non breathable, this would assure no outside ice cold rain reached my skin, even if it breached my rain gear. But maybe my rain gear would work better, if not having to deal with a ton of evaporating sweat trying to work it's way out of the pores that much WPB rain gear works on. In fact, since being breathable is now a moot point since the layer next to my skin is already non breathable, maybe I can just go ahead and use truly waterproof rain gear? The cheap kind that is equal to a shower curtain? Or, how about a Packa for the torso? People us those OK even without the VB clothing. Has any one eve heard of a leak with a sil-nylon Packa? And also, ifnot using VBs, the Packas are known to have excellent ventilation to help deal with the fact they are not breathable.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-12-2018 at 15:24.

  8. #8
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    Garment style is another subtle point. I don't see them much now, but in yesteryear common knowledge as an anorak style was warmer than an zip-up=the=front jacket. The Anorak pulls over your head and might have a short zipper from the neck to mid chest, but not all the way down the front. Problem was, there's a hesitancy to change. Just the act of stopping to pull something over your head - or off if you are too warm - can be put off until one is too cold or too hot (and sweaty wet).

    I learned my lesson on Mt. Hood one year when it started misting but I didn't want to stop for a clothing break. It would have only taken a minute or two to pull the extra clothes out of my pack. By the time I did stop, I was pretty wet and it took about 15 minutes because 15 seconds or less (and less and less each time I took them out) after I took my hands out of my mitts to open pack zippers, my hands would freeze so the muscles wouldn't work.

    When I got home, I put pull cords on all my zippers so I could open them with my teeth if necessary. And I have worked on the discipline that when I feel overheated or cold, THAT is the time to make a clothing change and not at the next rise, or trail sign, or whatever stopping point is someplace ahead.

    I don't know what it is - perhaps just personal with me - that says, if I am hiking from A to B, that I'll just wait till I get to B to take care of something. It has taken effort to stop to drink water, stop to adjust hiking pole length, stop to tighten shoe laces, stop to put on or take off clothes. But it is worth it. One thing that helped is when I'd make a commitment to stop every 30 minutes or so - regardless. Just breath in and out; look around. Enjoy the setting.

    I'm posting this in case others find themselves "driven" when on route to some destination. As obvious as it seems, taking a clothing break can be a real effort.
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 11-12-2018 at 17:19.

  9. #9
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    Garment style is another subtle point. I don't see them much now, but in yesteryear common knowledge as an anorak style was warmer than an zip-up=the=front jacket. The Anorak pulls over your head and might have a short zipper from the neck to mid chest, but not all the way down the front. Problem was, there's a hesitancy to change. Just the act of stopping to pull something over your head - or off if you are too warm - can be put off until one is too cold or too hot (and sweaty wet). I learned my lesson on Mt. Hood one year when it started misting but I didn't want to stop for a clothing break. It would have only taken a minute or two to pull the extra clothes out of my pack. By the time I did stop, I was pretty wet and it took about 15 minutes because 15 seconds or less (and less and less each time I took them out) after I took my hands out of my mitts to open pack zippers, my hands would freeze so the muscles wouldn't work.

    When I got home, I put pull cords on all my zippers so I could open them with my teeth if necessary. And I have worked on the discipline that when I feel overheated or cold, THAT is the time to make a clothing change and not at the next rise, or trail sign, or whatever stopping point is someplace ahead.

    I don't know what it is - perhaps just personal with me - that says, if I am hiking from A to B, that I'll just wait till I get to B to take care of something. It has taken effort to stop to drink water, stop to adjust hiking pole length, stop to tighten shoe laces, stop to put on or take of clothes. But it is worth it. One thing that helped is when I'd make a commitment to stop every 30 minutes or so - regardless. Just breath in and out; look around. Enjoy the setting.

    I'm posting this in case others find themselves "driven" when on route to some destination. As obvious as it seems, making a clothing break can be a real effort.
    Excellent points! Oh man, those cold hands when trying to do something important with them! That can really be a challenge! I think that was also one of WV's problems in those old threads: wet gloves and cold hands! But many of us have needed to take gloves off to do something only to have our hands freeze up on us!

  10. #10
    Senior Member snwcmpr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    incredible puffy jackets at WM
    Can you tell me where that is. Western Mountaineering, I thought, only sells down.

    Great topic, great read.

    We are in the same storm, I think. Western NC.
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