Very true about the "workable combinations". While I'd love to be able to afford a full quiver of appropriately rated quilts, I'm happy to be able to make-do and get outside by using various combinations of gear I already own.Originally Posted by oldpappy
I'm almost a month late on this report, but want to record it, if for no other reason than to document it for my own reference:
Conditions on 2/5/19:
- Low temp = 1.2°F... so close!
IMG_2352.jpg- Wind - didn't notice
Clothing:
- Feet - heavyweight wool socks
- Lower body - basic long johns and sweat pants
- Upper body - long johns, 1/4 zip micro fleece pullover, lightweight down hoody
- Head - balaclava, wool beanie
Gear:
- Hammock - REI Quarter Dome Air
- Pad - Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm MAX Large
- Pillow - Sea to Summit Aeros Premium
- Top insulation - 40°F Mobile Mummy, 2 Costco down throws, heavy down parka laid over feet.
Performance/Sleep summary:
- Not much to say here... slept well, never had to get up, never was too cold.
- It was relatively easy to tuck the CDTs down along the sides of the hammock and under the pad, and they stayed put requiring very little adjustment even while multiple-switch side-sleeping throughout the night.
- There was some frozen condensation on the sides of the hammock and on the insulation directly near my mouth, but not a concerning amount (to me, anyways).
P1090874.jpgP1090875.jpg- I was surprised to find some frozen condensation on the inside of the hood of my down parka. Apparently my feet were plenty warm...
P1090877.jpg- I still have yet to ever find condensation on the pad or underneath me.
- Overall, an enjoyable night of slumber.
P1090868.jpgP1090872.jpgP1090864.jpg
Last edited by 509-T203-KG; 03-06-2019 at 22:21.
Ndxt time out, Try shedding some clothing. With good quilts you shouldn't need more than a thin comfy layer. Feet may be an exception but start with light socks. Easy enough to add another pair if needed.
Agreed. I certainly sleep more comfortably with less clothing, but I don’t own any quilts rated for these kinds of temps.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Personally, to keep backpack weight much lighter in the winter I always plan to use clothing to augment my TQ, up to and including down parka and down pants. This way I can use a 20deg TQ down to 0deg.
Also, getting out of the hammock for a midnight run to tinkle the trees while wearing only skivvies at -20°F is not fun.
Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton
Another great report! You have really provided us with some good evidence that these NeoAir winter pads are capabale of great performance in a hammock, as well as comfort in some hammocks! Thanks! Very good point about the frozen condensation INSIDE of your down hoody. It was apparently irrelevant how breathable that gear was( it was all breathable, right?), condensation still occurred, and in this case froze. On longer trips without warm sunshine for drying, that might become an issue. What I am somewhat surprised at is that you had no condensation inside your TQs. Although, unless you weighed them and/or measured loft before and after, you don't really know that you did not have condensation somewhere in those quilts. I'm betting you did, but maybe our heads give off more moisture, making it more obvious?
I also am impressed that- even at almost zero F, you have yet to have condensation on your pad. And you don't really have to worry about wind chill or splashup underneath you, do you? Certainly not as much as with an UQ. In my experience, I need a large tarp or UQP to keep the wind from cutting right through my UQs. If I fail to block the wind from all directions(in case wind shifts at 0300), I will feel every significant gust. Thanks again for doing these tests.
Do you have any concerns about punctures or valve damage on trips deep into the wilderness, when you can not conveniently bail out? Are you confident in your ability to repair such as that? I have been on the verge of switching to pads in recent years, but tat possible problem concerns me.
Yep, me too. I am a layer guy! That has worked for me for many years. When I was so toasty warm at 6F(my personal best way down south), I was using a TQ that while called 20F, most people did not seem to think it was any warmer than 30-40F. I could not have been much warmer without sweating. Layers!
Last edited by BillyBob58; 03-06-2019 at 13:51.
Also, 509, your testing brings up another possible question and point:
!: You have now been apparently plenty warm at 1F, WITH A PAD IN A HAMMOCK, with no concerns about things such a condensation inside your UQ and probably far less concern(at least for back warmth) with wind chill and splash up compared to some other method. Now the question is: where is the cut off? How low will that X-Therm take you before you are actually cold? I'm thinking that 1*F is about there, but who knows?
2: If you are using the large, wide X-therm, the weight is 20 oz. If the standard 20" wide pad,then a mere 15 oz. Has anyone here been able to approach such warmth(you have not yet found the limit) with a non-pad full length approach?
Or maybe, 509, you are a human furnace, IOW a VERY warm sleeper? If not, I'm thinking adequate full length warmth at zero with just 20 oz under you is very, very impressive.
Thoughts, anyone?
Not that you didn't know, but just clarifying that this was inside the heavyweight down hoody laid over my feet, and not the lightweight one I was wearing.
Yes, it was all breathable. You make an excellent point that exposes a lack of knowledge on my part in regards to condensation. I did not measure weight or loft before/after. When I talk about condensation, I am really just referring to any moisture that I can see and feel as I pack up and as I lay stuff out to dry if necessary. It seems that most of the moisture that I observe is directly around my mouth and has likely come from my breathing.
I can say without a doubt that I have never observed any moisture on any part of my pad. I had no idea this was a thing.
I have yet to endure any extremely windy nights with this system, so I can't say for sure, but with the 5-15 mph winds I have experienced, I was not able to notice them from beneath me. I can't imagine needing to worry about splash-up. If the underside of the hammock were to get wet, or even the underside of the pad, it wouldn't matter.
Not worried about punctures, especially when using in the hammock (I have yet to use it on the ground). I do worry about the valve. But I just take extra care and precaution when using it, and when rolling it up. Plus Therm-a-Rest has a limited lifetime warranty that I've heard is very good. I used the pad for 6 nights on a 60 mile backpack trip last summer with no issues. 3 nights in, one person in our group had a pad puncture on an older Therm-a-Rest that we were able to identify by submerging it in a creek, and then repair it with one of the several available repair kits the group had. I actually have an old Therm-a-Rest with a puncture that was repaired in the mid-90s that still works just fine.
I don’t think so. I’ve had a handful of nights over the last number of years where I froze despite thinking I had proper gear for the conditions. I am carrying an extra 30lbs of insulation around my midsection I’d like to get rid of, so there’s that.
Lower still... stay tuned, I have a new report to write. I’ll probably start a new thread. Maybe link it here.
Just to clarify, the weights you quoted are for the standard-shaped XTherm (rounded corners). Mine is the XTherm MAX (rectangular corners) which weighs a bit more at 23oz for the large and 17oz for the regular. After testing a different rectangular wide pad in my bridge, I thought a rectangular pad would be best. After 20+ nights, I'm not so sure that the rounded corner version wouldn't work just as well. Comfort-wise, I insist on the wide, but I don’t need the extra length. I wish they made this pad in a regular wide so I could shave some unnecessary ounces.
I should specify that, especially on the underside, I never feel particularly “toasty” as many people describe and/or strive to be. I don’t like feeling overheated, so I try to be right on the edge of just warm enough to sleep comfortably through the night. I wouldn’t say that I feel a lot of “warmth”, per se, from the pad - more so that I just don't feel cold. Strangely, my underside hasn’t really felt any different whether it was 20, 10 or 0°F (or lower...)
Last edited by 509-T203-KG; 03-07-2019 at 01:24.
No, I did NOT already know, I had that wrong, I was thinking(assuming) the hood was over your head! Thanks for putting me straight! But, it is even more expected, as I THINK our feet put out more moisture than just about anywhere else, one reason I am personally a big fan of VB socks. Years ago, Backpackinglight(BPL) reported the main(or a least first) trouble they had with their down bags one of their UL Alaska trips was collapse of the foot box. Add that to so many complaints about cold feet at this site, and I come up with my theory about the feet putting out lots of vapor or sweat. In your case that vapor(or sweat) made it's way through the insulation until it hit the dew point and froze. Great thing about when it freezes: easier to know it is there, compared to if just a small amout is absorbed into the down night after night.
Same here, I have sometimes had significant problems with breath condensation. I had some just the other night. That is the glory of frost bibs, which I do not always bother with. But when I do, it keeps me a lot drier.Yes, it was all breathable. You make an excellent point that exposes a lack of knowledge on my part in regards to condensation. I did not measure weight or loft before/after. When I talk about condensation, I am really just referring to any moisture that I can see and feel as I pack up and as I lay stuff out to dry if necessary. It seems that most of the moisture that I observe is directly around my mouth and has likely come from my breathing.
Oh, it is a thing all right. It is a very big thing with some folks who try and use pads in hammocks. It was the main reason for the Jacks (JacksRbetter) to come up with their UQs so many years ago. (They may have been the first commercial UQs, along with KAQ's DIY version about the same time, and maybe along with the Speer Pea Pod about the same time) Some of us don't seem to have much problem with it and I don't know why. I don't have a lot of pad experience, not counting OCF pad used in the HH Super Shelter, covered by a space blanket. The only time I used pads by them selves in 18F weather, I had no condensation. Also, when I have added a torso sized WM bue pad to the pad pocket of my JRB bridge in warm weather, adding it when I would get cold about 0500, warmed right up and had no condensation. Condensation happens on cold enough surfaces. But at 18F, I had 2 pads( each had an R value = 2.6): a torso size self inflating 1" thick Thermarest UL on top of a full length TR RidgeRest 5/8" thick), total R value a bit over 5 in the torso double thickness(stacked in a Speer SPE). Not only was that my first time ever( my early days as a hanger) being toasty warm at such temps, I did not notice any condensation or sweat. But some folks get soaked. I sometimes wonder: does the thickness and R value of the pad matter? IOW, condensation(sweat is a different problem) occurs on a cold surface. If a pad was barely thick enough to keep us fro getting cold, then the pad itself- exposed on one side to the cold- might be cool enough on the inner surface to cause condensation? I have no idea really, I just know it has been a big problem for some folks, for others not so much.I can say without a doubt that I have never observed any moisture on any part of my pad. I had no idea this was a thing.
I think I would feel pretty confident about being able to patch a self inflating TR. I'm not as sure about these NeoAirs. I guess I need to check with Thermarest about that. I have also heard about baffles blowing out. Although I don't know if that would end all function if that happened with a NeoAir, or one of the Down Mats or SynMats. I am planning a trip with my son and grandson to some remote Rocky Mountain region this summer. My grandson indicated he wants to hang for the first time. Also, we might, for at least one night, end up someplace above timberline. So I am debating switching to pads as the main source of insulation, along with using hammocks that work well with pads, I.E. Bridge hammocks or 90° hammocks. Assuming Comfort could be maintained, I think there would be several safety advantages of pads versus under quilts for such a trip. But if taking inflatable pads, the only safety downside compared to under quilts or closed cell foam pads would be the puncture issue. And even that can probably be patched, but with my grandsons first trip and all, I want to be certain. But if I stick with UQs, I will still have some minimal pad as emergency backup(or just for fun above timberline).Not worried about punctures, especially when using in the hammock (I have yet to use it on the ground). I do worry about the valve. But I just take extra care and precaution when using it, and when rolling it up. Plus Therm-a-Rest has a limited lifetime warranty that I've heard is very good. I used the pad for 6 nights on a 60 mile backpack trip last summer with no issues. 3 nights in, one person in our group had a pad puncture on an older Therm-a-Rest that we were able to identify by submerging it in a creek, and then repair it with one of the several available repair kits the group had. I actually have an old Therm-a-Rest with a puncture that was repaired in the mid-90s that still works just fine.
Yay! Looking forward to that!Lower still... stay tuned, I have a new report to write. I’ll probably start a new thread. Maybe link it here.
I have had similar experiences, that is, not really feeling all that toasty warm, but simply not being at all cold, and remaining that way it even significantly colder temperatures.I should specify that, especially on the underside, I never feel particularly “toasty” as many people describe and/or strive to be. I don’t like feeling overheated, so I try to be right on the edge of just warm enough to sleep comfortably through the night. I wouldn’t say that I feel a lot of “warmth”, per se, from the pad - more so that I just don't feel cold. Strangely, my underside hasn’t really felt any different whether it was 20, 10 or 0°F (or lower...
New report, new thread... got down to -10°F. Link below:
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ad-in-a-bridge
Last edited by 509-T203-KG; 03-18-2019 at 11:58.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks