Change suspension length or raise tree connection?

[cougarmeat]

Maybe I have too much time on my hands today, but I was thinking ... we talk about raising the foot end of the hammock about 6 inches (or in the case of the WBBB, about 18 inches) higher than the head end to keep from sliding down to the foot end. But is there a "proper" way to do that. For example, if you initially setup so any ridge line would be level, coming off the tree at 30 degrees, then you lengthened one side of the suspension and shortened the other, they would still be coming off the tree at the same angle. The ends of the hammock would just be at a different point along that 30 degree line. But it seems it would keep the same sag (because the angles would be the same).

But if you kept the suspension length the same and raised the connection point at the foot end, lowered it at the head end, then your head would be lower but both the angle of at the foot end and the angle at the head end would be different. Don't know if that would change the sag, but it seems it would change the "pull" forces so they would be different from the original 30 degrees.

Is there any common agreement on this: lengthening and shorting the suspension length vs moving one (or both) end higher or lower on the tree? or are the difference between those to methods so small it doesn't matter at all?

[sidneyhornblower]

For example, if you initially setup so any ridge line would be level, coming off the tree at 30 degrees, then you lengthened one side of the suspension and shortened the other, they would still be coming off the tree at the same angle.

Are you sure about that statement? If you've got 30 degree angles initially and then do the lengthen/shorten step, I can't picture the angles staying the same. Won't they change? The shorter suspension end will be a steeper angle and the longer will be shallower, right? Seems like you'd have to move the anchor points to keep the 30 degree angles if the suspension length changes.

Caveat: I've had only one cup of coffee so far and may still be dimensionally challenged in my thinking, so feel free to make fun of me and point out some obvious error I'm missing.

[Snaps]

...if you initially setup so any ridge line would be level, coming off the tree at 30 degrees, then you lengthened one side of the suspension and shortened the other, they would still be coming off the tree at the same angle. The ends of the hammock would just be at a different point along that 30 degree line.

I find that taking things to their absolute (and sometimes impossible) extremes often brings me clarity.

In the case of hammock suspension length as you describe it... what happens if the length on one end is zero? Is the other end still at an angle of 30° when lengthened? The answer is that it's possible that the other end is 30°, but that's only one of a whole range of indiscrete possibilities. With the head end at zero, if length x at your foot end gives you a 30° suspension angle, x plus anything gives you greater than 30° and your foot end goes down. x minus anything gives you less than 30° and your foot end goes up.

The bigger point is that the range of hammock end heights effected by changing only the length of the suspension is much, much smaller than the range of hammock end heights effected by raising and lowering the suspension attachment point, even at a fixed suspension angle. I'm sure trigonometry explains this somehow.

I've had to come back and edit this a few times now because I kept using "less than" and "greater than" symbols that the forum was reading as tags... so it was dropping whole phrases and didn't make any sense (it might be a bit generous to say it even made sense before that).

[Klaussinator]

Yes, lengthening or shortening the suspension unevenly side-to-side WILL change the hang angles of the suspension lines. With an empty hammock, you won’t notice it much because the hammock isn’t drastically heavier than the suspension lines that extend to the trees. So you’ll see a gentle, continuous curve (a parabola) from tree to tree, just like if you let a rope sag between two points on a wall when you lay out cat cuts for a tarp. Here’s a simple way to see the angles change:

While your rope on the wall has a nice even sag, take your finger and pull down in the center of the rope, midway between the anchor points. You’ll turn the curve into a “V” with both side angles the same. This is a simplified view of what happens when we lay in our hammock with our butt midway between the two trees.

If you shorten the suspension on one side, then you have shifted the hammock itself toward that tree. The center of your weight (your butt) has now moved closer to one tree and further from the other.

Go back to your rope on the wall: when you move your finger toward one side, just like your butt moved closer to one tree, you’ll see the rope change from a symmetrical “V” to an unsymmetrical “V” where the lengths AND the angles of the sides have changed.

SUSPENSION ANGLE INCREASES AS THE WEIGHT IS SHIFTED THAT DIRECTION.


All that being said, I don’t really give a flip what your hangle is! Find the setup that works for you and your hammock and just enjoy the hang! When I get a chance to enjoy the woods, math is the last thing on my mind. YMMV, but that’s my 02¢

-Klauss

[cougarmeat]

>Yes, lengthening or shortening the suspension unevenly side-to-side WILL change the hang angles of the suspension lines.

In my imagination, I drew two vertical lines - trees. Then, off these two trees, I drew "suspension" lines coming off at 30 degrees. Then, I drew a horizontal line that touched those lines coming off at 30 degrees.

So that's a hammock suspended at 30 degrees and perfectly level. Now if you imagine moving that horizontal line (hammock) so it is the same length, but connecting higher up on one of the 30 degree lines but further down on the other, those suspension lines are still at 30 degrees. What will move is the "pocket" or sag point of the hammock. It will shift from the middle of the hammock towards the lower end. Now, having carefully pictured that, I can see it would bring my sitting height (the pocket) lower. So that would mean something has to be raised.

Here is why this is VERY IMPORTANT. We often camp with or around people with tents. And we, as hammockers, have an obligation to put our hammocks up faster and with less hassle than they do. For a few years now I've been using Daisy Chain. So simple; wrap around the tree and clip into the best loop. But as I get more picky, I sometimes find I want to adjust a half step and I use and Amsteel loop for that. These days I find myself thinking more about switching back to an adjustable webbing/buckles suspension.

Though it seems like "obsession", I am not "obsessing" about it. I am just trying to do this dance as smoothly as possible. Once the theoretical hammock is level, coming off at 30 degrees, and at the desired height above the ground, there seems just a few choices: 1) raise the foot end or lower head end at the tree 2) keep the connection points at the tree the same and shorten the foot end suspension along with lengthening the head end suspension 3) shortening just the foot end suspension or lengthening just the head end suspension.

The goal is to keep the same sit height above ground - though the sag pocket can shift a bit - while getting the foot end higher - with the minimum number of adjustments.

These days, I connect to the trees with the foot end a little higher. Then I test the tension on the hammock ridge line along with testing "feet on the ground height". If the tension is right, but the sit height is off, then I move the connection on the trees up or down the same distance; that's the simple scenario. If the tension on the ridgeline is too tight or loose, at that point I start to "fiddle". But by that time my adventure partner has his ground sheet down, tent spread out and is putting in his tent poles. About the only thing I can do for more time is misplace my stake hammer (he'll want to borrow it).

[Yeah, yeah, yeah - we used to use rocks or pound stakes down with small logs. But I can carry the weight of a plastic camp hammer for pounding stakes and everyone, after giving me grief, quietly comes over and asks to borrow it.]

I suppose I could just let the hammock's structural ridge line do it's "structural" thing instead of using it as a measuring stick and messing with suspension lengths to get it that perfect YouTube tautness. I've never been able to get the tension shown in YouTube videos - where the structural ridge line looks horizontal with the hammock empty, and the persons sits in it and can tweak the line, easily, to 90 degrees. For me, to be able to make that 90 degree bend when I'm in the hammock, means when I get out, the ridge line is drooping down in a very un-youtube fashion. Maybe that's because I am only moving in steps of 3 (using my "half" loop), or 5 or 6 inches (depending upon the daisy chain).

[TrailSlug]

Yep too much time For me I've never "looked" for a 30 degree angle as I simply find a couple of trees that are between 12-14 ft and hang my suspension about the height of my head (I'm 5'9") on the head end, a tad bit higher on the foot end and it seems to always work out. It seems a lot of hangers want scientific numbers to go off but really it's not all that hard nor scientific. My Warbonnet Ridgerunner is even easier just hang both ends about head high and lower the hammock to where it's about "seat" high and your done.

[Klaussinator]

Yepp ^^^

Sure there is science behind anything structural and plenty of math to back it up, even if it is just to hang your butt in a piece of fabric. These are things I use in the design stage when I’m in my shop, but I refuse to let them get in the way when I’m in the woods.

To each his own, I suppose. But for me…. hanging is a way to let my mind catch a break from all the work. Sometimes there’s much to gain by allowing yourself a moment of grace to just keep it simple.

-Klauss

[cmoulder]

Yep too much time For me I've never "looked" for a 30 degree angle as I simply find a couple of trees that are between 12-14 ft and hang my suspension about the height of my head (I'm 5'9") on the head end, a tad bit higher on the foot end and it seems to always work out. It seems a lot of hangers want scientific numbers to go off but really it's not all that hard nor scientific. My Warbonnet Ridgerunner is even easier just hang both ends about head high and lower the hammock to where it's about "seat" high and your done.

This roughly how I go about it and it nearly always comes out good enough, although I like trees about 15-18ft apart to give a little breathing room... for the tarp! No problem with my 10ft hammock itself, of course, but ith an 11' tarp ridge line, 12 feet is pretty tight. I've done it in a pinch a few times, however.

[OCDave]

...
...
Is there any common agreement on this: lengthening and shorting the suspension length vs moving one (or both) end higher or lower on the tree? or are the difference between those to methods so small it doesn't matter at all?

If it feels good, keep doing it. If not, change it up.

Good Luck

[MikekiM]

I haven't looked at the suspension angle in ages.

I look for trees that are about seven to eight paces. Head end goes at just about the top of my head and the foot end goes as high as I can reach. I like the foot end at least 12" to 18" higher than the head. Get in and check the ridge line.. It's usually good enough.

I'm not chest pounding here, but the guys with the tents will NEVER set up (or break down) as fast as we can!!