Down insulation - is there too much compression

[GilligansWorld]

Looking for a little help finding information on how down degrades over time when it is compressed. How much is too much compression?

Where this is going I bought a 30 L dry bag - sea to summit - the last two trips I have taken I have stuffed both the top quilt and the under quilt into the dry bag - both quilts are rated down to around 20 degrees. Both fit no problem actually had a little room to spare. Since the dry bag is a compression sack I was able to further compress them down.

I can't seem to locate any information regarding the durability of down. I can't say this any differently but how much is too much compression when working with down.

Does anybody out there have any information regarding this or links that I can follow to do more research.

Thanks

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[Miquel Westano]

Looking for a little help finding information on how down degrades over time when it is compressed. How much is too much compression?

Where this is going I bought a 30 L dry bag - sea to summit - the last two trips I have taken I have stuffed both the top quilt and the under quilt into the dry bag - both quilts are rated down to around 20 degrees. Both fit no problem actually had a little room to spare. Since the dry bag is a compression sack I was able to further compress them down.

I can't seem to locate any information regarding the durability of down. I can't say this any differently but how much is too much compression when working with down.

Does anybody out there have any information regarding this or links that I can follow to do more research.

Thanks

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

As long as you don't leave them compressed long term, I don't see how that bag can hurt them. I suppose in theory a guy could over compress down and destroy it, but I don't see that happening accidently with a compression sack, unless you forget about them when you return home and store them compressed. This is based on me, my experiences and my relatively feeble old man strength. I am sure others on here will chime in, and many will have more experience than me, and some of the younger folks may be able to compress stuff way more than I am able to at 63.

[GilligansWorld]

As long as you don't leave them compressed long term, I don't see how that bag can hurt them. I suppose in theory a guy could over compress down and destroy it, but I don't see that happening accidently with a compression sack, unless you forget about them when you return home and store them compressed. This is based on me, my experiences and my relatively feeble old man strength. I am sure others on here will chime in, and many will have more experience than me, and some of the younger folks may be able to compress stuff way more than I am able to at 63.

I love it!!!

Yeah I feel like you do but......
$600 is a lot of $$$$ for me and I want to protect that investment. Was hoping to see anything I could read that was published or studies but I may just be wishing....

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[Brooklyn]

The worry about compressing down has reached epic levels.

You're fine.

[michigandave]

Lots of threads on the interwebs on this one:
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ong-short-term
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...mpressing-Down
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...mpressing-down
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-Down-Too-Long

[Just Bill]

Two more practical questions on this issue in my opinion:

How quickly do you need your bag to work?
Will overcompression wreck your bag? For the most part no, a wash and dryer time with a good set of tennis balls will restore your loft. Course last I checked I don't pack those things or have half a day to spend in a laundromat. The faster you need your bag to work the less you should compress it. When I used to speed hike I was in my bag within 10 minutes of it coming out of my pack. Even on more casual trips you may not want to pull your insulation out and expose it to the elements for an hour or two for it to recover. So really it comes down to recovery time to achieve peak loft. Your body heat will help fluff the down but if you find you need more than a few shakes and thirty minutes to get that thing looking right then you're probably overdoing it. When down is tested in the lab it is conditioned and rested for 24 hours.... if you got that kind of time then you probably aren't using a compression sack to worry about it.

Did you buy a ultra light/ultra expensive set of insulation?
If so it seems a bit silly to agonize over $600 bucks of 900+ fill down and then 'add back' 4-8 ounces of compression sack to the equation.
No to mention paying another 5% for the privilege of carrying that compression sack.

It might also not be good for that ultra light shell material/construction either to manhandle your quilts as you crank the straps to submission... regardless of what happens to the down inside when you work with very light shells you typically have to use lighter thread. The down may last you a decade... but if the shell that turns it from a pile of fluff into a piece of insulation may not last more than a few seasons if you treat it poorly.

An exception to the rule:
Maybe you're in a kayak and space is critical... or at least negates the weight of the stuff sack. You probably NEED a drybag so might as well make packing easier by oversizing the drybag and giving it a knee before you roll it up and realistically you've got the same level of compression and you don't have all those straps and buckles snagging on stuff in your boat.

Generally speaking though from a backpackers perspective:
-A trash compactor bag/pack liner is usually the lighter option and protects all your gear, not just your insulation from moisture.
-Nothing lighter than no stuff sack... and loose packing your insulation into your pack is a good way to fill all the nooks and crannies without beating up your bag. A full pack always carries better and loose stuffing your insulation is a great way to ensure your backpack stays full.
-A hard lump of anything can be hard to pack around or work with and can cause your pack to carry poorly.
-A loose stuffed down piece is easy to slip in and out of your pack... allowing you to take advantage of a warm rock outcrop or just the breeze when you're taking a rest. Getting a little sun (UV light) on the shell helps kill any hiker funk before it gets out of hand. Often when backpacking many folks like to 'get up and go' which means that you packed up with a bit of body vapor and ambient humidity still trapped in the insulation. So overall having easy access to your insulation during the day means you can care for it more easily. Clean, dry down works better, smells better, and lasts longer. Even if you have treated down and you're not as concerned about moisture... mildew and other funk is really the bigger enemy with down products than anything.
-On damp multi-day trips... keeping your bag fluffy and fresh may mean the difference between having to head into town to dry it or ensuring a good warm night on day three and beyond.

Overall decent rule of thumb- if you're compressing something beyond what you're physically capable of you're probably overdoing it.
When compression sacks first came out people used to break them all the time. The buckles and stitching regularly tore out. If you're cranking on a buckle and webbing so hard you're breaking your stuff sack... regardless of what happens to the down inside... you probably need to evaluate your pack system as a whole if you can't fit a modern down bag in there without resorting to a 3:1 mechanical advantage to pack it.

[OneClick]

The worry about compressing down has reached epic levels.

You're fine.

If we were at backpackinglight, I'm sure there would be lots of big words and a ton of actual math equations involved.

[Brooklyn]

If we were at backpackinglight, I'm sure there would be lots of big words and a ton of actual math equations involved.

Yeah, and in the end, most say Not an issue when dry.

People don't realize that down may be compressed for very long periods, years, before it's ever made into a garment or sleeping bag.

nerdy http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/9268/...al%20edit2.pdf

[trouthunter]

Compressing down enough to fit it into a backpack, stuff sack, or drybag just long enough to go on a hiking or canoeing trip shouldn't hurt it. However I have found that if i fail to fluff it back up before using it, it doesnt perform as well as it can.
It's all about loft, as I'm sure you're well aware, but I have found it's easy to just climb into my sleeping bag at night when I'm tired without putting in the extra effort to really fluff the down back up, or fail to make sure the down is not clumped up in a baffle which creates cold spots.

In comparison, this is one of the benefits of long filament synthetics, it stays in place better and has more consistent R value with less work by the user (not to mean it out performs down). Down is more thermally efficient by volume and weight with proper care and use, this efficiency is not a given though, it requires some effort by the user to accomplish, in my experience.

[OneClick]

It's all about loft, as I'm sure you're well aware, but I have found it's easy to just climb into my sleeping bag at night when I'm tired without putting in the extra effort to really fluff the down back up, or fail to make sure the down is not clumped up in a baffle which creates cold spots.

On those short nights, I'll set up the hammock and put both the TQ and UQ inside loosely. Then finish tweaking the tarp, brush teeth, quick handwipe bath, get dressed, hang UQ, etc. That can kill at least 20 minutes, so I feel better about getting at least some loft.