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  1. #11
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    Not all information has an explicit "use." If the info here is not interesting to you, that's fine. However, I think you might be surprised how many people would find it interesting.

    Cmoulder can speak for himself, but I believe his reason for posting was to provide some evidence to dispel the myth that DCF tarps "do not take on any water." He provided some empirical data to illustrate that point, and then linked to an external thread that provided even more data - in that case comparing the weight of water taken on by DCF and silnylon.

    Nothing wrong with using data to prove or disprove notions that are sometimes taken for granted or bandied around like dogma.
    Last edited by cmc4free; 05-15-2019 at 15:26.

  2. #12

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    It also made me remember that my xpac seek outside pack probably was one
    of the reasons my pack was so much heavier coming out after the NC storm
    a couple weeks ago and a plan for alleviating it from happening again.
    Sometimes we think these new fabrics negate careful planning and care.

    Again thank you for the post.

  3. #13
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something. You're telling me that if my 9.1 ounce HG Winter Palace retains 50% water it will weigh 18.1 ounces until it dries out. And my 30D Silnylon Superfly, which weighs 19 ounces, will weigh 38 ounces if it also retains 50% water until it dries out?

    Wow - thanks for the information. But what am I supposed to do with that information?
    Math error noted elsewhere...

    What I generally do as I scroll through post headings is to skip those that don't interest me, and for those that do interest me I read but don't comment unless I have something to add.

    But that's me.
    UL, because nobody ever asks "How can I make my pack heavier?"

    Simplicity boils down to two steps: Identify the essential. Eliminate the rest. Leo Babauta

  4. #14
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something. You're telling me that if my 9.1 ounce HG Winter Palace retains 50% water it will weigh 18.1 ounces until it dries out. And my 30D Silnylon Superfly, which weighs 19 ounces, will weigh 38 ounces if it also retains 50% water until it dries out?

    Wow - thanks for the information. But what am I supposed to do with that information?
    I'll tell you what you can do with that information. You can become so disgusted with your Dyneema tarp and it's retention of water that you decide to give up on the whole thing and promptly bequeath your Winter Palace to yours truly.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

  5. #15
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rweb82 View Post
    I'll tell you what you can do with that information. You can become so disgusted with your Dyneema tarp and it's retention of water that you decide to give up on the whole thing and promptly bequeath your Winter Palace to yours truly.
    Send me your address and I'll send you . . . . a KitKat bar.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #16
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    Send me your address and I'll send you . . . . a KitKat bar.
    Regular or King size? Shipping included?

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

  7. #17
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rweb82 View Post
    Regular or King size? Shipping included?
    Give me a break
    Give me a break
    Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar!
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #18
    aka 'Extra' MikekiM's Avatar
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    I don't have the capacity to decipher those numbers. When I first got into business I made it a point to surround myself with people who could do what I couldn't or didn't want to...

    I hike with cmoulder any chance I get and learn something every time.


    Does the condition of the dcf fabric have anything to do with the amount of surface tension? In other words, will new smooth out-of-the-box fabric hold more or less surface water than well broken in, crinkly dcf?
    * The difficulty of finding any given trail marker is directly proportional to the importance of the consequences of failing to find it.

    * I can lift all the weight I want at the gym. Walking shouldn't be a workout. ~ Just Bill


  9. #19
    cmc4free's Avatar
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    That's a good question, and I would think yes, the more crinkled and broken in, the more retained surface water. And as cmoulder has pointed out in other threads, DCF that is more broken in probably starts to allow some moisture inside the laminated outer layers where the Dyneema fibers are.

  10. #20
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Your Deja Vu isn't mere voodoo...

    .74 OSY x 40% = .296 (OSY of retained water)
    .51 OSY x 50% = .255 (OSY of retained water)

    So within reason- you basically retained the same weight per sqyd.

    That jives perfectly well with the idea of retention (rather than absorption). I'm sure a DCF expert may disagree somewhat... but more or less my understanding is that the surface material is the same and it's the grid of dyneema fiber that is the weight difference. At least in these weights of DCF we are discussing.

    The best description I know of regarding DCF construction- is just picture mosquito netting built from dyneema fiber with a layer of saran wrap on each side. Then heat press it and you're done.
    You simply vary the weight of the mosquito netting, with the outer layer more or less a similar thickness for tarp materials. Yar- there's more to it but good enough.

    That also then ties into Rob's testing of the Polycro sheet- as that literally has nothing but simple surface tension and zero chance of absorbing water.

    Polycryo floor
    Bone dry, 1.8 ounces
    soaked/shaken, 3.0 ounces (1.2 ounces of water left) (1.2/1.8= 67%)
    Wiped w/ chamois, 2.0 ounces (0.2 ounces of water left) (.2/1.8=11%)

    But assuming he might have done a better job on the smaller surface area with his chamois (or lost more in the process in colorado's low humidity)... you're still in the ball park.

    Unless you literally squeegee off every drop of water- you won't get it off.
    Generally speaking- you probably don't want to give it an extra violent shake off either. (at least not the .51)

    Overall- it is interesting (as was Rob's efforts).


    I've never been totally sold on DCF (technically I've never used DCF as I wasn't sold when it was still Cuben)... but I'd like to revisit it in the future.
    The general packing up issue (bulk, water retetention, avoiding creasing/wear patterns, etc.) as well as a pretty viable alternative in the .93 OSY Membrane Sil-poly has kept me away for the most part.

    It seems to dry very well- so if I were to do a head to head- that's the fabric I'd try as the comparison.
    https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collect...mbrane-silpoly

    I haven't tried that newer .7 ish rockywoods material... that might be a good candidate as well... though I don't recall how it did with some of the BPL crowd.
    I thought there were some problems with the aged HH results- but I could be wrong.
    https://www.rockywoods.com/7D-Ultral...p-Nylon-Fabric

    I think the other drawback... I feel a bit safer dangle drying my tarp off the back of my pack while walking with a nylon tarp.
    Since the DCF is basically a plastic bag- that water isn't going anywhere until you pitch it. Maybe pure imagination- but it seems like the fabric based tarps can still evaporate off a decent bit of water if stuffed into a mesh packpanel even if you're in a spot you can't dry them a little as you go.

    While DCF repairs are easy... Malto pointed out at one point that one might compare the weight of heavily patched .51 vs .74 after a thru hike as well
    Even moreso when you're talking cheap *** hikers who use duct tape rather than DCF repair tape to do the patching... so perhaps a tape retention test is in order!
    He told me about his attempts at .51 pants that literally wore themselves apart just from walking in them and gave up on the DCF rain pant project.

    I like to push as much as the next guy... but like to find that balance point as well.
    The Membrane has done pretty well for me on that front and even in the humid midwest or AT regions has seemed to dry fairly easily for me.

    Having a smaller tarp for my bridges helps as well to mitigate some of the 'hit' of the heavier fabric. 7-8 sqyd vs a 11-13yard winter tarp makes that an easier call.

    one of these days I'd like to do a hybrid- maybe a .51 DCF with a Membrane perimeter in my stakeless tarp. That would mean a bit better protection where you need it but lower weight where you don't.
    Too many ideas- too little time, lol.

    Course the TL;DR version is pretty obvious too-
    If you pack up wet **** it will weigh more!
    Thanks for doing the math, JB... it's nice when reality and theory dovetail!

    I hope you get to test some of your hybrid ideas, but there are so many projects and not enough time and resources for all of them.

    I've had a "drying party" in my den this afternoon and evening and I will leave that tarp spread out for a solid 24 hours to make sure all moisture is gone from all the creases, guy lines and grosgrain bits.
    UL, because nobody ever asks "How can I make my pack heavier?"

    Simplicity boils down to two steps: Identify the essential. Eliminate the rest. Leo Babauta

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